Steam engine lubrication

[Bentwings]

Byron
I had a kelpie and, being in Australia. this was the ideal dog for anywhere. GP dog. General -purpose, low-maintenance dog, Would run all day in any conditions.
My Valvata sits in my shed. I you were a little closer, we could do a deal. Yes, 55 gallons is a bit over the top and when I bought my 5 gals, that was much more than I'd ever use. I haven't checked, but I will look at Shell to see if it's still available.

A lady I trained with had akelpie, it was a fun dog. They were usually across the training ring from us. We did quite a bit of things together. Also at herding training the trainer had a Helpie as one of her herd of dogs. The poor sheep had their wool run off them between our two dogs. The dog didn’t get along too well together. Aussies can be pretty vocal and both being female liked to “talk” a loti think Aussies are a bit more physical in their tactics. The big ram weighed300 pounds. I’m not a rancher and have not had much farm training myself. The ram was an only ornery critter and would not stay with the herd .the Kelpie would shag it all over to get him back. My Aussie took things into her own hands and pulled that ram right down to the ground and ripped about 5 pounds of wool out while the trainer was getting them apart. My gir came from a large ranch here in the states so was well used to cows and horses the big ram was a lot tamer aft that. . I had to regime her as I didn’t know how long I’d last after I got out of the hospital and none of the family was into dogs like I was. She went to the trainer from the training school so she went to a very good hom and is doing well. I gave a list of about 75 commands that she knew and used. My kitty is my house pet laying at my feet now.
I’ll continue looking into some other brands that had steam oil. This used to be a big rail area especially up north where the iron range is. Duluth is a large port on the Great Lakes. Klotz is a big name in two stroke stuff and has an oil with castor in it that I used in my Rc planes for a long time there is also an amzoil dealer not far away. Not had much luck with him however.
I just looked at the weather and we are supposed to get -17 deg F in a couple days so I’ll put the castor out on the deck overnight and see how it pours.
Thanks for the info.
I’m working on my boiler design.
Byron

 

[Andy Munns]

On our steamships (Sydney Heritage Fleet) we use Morris 680 cylinder oil non-compounded (vital as condensate is returned to the boiler. If not using condensate as feed, use a compounded oil.)

We use Morris 460 bearing oil for external steam engine bearings. The emulsions are essential and intentional as they mean that vital oil is not washed away by water plus water is retained for cooling. We used Valvata and 600W in the past. We also buy in industrial quantities but would certainly help out a local enthusiast, so perhaps ask around at your local steam museum... Steam hobby shops will also sell and ship small quantities of compounded cylinder oil and bearing oil for steam engines.

We use Shell Turbo 68 for enclosed crankcase steam engines.

Then, if running engines only on compressed air, suggest air tool oil would be the optimal choice and should be available at any tool shop.

 

[Bentwings]

On our steamships (Sydney Heritage Fleet) we use Morris 680 cylinder oil non-compounded (vital as condensate is returned to the boiler. If not using condensate as feed, use a compounded oil.)

We use Morris 460 bearing oil for external steam engine bearings. The emulsions are essential and intentional as they mean that vital oil is not washed away by water plus water is retained for cooling. We used Valvata and 600W in the past. We also buy in industrial quantities but would certainly help out a local enthusiast, so perhaps ask around at your local steam museum... Steam hobby shops will also sell and ship small quantities of compounded cylinder oil and bearing oil for steam engines.

We use Shell Turbo 68 for enclosed crankcase steam engines.

Then, if running engines only on compressed air, suggest air tool oil would be the optimal choice and should be available at any tool shop.

You ought to see the castor snd cooking oil input in the freezer. I take pictures tomorrow. It will have s 24 soak by then . Both are almost solid now . Yeah I looked at air tool oil and thought it might be ok. I’ve used lots of it and never had any air tools stop working from lack of lube . I’m also considering adding a preset to the oil for the lubricator. I wish I could see more volume of air or steam going through the tubricstor. There is not a lot of volume at 20-30 psi operating pressure I’m not really sure how to do the lube air tools use a lot of air I’m almost thinking a high vol through a preheated but I’ll need to examine how the thing works at low speed some kind of loop circuit is what I’m thinking. Maybe just over thinking . The slide valves and pistons get the oil first but the main bearing will have drip or oil can feed. I’ll have to see how all this works out. These little engines have a lot of moving parts the turbines only have ball bearings with no seals so they should work fine as I’ll run them on exhaust steam that should have relatively more lube in it . Again I’ll have to really look closely. I’d sure like to run without a lot of wear and tear. My boiler is 14” long 4” of so pretty high capacity for this engine . I don’t even know what would be a good operating pressure and temp. I’m thinking max pressure of 120 psi that should be around 25 deg F I think the hoop stress is way within limits I’ll have rooms for two electric immersion heater one is 750 watts the other is 1500 watts. I have to make sure what my home circuits can handle I haven’t piped s breaker since I moved in 2 1/2?years ago . I don’t cook much that I can’t microwave and the computers don’t take much. The ever present coffee pot is on most of the day and I’ll be having my old electric blanket on but only had of it works. It’s just a foot warmer as the floor is cold due to the door leaking .
I just got a new digital multi meter so I can test things . Kitty wants me to go to bed so I’ll be back in the morning
Byron

 

[Bentwings]

Byron
I just finished Googling Shell Valvata and it is indeed still available, certainly in the US. Quantities? I did see one advertiser offering one ounce bottles for about five bucks, but one ounce isn't going to last very long. My lubricators, while oversize, take more than that, but I'll be pumping oil to two 2"x 3" cylinders. Then there were any number of sites discussing or offering Valvata or J460, whatever that number means. I did notice another, Shell Vitrea, which was listed as being "OK" for steam engines up to 500 HP.

You ought to see the castor snd cooking oil input in the freezer. I take pictures tomorrow. It will have s 24 soak by then . Both are almost solid now . Yeah I looked at air tool oil and thought it might be ok. I’ve used lots of it and never had any air tools stop working from lack of lube . I’m also considering adding a preset to the oil for the lubricator. I wish I could see more volume of air or steam going through the tubricstor. There is not a lot of volume at 20-30 psi operating pressure I’m not really sure how to do the lube air tools use a lot of air I’m almost thinking a high vol through a preheated but I’ll need to examine how the thing works at low speed some kind of loop circuit is what I’m thinking. Maybe just over thinking . The slide valves and pistons get the oil first but the main bearing will have drip or oil can feed. I’ll have to see how all this works out. These little engines have a lot of moving parts the turbines only have ball bearings with no seals so they should work fine as I’ll run them on exhaust steam that should have relatively more lube in it . Again I’ll have to really look closely. I’d sure like to run without a lot of wear and tear. My boiler is 14” long 4” of so pretty high capacity for this engine . I don’t even know what would be a good operating pressure and temp. I’m thinking max pressure of 120 psi that should be around 25 deg F I think the hoop stress is way within limits I’ll have rooms for two electric immersion heater one is 750 watts the other is 1500 watts. I have to make sure what my home circuits can handle I haven’t piped s breaker since I moved in 2 1/2?years ago . I don’t cook much that I can’t microwave and the computers don’t take much. The ever present coffee pot is on most of the day and I’ll be having my old electric blanket on but only had of it works. It’s just a foot warmer as the floor is cold due to the door leaking .
I just got a new digital multi meter so I can test things . Kitty wants me to go to bed so I’ll be back in the morning
Byron

I just looked in my freezer. The crud I veggie oil I frozen solid by the castor might still pour if you give it long enough I’ll open them later and take pictures. I don’t intend to operate my steamer out doors in the freezing winter. It -12 belowF going down to -17 tonight. Yikes hope my water line doesn’t freeze. Back when the steam engines ran in the ore mines I remember it being really cold. I suppose the oiler kept his squirt can in the engine cab but the trains did buck snow drifts . There was probably enough residual heat that they never got cold . It’s cold in the house now so I’m continuing looking at a preheat system. It will be easy to add a fitting and line before the boiler is done but now will be the time to plan it. PM REsearch has a lot of steam related items.
Byron

 

[Bentwings]

Thanks I’ll check out the lock oil. I wonder what special properties it has other than thin . One thing that comes from turning lots of nuts snd bolts over the years is never seize . I use it on every thing. The finish is so smooth on these little motors that there isn’t much “tooth” for it to fill into but on the racer wrist pins it really cuts down on wear and tear it’s more a matter of the parts being deformed by the massive loads of nitro than scuffing main and rod bearings last a run at best if the rest of the motor is still in one piece . You can’t imagine the cost of parts on just one run . A loaded piston with tool steel wrist pins is over $300 this year I’m glad I’ve retired from that sport . Anew supercharger is more than a new corvette they will have a whole row of them in the trailers .
byron

I got a whole bag of syringes with the hooked end. They will be perfect for the spot oiling. I’ll try some different oils too. Air tool oil always worked on them . So did marvel mystery oil.
The main bearing caps have oil holes in the top I’ll probably be able to yak them off they are kinda like automotive insert bearing with out the inserts. Unfortunately they don’t have a ositivevlocator. I’m sure this is so you can easily replace them if the bearing get worn. You just have to be careful when reinstalling them not to crest binding in the crankshaft . I’ll look more closely when assembling. It’s something the do note in the assembly instructions .

good pint about the turbine shafts I had not considered that they only have a grooved small pulley on them , not a flywheel . I’ll play safe and do the same . I got some boat shaft joints today. They were all I could find that would fit I can get 5/64 I’d brass tube at the hobby shop I’m not sure if there is metric tubing k & s makes the metals rack so I’ll look on their site I agree on the bearings I’ll have to see how much steam it takes to run these things the price has gone up twice since I ordered them I just saw another with a gearbox add on my master has brassspur gear rod that is pretty cheap. Plus’s they have a couple plastic spur gears that could be used to make a gear reduction if necessary.I may have to make my own coupler from brass round stock . A pretty easy lathe project

Byron

 

[Bentwings]

You ought to see the castor snd cooking oil input in the freezer. I take pictures tomorrow. It will have s 24 soak by then . Both are almost solid now . Yeah I looked at air tool oil and thought it might be ok. I’ve used lots of it and never had any air tools stop working from lack of lube . I’m also considering adding a preset to the oil for the lubricator. I wish I could see more volume of air or steam going through the tubricstor. There is not a lot of volume at 20-30 psi operating pressure I’m not really sure how to do the lube air tools use a lot of air I’m almost thinking a high vol through a preheated but I’ll need to examine how the thing works at low speed some kind of loop circuit is what I’m thinking. Maybe just over thinking . The slide valves and pistons get the oil first but the main bearing will have drip or oil can feed. I’ll have to see how all this works out. These little engines have a lot of moving parts the turbines only have ball bearings with no seals so they should work fine as I’ll run them on exhaust steam that should have relatively more lube in it . Again I’ll have to really look closely. I’d sure like to run without a lot of wear and tear. My boiler is 14” long 4” of so pretty high capacity for this engine . I don’t even know what would be a good operating pressure and temp. I’m thinking max pressure of 120 psi that should be around 25 deg F I think the hoop stress is way within limits I’ll have rooms for two electric immersion heater one is 750 watts the other is 1500 watts. I have to make sure what my home circuits can handle I haven’t piped s breaker since I moved in 2 1/2?years ago . I don’t cook much that I can’t microwave and the computers don’t take much. The ever present coffee pot is on most of the day and I’ll be having my old electric blanket on but only had of it works. It’s just a foot warmer as the floor is cold due to the door leaking .
I just got a new digital multi meter so I can test things . Kitty wants me to go to bed so I’ll be back in the morning
Byron

I just thought of something. I wonder what the dentist uses in his air drill. Maybe water . You can buy these turbines relatively inexpensive. Also I did see the handles too they are like a mini dremel tool they may use an air bearing too . I ran a big Cincinnati ID grinder that used air bearings. I don’t remember how fast it was but you had to wear ear muffs the whole shift running that monster . It was capable of incredibly close tolerance and finish, especially with the diamond and cubic born wheels. The ground carbide ironing dies that made beverage cans An air gage was used for sizing . I don’t remember the tolerance but there were lots of 0’s Close temperature control was required too.
byron

 

[Bentwings]

I found some model steam companies have small bottles bout 4 oz or so it’s petty expensiv for quantity

Did find one that has qts. I think it was about $23 . I forgot to save he site I’ll go back and try to find it. All were called stem oil
Byron

 

[Bentwings]

I think air tol oil probably would be good on compressed air operation it’s thin but I honk the line lubricator will be ok even at lo flows. I’ll investigate te that as I put my system together. Im curious as most of the time air tools fun full throttle when irking. When only 30-40 psi is usd nd small volume there may not be a lot of oil n the flowing air. So fr im also thinking that an oil preheat may be necessary to mak the steam oil disperse better. It would not be hard to add this feature in my boiler build now but. Real pain if it has o be added later. I guess that’s what pipe plugs were made for.LOL

I JUS GOT M LITLE INFRA RED HEAT TEMP GUN. I tried it earlier outdid and it was right on he weathevreport 12 deg f I’ll try it on my castor and veggie oil samples later I know the veggie is nearly solid in the frig freezer castor looks like dep woods maple syrup sap.
The two turbines shoul be good separators. They have good size exit ports. I can make a nice condenser that can be taken apart to clean.
As far as hose and lines go the AN4 is a good size. The hose is steam capable snd realy neat fittings that don’t leak are available. They are easy to assemble if you use the right technique. I’ve made lots of them. Gasoline and alcohol will get to the hose but takes years. So I’m not worried about durability. There is copper line hat looked good but it always seems to get bent in the wrong place then looks terrible. Stainless brake line looks good but it’s difficult to work with we do have flaring tool and cutters buts it’s subject to bends too. Well that’s lol down the road for now I’ll finish up my sketches tonight and we can possibly start machining after the 1st.
byron

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Byron, I suggest you don't use Steam oil with compressed air, niether use AIR tool oil with Steam...
For your other oils in the freezer, check the melt temperature (when about half melted) then later, check (or maybe on the label?) check the boiling point (at atmospheric pressure) for the oils? Oil passing through the engine in compressed air is in droplets.
Oil passing through the engine with STEAM may well be at a higher temperature that the boiling point of the oil at atmospheric pressure, but may not vapourise - due to the steam pressure. Therefore it too will be in droplet form.
However, superheated steam may be hot enough to vapourise the oil (I am sure my boilers give that sort of temperature!) in which case, the oil enters the engine as vapour, then condenses onto cooler surfaces (inside the engine) and onto water vapour droplets that form as the steam expands and cools. Either way, the internal surfaces are well lubricated with the tiniest amount of oil.
In an internal combustion engine, the oil does a great deal of its work in cooling hot parts (e.g. the skirts and underside of pistons, cams, followers, valve springs, etc.) and subsequently carrying this heat away to where it can find cooler places to pass-on the heat (oil cooler or sump?), as it circulates within the chambers of the engine.
Your model steam engine isn't doing that, so only needs adequate oil for lubricating the piston & piston rod, piston rings, valves & rods, and fixed surfaces that these component rub against.
Cheers,
K2

 

[Bentwings]

Hi Byron, I suggest you don't use Steam oil with compressed air, niether use AIR tool oil with Steam...
For your other oils in the freezer, check the melt temperature (when about half melted) then later, check (or maybe on the label?) check the boiling point (at atmospheric pressure) for the oils? Oil passing through the engine in compressed air is in droplets.
Oil passing through the engine with STEAM may well be at a higher temperature that the boiling point of the oil at atmospheric pressure, but may not vapourise - due to the steam pressure. Therefore it too will be in droplet form.
However, superheated steam may be hot enough to vapourise the oil (I am sure my boilers give that sort of temperature!) in which case, the oil enters the engine as vapour, then condenses onto cooler surfaces (inside the engine) and onto water vapour droplets that form as the steam expands and cools. Either way, the internal surfaces are well lubricated with the tiniest amount of oil.
In an internal combustion engine, the oil does a great deal of its work in cooling hot parts (e.g. the skirts and underside of pistons, cams, followers, valve springs, etc.) and subsequently carrying this heat away to where it can find cooler places to pass-on the heat (oil cooler or sump?), as it circulates within the chambers of the engine.
Your model steam engine isn't doing that, so only needs adequate oil for lubricating the piston & piston rod, piston rings, valves & rods, and fixed surfaces that these component rub against.
Cheers,
K2

thanks. That’s really good information. I thought maybe air tool oil nmight be good. I suspect marvel oil would be good. We use it in air tools quit a bit with no trouble. I’m concerned that thicker oil might not be really vaporized as the actual volume probably won’t be that great. They said the engine will run on about 20 psi so unless tiny amounts can be passed through small nozzles it’s going to be hard to get much oil in the air stream. Air tools often run wide open. For example a small sander or cut off tool. I can get very small feed restrictors for carbs on cars. I may still have a collection of them but even these aren’t going to do much unless there is pressure from the air supply . I’m considering a oil preheat tube running through the boiler so the lube oil is pretty hot and thin. The intake port blows directly on the slide valve wrist pin and guide slot so it will be constantly in what ever air flow there is. I’ll take the lubricator apart just to see exactly how it works. The main bearings and slide vale crankshaft bearings are drip feed or squirt can ( syringe) I’d rather not use a brush so there is less chance of hairs getting in the bearings. My kitty leave tiny hairs floating all over they get in your nose and glasses. I double she will hang around when the machine is running but hairs are everywhere it’s not like dog hair more like dandelion puffs. The vacuum cleaner hardly shows anything but it’s there. It was 35 deg F in the freezer today. Seems like it should be less. The ice cream is rock hard. I think the back of the freezer is colder. Now that I have a new heat gun I can measure everything. It even came with an emissivity. Chart and conversion table. When I order the engine I’ll get a small bottle of steam oil for initial assembly . I have to look back but I think PM research had the quart available. I also found my son has both AN 3 and AN 4 fittings and both braided fuel hose and braided Teflon hose I’ll have to make 1/4 40 TPI ME adaptors but that’s not hard . I’m still having a hard time finding good taps and dies without purchasing a big set. I have to get an extension cord so I can hook up the heater. Then I’ll try it befor committing to the boiler build . The 1500 watt should be here next eeek . There is a lot of stuff to get when you are just starting a new hobby . I haven’t even started on the mounting plate or floor as I’ll call it as it will be to simulate mill floors making it laminated at scale size means a lot of small strips of wood. I have a white plastic plate for now. Kitty just came and indicated it’s bet time so untill tomorrow good night. Have a safe new year.

byton

 

[wazrus]

We are on the subject of specialised oils/lubrication and I had, not long ago, bought a small vacuum pump, as I had intended to some silicone moulding and casting. Again, researching the 'net, i found some very specific 'Javac high performance vacuum pump oil': that's verbatim from the label. I had no ideas, one way or another, so I bought some and it wasn't expensive. It is, however, very specific. There is a data sheet available from Javac.com.au. I haven't looked at the sheet, and the oil's characteristics are a mystery. But at least I think I've got the 'right' stuff!
Also, too, i have used the AN type fittings with saturated steam and they seem to be OK., but I'll be scrapping the 'flexibles' anyway, so that's a bit of a non-event.

 

[Bentwings]

We are on the subject of specialised oils/lubrication and I had, not long ago, bought a small vacuum pump, as I had intended to some silicone moulding and casting. Again, researching the 'net, i found some very specific 'Javac high performance vacuum pump oil': that's verbatim from the label. I had no ideas, one way or another, so I bought some and it wasn't expensive. It is, however, very specific. There is a data sheet available from Javac.com.au. I haven't looked at the sheet, and the oil's characteristics are a mystery. But at least I think I've got the 'right' stuff!
Also, too, i have used the AN type fittings with saturated steam and they seem to be OK., but I'll be scrapping the 'flexibles' anyway, so that's a bit of a non-event.

I have vac pump I use for AC auto work. It does take vac oil. I know from the very high vac systems I worked with in industry there were very specific vac oils. Moisture in a vac system is not good there were rules about how vacs were used most were used in dry rooms with humidity about 1% is so nobody got sick as germ can’t live in this your skin gets dried out too there were specific skin lotions available. Moisture conten again monitored. These rooms had timited number of visits per day fussy stuff in R&D labs.

byron

 

[Bentwings]

I have vac pump I use for AC auto work. It does take vac oil. I know from the very high vac systems I worked with in industry there were very specific vac oils. Moisture in a vac system is not good there were rules about how vacs were used most were used in dry rooms with humidity about 1% is so nobody got sick as germ can’t live in this your skin gets dried out too there were specific skin lotions available. Moisture conten again monitored. These rooms had timited number of visits per day fussy stuff in R&D labs.

byron

It’s -12 F out side even cool in the house wind chill is pas -30 deg . I have to go for walk later hopefully it will warm up a little or wind will go down . Fortunately I have winter jacket and new gloves . I suppose I could were Covid mask. Might actually be useful for something .LOL I already shoveled the walk yesterday maybe a quick broom to warm up today.
Byron

 

[wazrus]

Byron
I'll swap our 30 degrees-plus (C) for a bit of your cold. Summer has been a bit cooler here than usual, but there are still two to three months of heat and we can usually rely upon a few 'stinkers'.

 

[Bentwings]

That’s good news. I have a small bottle of steam oil I ordered with the kit. PMResearch has larger watts if need here in the USA.
I’m still working on the boiler I’ve had several weeks of company then the weather turned brutally cold snd piles of snow so I’ve been side tracked. I’ve been rethinking how the boiler works. I have to admit I realy have little knowledge except what I’ve learned here I’m beginning self education. Like going back to eng college now being my own professor.
I’ve learned that what is commonly called steam is only hot vapor. Steam has some very interesting properties hen heated and pressurized I becomes a very different animal . I’m now looking into an add on super heater. This will be to dry out the heated vapor and effectively increase its heat or energy content.as I’ve noted I simply can not have flame in my hour so I’m gravitatingvtoward induction heating . I’ve now found several relatively high power units needing only inductance coils. So I’m looking into this as it’s relatively inexpensive and something I can work on without going out to my sons shop some 65 miles away I’m currently looking at super heating air from the air compressor. It’s to be contained in a much higher pressure vessel or tank. Advantage being compact size and electrically operated. Now I’m into even more unknown technology. I was learning about making my own unit but I just found a numbe of power supplies that only requir winding an inductance coil . It will use less house power than the boiler yet give clean hot air. I’ll probably switch to standard oiler aid continue with drip oil as needed. Still planing

byron

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Byron. I am curious about the induction heater.... I guess you have the coil outside the pipework containing the gas, and the pipework is insulated to contain the heat generated in the pipework - hence gas - is transmitted through the insulation via the electro-magnetic field from the coils. What is wrong with a resistance heater inside the pressurised gas? Or, if the induction heater can be put inside the pressurised gas, and the external electro- magnetic field then heats the containment vessel inside the thermal insulation, you can combine the logic of both...?
But, electric cookers use radiant elements, as the top rings or grill, which can run on a controlled (by the simple simmerstat cooker control knob), or lower voltage, so are not overheated, inside a tube full of gas at pressure.... The elements use an inert electrical insulation (powder) inside tubes that should take some pressure (do your research?). So easy to make and set-up to domestic mains? 2 kW should plug into the mains without any problem...?
And I reckon that the 50hz/60hz mains is the wrong frequency for an induction heater...? Do you need a frequency converter and current control?
I have only experienced a process with induction hardening... where parts (forgings) have ground shafts induction hardened by inserting the shaft (not body) of the part into a coil and a few seconds or minute of high frequency passed through the coils. I think the frequency was a tuned to the max heating of the part (steel), and the winding heavy copper so low resistance, and relatively low inductance? - but high current. Not a domestic heater!
So please can to expand on how and why "induction heating"?
K2

 

[Bentwings]

I’m in a learning phase about induction heaters. My electric boiler is not completed yet. It has two immersion heaters with room for a third if necessary. The idea of an external induction heater came from the fact that my boiler is electric so I really don’t have capability of superheating or adding lots of energy quickly . I quickly found that immersion heater don’t last long when run dry or not submerged. I’d like to just let pressure build thus creating much higher temp in the steam dome but I really don’t want to order stress my boiler so I’ve come up with a smaller but much stronger superheater that is external this will be thick wall seamless steel tubing most likely TIG welded. I’m going out to a friends shop where my TIG welder is located. I have a vision issue that makes everything very difficult. Like just this typing . I’ve been practicing some welding motions that I used to take for granted in my working days. I think I can successfully do some TIG work if I’m careful and have some pro evaluation . Anyway it will be another test for me. Of course the superheater will be tested well above expected operating pressures I’ve done this before and we have hydraulics to do this. Super heated steam can be very dangerous so I’ll be doing extreme care. Yes the system will be well insulated as will the connections they will all be steam rated even though they cost more. I just found a series of induction heaters in the power range I was considering building . I may still build as I like doing this. I’m planning on heating the air compressor output more as a test bu I think it will work . I’m righ in the middle of assembling my steamer nd now must go out and shovel snow for a bit. I’ll be back later
Byron

 

[Bentwings]

I asked the same question about running the immersion heater inside the “super heater” but the immersion heaters don’t live long when run without some liquid cooling. I know a gas is realy a fluid too but it is what it is. I’m working on some way to cause the internal gas to flow around at first I was just going to use a labyrinth passage but that way too complicated. I plan on using stainless steel 1/4” brake line and SAE or AN FITTINGS so I can make a circuitous path for incoming air/gas I just don’t know how fast heat transfer will occur. Stainless is poor in this respect but excellent in strength especially in heat. I don’t feel comfortable with copper unless someone can convince me otherwise the stainless is pretty easy to bend and flair I thought about just silver brazing tubing straight through with external bends as needed the gas would go through as it is pulled out in use . I can see some type of manifold but I’d like to keep it as easy as possible fittings are easy to set up and I have flair and bender available. I YHINK I realy opened a can of worms here maybe I should just rethink the boiler idea and go with a steel one at higher pressure then take real steam out of the dome . I still have to use the immersion heaters but I could possibly operate at higher temp and pressure. It somewhat depends on just how fast the immersion heater can heat they heat a bucket of water up pretty fast but it’s only producing hot vapor my coffe pot works pretty hard to make a pot of hot coffe and that’s not realy boiling. It does produce a limited amount of boiled water but barely enough for morning coffee. LOL I guess I’ll just have to experiment I’m still assembling the engines the rod cap screws are m2 so really small I have to use a drill bit to locat the cap while I put a screw in the other side. So far it’s going fine with no stickyness . I even managed to use some Teflon tape for packing the piston guide rod . I’ll try to find prongs for that not every one has m3 I’d Teflon o rings. The tape seems ok as I can tighten it and feel the drag.
byron

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Byron,
You seem to be confused, I think? Higher pressure boiler steam is always "wet" like lower pressure boiler steam... The point is, it is where the water is boiling. Superheated steam has the temperature elevated (and consequently pressure) without adding more water (latent heat of vaporisation), so MUST be in a zone where there is no free water. Your idea of a separate container plumbed into the steam pipe between the boiler and engine seems OK to me? - with the separate heater (and controls?) and the steam will take the heat away from the heater very efficiently, as it passes across the heater element, thus becoming superheated.
But I see a likely problem. And I think you should tackle some sums - or ask someone to do that for you. You are talking about heaters that boil water for a cup of coffee, or a bucket of water for a bath, or whatever. But with some simple sums, you can decide what size of heater to use. And anyway, your mains supply can only safely deliver a limited number of kW to any device. So check the mains limitation first, then tell me the bore and stroke of the engine (bore of 14 mm stroke 18 mm? ), number of cylinders (4), double acting, engine speed planned (1000rpm?), and we can do some simple sums. As you are on a few threads, I am not sure what engine you finally bought.
K2

 

[Bentwings]

Hi Byron,
You seem to be confused, I think? Higher pressure boiler steam is always "wet" like lower pressure boiler steam... The point is, it is where the water is boiling. Superheated steam has the temperature elevated (and consequently pressure) without adding more water (latent heat of vaporisation), so MUST be in a zone where there is no free water. Your idea of a separate container plumbed into the steam pipe between the boiler and engine seems OK to me? - with the separate heater (and controls?) and the steam will take the heat away from the heater very efficiently, as it passes across the heater element, thus becoming superheated.
But I see a likely problem. And I think you should tackle some sums - or ask someone to do that for you. You are talking about heaters that boil water for a cup of coffee, or a bucket of water for a bath, or whatever. But with some simple sums, you can decide what size of heater to use. And anyway, your mains supply can only safely deliver a limited number of kW to any device. So check the mains limitation first, then tell me the bore and stroke of the engine (bore of 14 mm stroke 18 mm? ), number of cylinders (4), double acting, engine speed planned (1000rpm?), and we can do some simple sums. As you are on a few threads, I am not sure what engine you finally bought.
K2

Bore is 14 mm stroke 18 mm double acting I’m picking 1000 rpm or 2000 rpm . I’ll have an air compressor thurs evening 2 gall tank 135 psi available 2.1 cut per min at 90 psi rated.
My proposed super heater is to take boiler steam out of a dome , more stack like in appearance at this point . I can see some condensation being removed as the steam vapor is being heated the super heater will have blow off capability so the moisture can be removed . My thinking. As long as pressure and temp remain high enough there should be only dry steam as long as taken ou high enough . The super heater will be pretty heavy duty . 3/16 wall 4130 is very strong from hydraulic stand point. Most likely I’ll try to maintain about 150 deg F if that is enough the unit will be independent of he main boiler using a check valve to admit boiler steam when pressure drops. At least this is my thought. I can be all wrong here as I’m not steam educated yet. I don’t really like this external idea as it introduces new mechanics and electronics obviously complexities the limitation of electric only is hampering me I believe but. Have no choice. Actually my though is to take relatively dry air from the compressor and heat it adding energy by using the inductance heater . As the heated air is used by the engines the energy gets converted into expanded volume this air would be oiled or treated as real steam since I think it will be essentially dried by the heating process. The kill condensate can be evacuated by blow off with by preset check valve or manually in other words at a certain higher pressure the checknvalv would open and clear any condensate. This would be very hot just as RR BOILERS ARE it would go into a condensate container . The steam world call these economist or condenser I think . That’s my though . Again I may be wet steam here so help me If ossible. Guess the way I see it the fire box is an external superheater. What I’m proposing is just a different way to achieve the heated dry steam . I’m right in the middle of assembling these two engines I just stepped on the #51 drill bit I dropped on the carpet last night so I now have red condensate coming out of my foot I’m installing a special check valve called a bandaide with some owdered sealant.
Dang that hurt .
I want to try and get nearly complete assembly today

byron