TB3 - Can it be resurected?

[Brass_Machine]

So a long while back, we had started a THREAD for a 3rd team build. Due to circumstances outside control, it just kind of fell apart for some people.

I have been in conversation with joe d and KustomKB. We have come to the conclusion that we want to resurrect this build. There are at least 3 of us in. Does any of the original members want in? Anyone new that wants a piece? The thread for the original role call is HERE.

Speak up and be heard

Eric

 

[Cedge]

Pat....
You're perception is correct. Each participant builds a number of a specific part and ships them to one member who acts as a distribution point for all the others on the project. Sadly, life, machine failures, procrastination or one or more participants getting overwhelmed tends to bring these group builds to a staggering halt. Add in a tendency to underestimate the complexity of the chosen project and the work load that making multiple parts can create and you get a recipe for, if not outright failure, at least a general lack of successful completion.

I believe that only one of the TB's ever produced all the parts required to give everyone a working engine. They were a big thing for a short time and then sort of faded away under their own weight. Not meaning to discourage anyone from the effort, but carefully weigh your available time, skill level, the expense of metals and your commitment before jumping in over one's head. Any one of the above can quickly become a frustration for every other builder on the team and make things a wee bit awkward, should you be unable to deliver.

Steve

 

[Brass_Machine]

Hi Pat,

The goal is for everyone participating to have an engine. The other goal is to build an extra 2 (1 for charity auction and 1 for shows). We didn't reach those goals on the 1st two builds. Too many things fell apart. We want to do it this time. Figure the 1st to runs were to find out where out mistakes are. I think we know enough to correct them now.

Eric

**read what Steve said above. I think it can be fixed.

 

[Groomengineering]

Eric-

Count me as interested! Thm:

Pat-

IIRC the build was the Kerzel made so famous recently by Mr. Rupnow and Mr. Tel. Plans available at http://www.floridaame.org/GalleryPages/g1h0106.htm

Cheers

Jeff

 

[Tin Falcon]

For the record :I consider TB1 to have been a success. !!
GOAL #1 was met all team members received the parts to assemble a working engine.
Goal #2 work as a team also met. Great support good communication. Excellent execution of parts !
fit and finish excellent.
Two "extra: engines were completed as well. One went to a team member who had to bail out for health reasons.
so we have one engine to be assembled in my possession.
Goal #3 time IIRC we set a 3 month completion time for this one. This time went way over. if anyone was to blame for that it would be me. some procrastination some work life pressure. and in my defense an act of god slowed things down (A lightning storm caused a power surge and damaged the power boards of my mini lathe and mini mill.) I think I finally got the last of the parts out around February.
The team build concept does work . I does require commitment , perseverance and patience. If one stumbles or fails things will slow down or stop. But others can step in and life goes on. It can be done folks.
I do not know if all of the engines have been assembled but several are running and have had no complaints .
Tin

 

[Brass_Machine]

Tin is right! I completely forgot about a few of those things

And Pat, there is no reason you couldn't do one of the easier parts, such as the base?

Eric

 

[cl350rr]

Estimated time of completion December 08, you guys are right in line with my ability to complete an engine.

A project that siezed to a stop on the first run, odds are against successful completion on the second attempt...

I can't resist...I am interested.

Randel

 

[Tin Falcon]

Eric can correct me if needed but based on my observations and my experience with TB1 this is how I see it.
The plan set has been selected. go to http://www.floridaame.org/ select gallery then single cylinder horizontal engines. look for the photo of Dave Kerzels HHM1 engine click on that photo. then look for the DRAWING SET link and the BUILD NOTES link . these are pdf files you can download. look over then prints and read the notes .
Sorry but the Fame site does not support direct page links for some reason. If you can not find the prints PM me and I will get you a set.
Decide what parts you feel comfortable making.
You will be responsible for buying the material for the parts you make and you will pay shipping of those parts to others on the team.
Team one build members were literally all over the world. One member in Italy and one in Canada. The rest various parts of the USA.
Eric and I were co captains on TB1 I believe Eric is team captain for this build. He will make the part assignments distribute mailing addresses and give distribution instructions.
In TB 1 some of the larger parts were divided between two people.
Like I said this concept does work We proved it with TB1 . It does require organization on the part of the team captain. Lots of communication , perseverance and patience from all the team members. Local building is nice but most of us are lucky to have one member within an hours drive much less ten. Look over all the TB1 threads And see how it worked. I Admit The execution was not perfect and if there was a weak link it was me. but somehow we persevered and made it happen.
Tin

 

[1hand]

I would be interested if any of the parts are left. I'm still a beginner, but would love to do this and end up with an engine. I will be laid off from work in a month or so for a couple months, so I should be able to knock out a dozen or so of a certain part.

Let me know.
Matt

 

[Brass_Machine]

Hey Pat. Understandable. Maybe each builder can be responsible for their own flywheels??

Pretty busy over the next couple of days. I will sit down and look at the parts list etc.. come up with a decent plan. Maybe 8 to 10 people?

Eric

 

[Brass_Machine]

Some parts are already done. joe d busted some quality parts out. I gotta look through my notes and see what he did.

Members in the States would ship parts out to other members in the States. For the guys in other parts of the world would ship their parts to me (for people in the States) and I will disburse. Likewise, I will gather parts for these people and then ship one package to them with all their stuff.

But will be worked out once we see where everyone is located at.

Eric

 

[Groomengineering]

Hi all!

It seems to me that the parts list should be broken down into sub-assemblies that should be made by the same person, i.e. base/side plates/bearing caps, cylinder/cylinder liner, head/valve guides/valves/springs, etc. Anything that needs tight tolerances with another part.

Shipping in the states shouldn't be too bad, $5.00 flat rate box up to 70 lbs, shipping overseas gets kinda expensive though so maybe we could take up a collection...

On an equally premature note... : With 20+ flywheels to make, would it be sacrilege to use cast grey iron flywheels? I've been in touch with a local foundry who assures me nothing is too big, nothing is too small. Just a thought.

Cheers

Jeff

 

[Brass_Machine]

Jeff,

You are right. The one who ends up making the pistons, will end up making the cylinders. Stuff like that. OFC, it all depends on how many want in for us to figure out the divisions.

I am think that everyone should cover their own flywheel because of the expense of shipping so many. 20+ would be too many. I think the build will consist of 10 people or so.

Eric

 

[Groomengineering]

Sounds good Eric. Thm:

Jeff

 

[joe d]

Back when this started, I was on line for regulators and points. I got the regulators done, including 2 sets of springs each to allow for a minor amount of adjustment. See the original thread here. The points, sadly, only got as far as the fixed side, I never did source the beryllium copper for the flexing side, and looking at the completed bits of points I've got on hand, I'd be embarrassed to send them out (man o man my soldering was crap on those things....usually do better than that :wall

If this gets back off the ground, it would seem like a good idea for me to do the bobbins that the regulator arms go into, that way I can ensure that the groove in the bobbin fits the arms as built ;D

I would certainly be happy to see this moving again, watching Brian and Tel's build of this thing has been reminding me that I've got a lot of some of the parts required :big:

Cheers, Joe

 

[Brass_Machine]

Perhaps since we have some inexperienced guys interested in doing a TB, it might be better to start with a more simple engine. Another simple steamer? I know I would be more comfortable in doing this.

Thoughts?

Eric

 

[kvom]

Here's my take. The problem with TBs is not the complexity of the engine or the number of people, it's the timeframe. The longer the deadline drags out the more likely it is that procrastination and/or life events will get in the way of people completing their parts.

My thoughts on a TB3:

1) Assign a fixed signup date and a firm 6-month completion date.
2) Assign parts to team members based on their equipment/experience/preferences/available on-hand materials. Heavier parts such as flywheels can be make-your-own.
3) Require team members to have half of their assignments done within 3 months, and post pictures on the site (or better yet, mail to the coordinator). No progress? Drop from the team and reassign parts.

 

[Cedge]

I'm not particularly interested in getting into a team build, myself but I'll add a thought to the mix. I've built an IC engine and hang out with several guys who have built many of them. What I've learned from the experience is that an IC engine is not for the faint of heart and can be a real nightmare for a novice machinist. The relationship between components is critical and missing the dimensional mark on one piece effects numerous other parts that then have to be modified to compensate. A team build is going to make this rather problematic.

There is a lot of hand fitting required, even when you get all the dimensions dead spot on. Getting mine running took weeks of exacting fitting, not to mention the frustrating learning curve required for setting up the ignition timing and carb. Even the guys who build them regularly will agree that the start up phase can take weeks of patient effort and some engines simply refuse to ever run satisfactorily. In short, unless your working with at least a strong intermediate level of skills, you're chances of achieving a running engine are going to be pretty much, excuse the term, Hit and Miss.

Earlier in the thread, I mentioned the tendency to go for too much complexity when choosing a project. That is definitely what I see happening here. I can see a team of experienced guys possibly pulling off a working IC engine, with more than a little luck, but this one is likely to quickly dampen the enthusiasm of someone with a lesser experience level.

A team build can be tremendous fun, but not if part of the team is in way over their heads, even before it begins.

Steve

 

[Tin Falcon]

Looks like things are going in several directions here and this thread is wandering.
IMHO the question : Is there enough interest from experienced builders to resurrect TB3.
This is an IC Engine. With all its complexities.
A successful team build all need to have the same goal and the same direction.
I will beak off new build Ideas to TB4
Tin

 

[Brass_Machine]

I think at this time, TB3 will be put on the back burner. We may bring it back at a later date. I think getting some experience under the belts of the newer guys should come first... IE TB4 and TB5...

Eric