The Great Metric System Debate.

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To all those who are traditionalists quit bitchin.

Use your brain god gave you and work your problems out mathematically. Math is a universal law. Metric, imperial it’s all the same.

The Egyptians built the pyramids to a square x height ratio with a wheel running round a wheel from a cow cart. They did not know what P-r-sq was, it worked.

God! Even calipers today convert metric to imperial at the flick of a button, how easy can you get it.

don’t mean to come off crass it is what it is.

Anthony.
 
I prefer metric as its what I'm used to but I find a lot of the stuff I make needs to be made in imperial, especially when I'm fixing something.
I've always in the past had to convert everything to metric and work to that, mainly because I only had metric micrometers.
I finally got myself an imperial M&W micrometer the other week so now when I make something in imperial I don't need to convert it.

The bottom line is the only time I get upset with the difference between imperial and metric is when I find I need a 10mm bar or drill and I've only got a 3/8 inch, or the other way round.
 
Hi kcmillin
I agree with your daughter...an hair cut of few centimeters is chipper than one of few inch quarts.... Rof} Rof} Rof} . Please use metrics I'm really bothered :rant: :rant: :rant: by the convertions from inch to millimeters, doing some works originally drown in inches, for reaching a good matching despite of the abundant decimals.... ??? ???
Best regards
Paolo
:big: :big: :big: Rof} Rof} Rof}
 
ieezitin said:
To all those who are traditionalists quit bitchin.

Use your brain god gave you and work your problems out mathematically. Math is a universal law. Metric, imperial it’s all the same.

The Egyptians built the pyramids to a square x height ratio with a wheel running round a wheel from a cow cart. They did not know what P-r-sq was, it worked.

God! Even calipers today convert metric to imperial at the flick of a button, how easy can you get it.

don’t mean to come off crass it is what it is.

Anthony.

Anthony THAT is a PERFECT answer! :bow: :bow: :bow:

A size is a size. It doesn't matter if it is in tenths of a centimeter or thirty secondths of an inch.
Either way you will hit it or miss it.

You can't blame the measurement system for making it more difficult.
;)

Rick
 
I'm with Bob, being on the wrong side of 50 I think and visualise in imperial measurements. I can visualise inches, feet etc but can't do the same in metric, I find myself converting back to imperial in my head to get an understanding of what is being described. All my welding work is in feet and inches.

Same goes for fuel mileage - I buy fuel in litres, read the kilometres off the speedo then convert them back to gallons and miles to get mpg. I know that 20-25 mpg is good for my truck, I have no idea what 10 l/100 km is.

Strangely enough though, for someone raised on imperial, I find that when I'm working on the lathe, but only for for small work (under 1/4"), I gravitate to metric - I have no idea why this is, it just happens.

We went through the same thing in 1966 - my grandmother never worked out decimal currency. Until the day she popped her clogs I had to convert dollars and cents back to the "real" money for her every time.
 
Hmm ... I'm well into my 60's, but I'm equally comfortable with both systems - just depends on what I'm doing, with what material at any given time. I was bought up on Imperial but worked in both the building and fabrication industries at during the era of the change.
 
mklotz said:
So, Dean, you use a micrometer calibrated in 1/128 ths of an inch?
Hey, are you going to laugh at my (1932 vintage) 1/256th's micrometer?
 
mklotz said:
This would be funny were it not for the fact that many Americans actually believe these specious "arguments" against the metric system.
Marv, Until you've watched French, German, and Japanese engineers scrambling across 5 acres of land looking for the pieces from their inflator that failed because they misread the powers of 10 in their Pascal calculations, you don't know just how "good" the metric system is. Why is it that so many "metric countries" have changed from N-m to kGf-cm for torque? Have you ever tried to apply an M10 (X1.5) screw to a cast aluminum part?

These all indicate that the "mesh" of Newton-derived units is pretty poor. It can be truly funny to look at the rework budget for companies that have gone "all metric" as they fail to realize that there are still five different and incompatible standards for tolerance and allowance with respect to metric screwthreads. I have lived through three fairly major adjustments to basic units of the metric system -- it is still a work in progress at best.
 
Lew,

The fact that a bunch of engineers can't do arithmetic reliably in their chosen measurement system is hardly an indictment of the system. If it were, the Imperial system would be long gone. You're not much of an engineer if you don't do order-of-magnitude and sensibility checks on what you compute.

Arguments about the engineering uses of the system, e.g., thread standards, are equally hollow. Practical thread standards can be calculated and expressed in any measurement system. You're damning the system because of the use some humans have made of it. Measurement systems are not collections of engineering standards.

I do agree that the current metric practice of using only 10^(3*n) multiples is ill-conceived and we should return to the 10^n progression. Nevertheless, the advantage of the metric system concept lies in its internal consistency, the simple relations among units, the logical connection between weight and volume, and the explicit separation of force and mass.

As a challenge, sit down and design your own ideal measurement system - not a system of engineering standards but a generally useful measurement system. I'm betting that, if you do a careful job of it you'll arrive at something remarkably similar to the MKS system.
 
This debate has been raging on and off for a 100 years in the english Model Engineer magazine,and still comes up now and then.
I agree with Marv that metric is a more logical system,and most countries are now metricated or working towards it.
But then,I would say that,having been brought up on metric,and having to learn imperial when I first arrived in nz in the early 70's,that metric is much easier to grasp.
If you can count to ten,you can deal with metric.
Of course,I DO have metric and imperial drill sets,and taps and dies for MM,BSW,UNF,UNC,BSB,BA,and god knows what else :big:
 
mklotz said:
The fact that a bunch of engineers can't do arithmetic reliably in their chosen measurement system is hardly an indictment of the system. If it were, the Imperial system would be long gone. You're not much of an engineer if you don't do order-of-magnitude and sensibility checks on what you compute.

Marv,

That is the entire point of my rant. If I am working with stress in psi I know that the answer I am looking for is going to end up being 1000's of psi (i.e. ksi). If I am working with stress in Pascals, my answer could be valid as MPa or GPa or even (with some of the newer materials) TPa. There is no immediate feedback as to the order of magnitude value that sends me looking for errors or mistakes. This is as true for engineers who have never used anything but the metric system (such as the French, German, and Japanese engineers I worked with while developing automotive airbag restraint systems) as it is for anyone else.

Arguments about the engineering uses of the system, e.g., thread standards, are equally hollow. Practical thread standards can be calculated and expressed in any measurement system. You're damning the system because of the use some humans have made of it. Measurement systems are not collections of engineering standards.

You bet your sweet @$$ I condemn uses where the application fails to provide consistent results. I built radomes for NATO many years ago (i.e. back when there were five separate "standards" for metric threads). The system, built, qualified, and working fine in the Canadian north had to be completely redone when we went to install it in Norway (which uses the DIN standard set) and all the calculations redone to account for the different thread pitches and tolerances -- and redone again when it came to French installation!

While things are somewhat better today with respect to major diameters and pitches, the tolerances and allowances (which you need to know when applying critical loads to threaded connections) are still based on varying standards. (This is one reason that the aerospace industry everywhere uses Unified National fasteners.) Under current ISO practices and standards, a German made bolt has a 42% chance that it will not mate with a Japanese made nut. You bet your sweet @$$ that this gets me up on my soap box screaming!

I do agree that the current metric practice of using only 10^(3*n) multiples is ill-conceived and we should return to the 10^n progression. Nevertheless, the advantage of the metric system concept lies in its internal consistency, the simple relations among units, the logical connection between weight and volume, and the explicit separation of force and mass.

And this is the ultimate failure of the metric system! The unit of force, Newton, is so poorly meshed (1 N = .225 lbf) that the kgf (kg-force) has begun to supersede it. I purchased a job-lot of 200 metric torque wrenches for NASA back in 1982. They came from France and had their calibration in kg-m rather than N-m. Nobody (but me) thought that this was strange (or wrong)! I just did a critical structure design for a Japanese company. They insisted that all torques be specified in kgf-cm.

When you go to the store in (say) France and purchase a kg of (say) cabbage, the measurement they use when portioning out your cabbage measures force -- not mass! As a result, the only advantage of the metric system (differentiation between force and mass) is lost!

The "logical connection between weight and volume" is density. The "problem" is that kg/m³ becomes a massively unwieldy number in a hurry. Analysis systems that are supposed to be metric (SolidWorks, Catia, ProEngineer, etc.) have started using kg/cm³ over the past two decades. The metric tables of densities use kg/m³ -- and the ease with which that value gets screwed up is amazing -- even for engineers who have never used anything but the metric system (I see this all the time).

As I said several posts ago, metric lengths do not bother me in the slightest. Neither does Celsius temperature (though I am still personally PO'ed at having bought into metric tooling at the time when the change was made to the base metre and Centigrade was replaced with Celsius). That's all well and good, but the Newton and all the units that derive from it suck as units of measure in the real world -- and the proof of that is the prevalence of kgf-derived units appearing to replace it -- even in "totally metric" countries!

One of the companies I have done a lot of work for coined the phrase, "There's the few and then there's Lew." I admit to the truth of that statement. I design mission critical components all the time. The strength of threaded connections is often the deciding factor as to whether or not a design works or fails. There are nine theoretical combinations of size, tolerance, and allowance based factors that determine a Unified National thread series connection's properties. (In actual practice, there are five.) There are (4^5 =) 1024 actual combinations of size, tolerance, and allowance that must be considered when applying metric threads in a similar situation based on the "standards" as they sit today.

This is why I say that the metric system is a set of non-standards!
 
I have tried to keep up with the posts, forgive me if I say something already posted.

Just this week I had gone out to the shop to do some quick guestimates on the floor area available for a project we are planning and I had walked out the distance using my feet for a quick measure. The drawing did not have to be to scale just proportional. I was helping my daughter work on some math conversions based on inches, feet, yards, gallons, and so on and it occured to me today that if I were using the metric system to what I had done at work it may not be so easy (i.e. If I wanted a quick measure of somehting using my forearm I could then relate that to someone else in a cubit's measure). How does someone who is used to the metric system apply the same situations to a measurement in metric?
 
When you go to the store in (say) France and purchase a kg of (say) cabbage, the measurement they use when portioning out your cabbage measures force -- not mass! As a result, the only advantage of the metric system (differentiation between force and mass) is lost!

How in the blue blazes do you come up with this? If I put a cabbage on the scales and the needle deflects to 1kg that's weight (mass?). If I hurl it at someone's head and it knocks their hat off that's force.
 
tel said:
How in the blue blazes do you come up with this? If I put a cabbage on the scales and the needle deflects to 1kg that's weight (mass?). If I hurl it at someone's head and it knocks their hat off that's force.

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Tel,

In physics weight and mass are two distinctly different things.

In Newton's famous equation,

F = m * a

mass is the thing that relates the applied acceleration (a) to the force (F) generated by this acceleration acting on the mass.

On the earth's surface, the acceleration is roughly constant at about 10 m/sec^2 (9.75... if you want to be exact). We use the letter 'g' to denote this acceleration. So, Newton's law at the surface of the earth becomes:

W = m * g

where 'W' represents the weight of the object, the *force* it would experience in the 'g' field of the earth. If we took this same mass to the moon where the value of g is about 1/6 of the earth value, W would be 1/6 of its value on earth. The mass is the same but the apparent weight is different because the acceleration is different. (This is why you see the astronauts hopping about like giddy schoolgirls in the videos from the Apollo mission.)

Force is measured in Newtons,

1 Newton = 1 kg * 1 m/sec^2

So, if I put my 1 kg of cabbage on the scale it generates a force of 1 * 10 = 10 Newtons which acts on the spring to compress it by some amount. I can label that deflection point "1 kg" but what the scale is really measuring is the 10 Newtons generated by a 1 kg cabbage in a 10 m/sec^2 force field. Take that same cabbage and scale to the moon and the needle will only deflect to read 1/6 kg. The mass hasn't changed but the force it can exert on the scale has decreased.
 
Thanks for that Marv, even this dumb ol' Aussie could follow it. I might end up knowing something yet.
 
Tel,

Wherever you are in the universe you will have the same mass ?lb/?kg. Your weight, (the force your mass exerts on your location), will be determined by the gravity of your location. Outer space nil, surface of the moon ~1/6 of your weight on earth, on earth your weight is ?lbf/?kgf, or, (?lb x 32 poundals/?Newtons), (at sea level), your mass remains at ?lb/?kg. All of this because Force = Mass x Acceleration.

Mind you outer space would be a pretty grave location ::)

The Brits thought up poundals in 1879 but other than for the type of work that Lew undertakes, it never had common acceptance, any more than the Newton has today. Probably why we are all confused.

Best Regards
Bob
 
Seems to me that this is a consequence from the "Tower of Babel" days.

SAM
 
A logical measurement system should require no unit adjustment constant in the

F = m * a

equation. What that means is that 1 of whatever unit you use for mass times 1 of whatever unit you use for acceleration should equal 1 of whatever unit you use for force. This clean simplicity is built into the metric system because

1 Newton = 1 kg * 1 m/sec^2

Since a pound of force accelerates a pound of mass at about 32 ft/sec^2 (the acceleration of gravity, g), we can scale down the unit of force to compensate, giving us one that accelerates 1 pound mass at 1 ft/sec^2 (rather than at 32 ft/sec^2); and that is the poundal, which is approximately 1/32 pounds of force.

The poundal-as-force, pound-as-mass system is contrasted with an alternate system in which pounds are used as force (pounds-force), and instead, the mass unit is rescaled by a factor of 32. That is, one pound-force will accelerate one pound-mass at 32 ft/sec^2; we can scale up the unit of mass to compensate, which will be accelerated by 1 ft/sec^2 (rather than 32 ft/sec^2) given the application of one pound force; this gives us a unit of mass called the slug, which is about 32 pounds mass.

You only need to do about six kinematic problems using poundals and slugs to be instantly converted to the simplicity of the metric system's explicit separation of force and mass. (In fact, it's been so long since I used those abortions that I had to review them in Wikipedia, from which the previous two paragraphs are copied.)

Newtons may be out of favor in the engineering community but, trust me, in the physics and aerospace community they're alive and thriving.

The most important thing to take away from these discussions is the distinction between a measurement *system* and the application of that system to a field of human endeavor, e.g., engineering. If the common metric threads are ill-defined, that's an application problem, not a flaw in the metric system. Sheet metal gage numbers and numbered/letter drills are idiotic but they're not an indictment of the Imperial system. Rather, the people who established those standards didn't do their jobs well. The systems provided the means to do it right; the people failed. Far too many people who are damning metric are really upset about engineering mistakes and don't really understand what a measurement system is or what features it requires.

Also, get rid of the notion that every measured quantity has to come out to be a number between zero and 100 in your measurement system. It won't, no matter what you do - think about astronomy and cosmology or quantum mechanics. If Pascals are too small for you, use kPa or mPa (but make the relationship a power of ten) or allow your system to have derived units like the bar (100000 Pascal) that retain the original unit and a power of ten.

Then, once you appreciate these subtleties, sit down and design an imaginary measurement system of your own, keeping in mind the breadth of human activity it must encompass. When you're done, compare the salient features of your system to the metric system. I contend that your system, if done thoughtfully, will include most of the *features* of the metric system.
 
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