Strictly IC ISSUE 37

[Jasonb]

Its a lot for someone getting on in years to take on. No doubt he will want to recover the cost of buying the rights. So these days it would mean setting up a website with web commerce so that magazines can be sold as downloads and having the time and inclination to run it.

Not sure what format the originals are in but I doubt they are digital so good quality scans would be needed if people are going to pay for them, certainly need better quality than the bootleg pdfs that are out there. That is not something that can be done well on a home scanner so cost to have it done.

Paul may not be computer-savvy enough to create the website or even run it so more costs involved in that.

And he may just want to be spending what time he has in retirement making models for himself without taking on any more worry and stress.

 

[GreenTwin]

Then he should sell the rights to someone who will do something with them.
Why sit on them perpetually?
What is that going to achieve for the hobby?
.

 

[minh-thanh]

Why sit on them perpetually?
What is that going to achieve for the hobby?
.

I don't see any problem, it's his choice and right and should be respected.
Some people don't even share a plan....but are still considered "gods". 😂

 

[GreenTwin]

Much of this hobby has been created by hobby folks sharing information (such as on this forum).
There is not much of a hobby without sharing.
Just my opinion.

I have the same opinion about those who have purchased many of the patterns for a lot of the classic model engines, and then never produced any castings. Why not sell the patterns and let the kit production continue ?

This hobby needs all the help it can get to survive.
I would ask folks to do whatever you can to help this hobby thrive.

.

 

[Jasonb]

But as we have discussed before who is going to buy into a money looser. Those that have put things up for sale want a lot of money, items need work before they can be sold be that scanning or making good poor patterns, market is limited and so on.

Also many may take something on with good intension to make it available again but things like pressure of work, family commitments and ill health may get in the way. They still hope someday that they will have the time to get back to it so don't sell what they have.

I've not published or posted details of some of my builds, just showing the finished model in some cases. That is because I hope to publish those builds at some time probably in Model Engineer. I may not get round to all of them and take them to my grave. But why should I give them all away now, I put up drawings for some of them FOC but like to keep others to probvide a bit of retirement pocket money. Does that make me a bad man?

Have you given the green twin patterns to anyone who could make casting sets available? Maybe them you would have had more uptake as there are not so many who can or want to scratch build an engine originaly designed for castings.

 

[GreenTwin]

But we are talking about a magazine series, and it would be relatively simple to transfer/sell this to someone who would publish it.
You are sort of stretching the discussion into areas where it is off-topic.
Perhaps some valid points regarding other topics, but this is about the IC magazine, and how to save and republish it.

We could even have a fundraiser here to fund the purchase of the magazine rights.
There is no reason to let an entire magazine series go to the dumpster.
.

 

[GreenTwin]

As a general topic, I think hobby magazine publishing is on the way out, at least as far as printing hard copies of magazines and mailing those.

Some magazines have been able to convert to digital only, and that seems to be a viable method (not sure what the actual publisher that uses this method thinks as far as how profitable a digital magazine is).

I like to own legitimate purchased copies of books, drawings, etc., and I don't mind paying for that.
When someone just removes an entire magazine series permanently from the market, I think that encourages piracy.

I understand that the publishers have to attract advertisers, and the advertisers pay the salary of the publishers.
It is a for-profit affair, and not necessarily for the good of the hobby, although I know several publishers who are also highly involved in the hobby, and are in it for the good of the hobby as well as earning income.

I guess the bottom line is that the publishers are able to exist because hobby folks like us submit articles to them to be published.
Publishers make money off of the work of the hobby people, essentially.
We do the work, and they make the money.

Some publishers do pay contributors, so some hobby folks are partially in the hobby for the money, and more power to them if they can do something they enjoy, and make a buck while they are at it.
Some roll all their material up and sell it in book form.

A book of all the IC magazines would be nice.
.
Edit:
I think that when it becomes too much about the money, then people hoard things, and the hobby suffers.
It no longer becomes about the hobby, but more like people buying up all the shares of pork bellies on the open market, just because you can, you have a lot of money, and you want control of all pork bellies.
I know of more than a few folks who are only about power and control of whatever they can get their hands on, and that is the American way for sure, but don't overlook us hobby folks on the way to the bank.
The little hobby folks are the heart and soul of this enterprise.
.

 

[minh-thanh]

But we are talking about a magazine series, and it would be relatively simple to transfer/sell this to someone who would publish it.
You are sort of stretching the discussion into areas where it is off-topic.

.

That started from your comment :

Why sit on them perpetually?
What is that going to achieve for the hobby?

Moreover, a long time ago ,I asked you about your plans, I just asked to know....because if I buy it, I have to downsize it - a huge work - the way I want because your design is very big compared to what I need for a model engine. or for someone who likes it and wants to build it...but your answer is: "not for sale".
So don't talk about others like you said.
To share or not, sell or free....is someone's decision and we should respect that !!

 

[GreenTwin]

I don't sell engine drawings, I post them here on this site in the drawing section for free.
I have never charged anyone for drawings, but I don't fault others who do.

Nobody has to ask for my drawings.
Anyone in the world can just go to the download section and download them, for free.
I am not sure how much more hobby-friendly one can get.
.

 

[L98fiero]

But as we have discussed before who is going to buy into a money looser. Those that have put things up for sale want a lot of money, items need work before they can be sold be that scanning or making good poor patterns, market is limited and so on.

The problem with that 'sunk cost logic' is that when the rights are sold, the owner will possibly get nothing after he dies. I appreciate that the reason they aren't being sold is because he possibly can't recover the original cost, but the ROI isn't going to get better with time.

 

[GreenTwin]

Another problem that I have observed is that some of the drawings and casting kits were made in the pre-3D modeling era, and often had a number of problems.

For me, it is easier to start a clean design based on photos and old factory information, rather than try and correct someone else's free-lanced design.
Engine drawings (in my opinion) should be error-free, and castings should fit without problems, and without hard spots in iron castings.

So much has changed in this hobby since many folks began using 3D modeling, not to mention 3D-printed patterns/CNC patterns.
Its like night and day compared with what was often standard drawings and castings in the hobby.
.

 

[minh-thanh]

Casting: Just a small part of machining.
Don't be prescriptive.. , don't make it special...
Let people play the way they like and want .

 

[Jasonb]

Engine drawings (in my opinion) should be error-free, and castings should fit without problems, and without hard spots in iron castings.

.

Well it's nice to dream. But in the real world most of these old casting set designs were often done by someone who had the full size and just wanted to make a model for themselves. Then others wanted some castings so they had to hand draw up a set as best they could and get some castings done from what was never intended as production patterns. That is why drawings can be lacking and issues with castings.

If you were to spend the time making patterns that were 100%, drawings that were faultless with all tolerances etc on them and then provide perfect castings and freely change any with faults you would be looking at a lot of time and effort for limited return.

Having actually done drawings patterns (machined and printed) Then passed them on to get them cast professionally and available for sale I know what is involved including designs that did not work, patterns that needed altering, duff castings from the foundry as well as the good ones. I talk from actual experience. Again I've redone patterns for old casting sets where they were damaged or just not that good so again know what is involved.

You have only cast a few items, have not yet sorted out the surface finish of your 3D prints and not cast anything for years. Once you get up and running then maybe you will have a different view.

 

[Richard Hed]

As a general topic, I think hobby magazine publishing is on the way out, at least as far as printing hard copies of magazines and mailing those.

Some magazines have been able to convert to digital only, and that seems to be a viable method (not sure what the actual publisher that uses this method thinks as far as how profitable a digital magazine is).

I like to own legitimate purchased copies of books, drawings, etc., and I don't mind paying for that.
When someone just removes an entire magazine series permanently from the market, I think that encourages piracy.

I understand that the publishers have to attract advertisers, and the advertisers pay the salary of the publishers.
It is a for-profit affair, and not necessarily for the good of the hobby, although I know several publishers who are also highly involved in the hobby, and are in it for the good of the hobby as well as earning income.

I guess the bottom line is that the publishers are able to exist because hobby folks like us submit articles to them to be published.
Publishers make money off of the work of the hobby people, essentially.
We do the work, and they make the money.

Some publishers do pay contributors, so some hobby folks are partially in the hobby for the money, and more power to them if they can do something they enjoy, and make a buck while they are at it.
Some roll all their material up and sell it in book form.

A book of all the IC magazines would be nice.
.
Edit:
I think that when it becomes too much about the money, then people hoard things, and the hobby suffers.
It no longer becomes about the hobby, but more like people buying up all the shares of pork bellies on the open market, just because you can, you have a lot of money, and you want control of all pork bellies.
I know of more than a few folks who are only about power and control of whatever they can get their hands on, and that is the American way for sure, but don't overlook us hobby folks on the way to the bank.
The little hobby folks are the heart and soul of this enterprise.
.

I have one cent to toss in. A certain well known magazine, actually two, that come out bi-monthly, are struggling to stay in existence. there are several reasons for this, the number one is probably price. the cost of this mag is 54USD per subscription at this time in 2024. My problem is that the paper is thick, expensive, glossy paper with only about 48 total pages. on an average year, there may be one project that I might like to build with the rest seeming either trivial or even silly--this may be because there are not enough contributors and of course, not enough subscribers. It's not like the old days when there were several regular contributors with new designs or new ideas. So the magazines don't have enough content and often the content is left wanting, and the price for the expensive paper is too high.

Had these two magazines used cheap paper, my guess is it would nearly have halved the cost of the mag which would have the effect that I would continue every year to buy the mag and likewise, I'm sure other peeps too. As is, I get disgusted and only buy the mag about every two-three years. It is known that cheap paper doesn't last as long, but is fine if well taken care of. Also, if the mag owners thinmpfk that the glossies are necessary for good photos, then they could put a few glossies in for the photos. Myself, I thimpfk it is not necessary for glossies at all. Of course, I know nothing about publishing problems, and it is likely that it is simply cheaper for the mag to use all glossies rather than a few glossies mixed in with cheapo paper. My preference is cheapo paper or all digital.

OK, so I admit I don't know what I am talking about and even less than what peeps here, on this forum, are talking about. I know that to organize any type of activity, (that is, mag, TV show, engine fair, foundering, etc) it costs $$ and folks have to survive. But keeping costs and prices to a minimum is necessary if one expects to sell an item.

However, there are new and modern devices that keep prices down. A book printing machine (I'm sure it costs many millions) can now publish a single book at the same cost per book as printing 10000--and that's FAR lower than the price of a new book on the shelves of the bookstores. If one wanted, He/she could print on his/her home printer a single mag for far less than 9$ per issue. Of course, that leaves poor quality mags and the person editing this all with little to live on. It's all Economics 101.

So how does that help with saving this mag and back issues?

 

[GreenTwin]

If you were to spend the time making patterns that were 100%, drawings that were faultless with all tolerances etc on them and then provide perfect castings and freely change any with faults you would be looking at a lot of time and effort for limited return.

Having actually done drawings patterns (machined and printed) Then passed them on to get them cast professionally and available for sale I know what is involved including designs that did not work, patterns that needed altering, duff castings from the foundry as well as the good ones. I talk from actual experience. Again I've redone patterns for old casting sets where they were damaged or just not that good so again know what is involved.

You have only cast a few items, have not yet sorted out the surface finish of your 3D prints and not cast anything for years. Once you get up and running then maybe you will have a different view.

Although I have not done any casting work in years, that does not negate the knowledge I gained during the 10 years I was created drawings, 3D printed and manually made patterns, and made castings using aluminum, brass, bronze, and cast iron.

What I am saying is that by using 3D modeling, and verifying that an engine design will operate correctly in simulation, and then extracting 2D drawings from the 3D model, you are pretty much guaranteed to have a good set of working drawings that are free from errors (been there, done that, it does work).

Sending out patterns to an external foundry is a bit of a crap shoot in my opinion, since you don't have any control over their quality control, and may not even know if the same person will do the work each time. You don't know if they accurately measure ferrosilicon, or how slowly they cool the castings (or may not know other than what they verbally tell you, but who knows unless you actually witness it yourself).
And if you are forced to use greensand molds, then you are going to trade off quality, in my opinion.
Not everyone can make their own castings at home; I understand that farming out castings may be a necessity for many/most, and thus you have to deal with what you can get.

If careful attention is paid to draft angle, you should not have to modify a pattern, unless there is some sort of fill issue.
Fill issues can be solved by changing runners and gates.

You are not losing any time and effort by making the 3D model and 2D drawings correct the first time.
You lose time by not doing things right initially, and then having to redo things over and over.
There is nothing worse than a problem dominoing through the entire design/casting process.

The Merlin castings that someone made are a good case study in what can go right and wrong with intricate engine castings.
Reading the notes on that Merlin page indicated problems with some of the castings fitting together, from a dimensional standpoint.
The smaller and more intricate the pattern/casting, the higher the probability that something will not align exactly.
I think the lesson from the Merlin castings is that even with great care in pattern making, and superb castings, you may still have a few issues crop up.

I have been up and running for 10 years, and so that is not really an issue.
As far as "up and running" meaning mass-producing model engine castings, I won't be doing that.
The most I would ever attempt is limited run production, of perhaps 10 castings for each engine, so I could tightly control all quality control aspects, and be sure every casting was correctly annealed.

There does not appear to be any profit in selling model engine castings these days, at least in limited quantities, and so there is no logic to selling casting kits only to lose money on each sale.
You don't want to get into a situation where you are passing money through either; you need a clear and significant profit, else why sell something?
I think many of the problems with model engine castings comes from the lack of profit, and thus the foundry cutting corners.

The Cretors guy mentioned that his casting quality goes down every year, and his casting costs go up exponentially every year.
Limited run castings are difficult to source.
The Amish are one source that I am told does quality iron and other castings.

I am not convinced that a hobby-level person could sell enough casting kits to make a profit, especially the way this hobby is headed.
Only time will tell if even the major kit companies will survive (many have not).

.