Spark source

[shred]

FWIW, this is a buzz coil:

I found it at a garage sale a while back and it sits on my desk awaiting a suitable engine or prank.

 

[jpeter]

I got curious so I read the Wiki on the buzz coil. I got a few of my questions answered like how they managed the high current usage of continuous buzzing. Turns out the model T had a generator of sorts (alternator maybe). Back in the day I don't think diodes were yet invented, at least not the type to be carried around in a model T, nor was there any mention of a commutator. Anyway, the driver switched it over to generator power after getting the engine started. BTW, the batteries were dry cells and did not get charged by the generator. They referred to the generator as a low voltage magneto but it looks like a generator to me. Seems the engine was started on the battery and run at low rpm but at speed the driver saved the battery by switching to generator power. At rpm the buzz coil didn't buzz. It only buzzed at no rpm or low rpm. The buzz coil lost out to the invention of the impulse magneto, the type that at low rpm holds the magnet back, then with the help of a spring flips it past the coil with with vigor at the proper time to give the magneto spark at starting rpm. The Kettering ignition invention, aided by the invention of the flyback transformer, hurt the buzz coil too. Interesting stuff don't you think.

 

[flyingtractors1]

Thanks for the research, Jim. It is very interesting and speaks to the inginuity of the industrial era and yet seems quite advanced today.

 

[flyingtractors1]

Wow, John! That magneto seems more complicated than my skill level and equipment can manage. I salute you for that accomplishment.

 

[flyingtractors1]

Yes, Shred. That's exactly the kind of "buzz coil" I have. Antiquated as it may be, I think I'll try to use it as a spark source on my IC engine attempt. Think it will work?

 

[Blogwitch]

Ralph,

I didn't put the magneto up here to intimidate anyone, especially yourself.

I was just showing that there are alternatives to the 'big box under the engine' scenario.

At one time, magnetos were used a lot more than the conventional battery/points setups, especially on model aircraft engines, purely because they were self contained on the engine itself.

It now seems that tiny electronic boxes have taken over.


John

 

[flyingtractors1]

Thanks John. I am amazed and impressed. Your skill level is something to aspire to. I do much like the Old Stuff and tend to understand it better. That's why we build (try to) old timey type engines. Yours is the ideal for me. Maybe I can grow to that level. Thanks again. Ralph

 

[flatbelter]

Yea, about them tiny electric boxes... I just killed at least one pick up, maybe two (hall sensors) by flooding out the engine. Seems flooding the gap on the plug will feed back enough voltage to toast the sensor. (airplane engine mounted upside down.) I don't have that trouble with the stock magneto...

Kind of disappointing end for the day as this is the heavily modified 26cc weed wacker engine that I've been playing with for the past month.(Wanted to start it today with the new ignition) Looks like I will have to go salvage the hall sensors off an old computer drive then flip the engine spark plug up so it doesn't flood the plug again.

Good luck with your salvage quest.

FB

 

[jpeter]

Yea, about them tiny electric boxes... I just killed at least one pick up, maybe two (hall sensors) by flooding out the engine. Seems flooding the gap on the plug will feed back enough voltage to toast the sensor. (airplane engine mounted upside down.) I don't have that trouble with the stock magneto...

Kind of disappointing end for the day as this is the heavily modified 26cc weed wacker engine that I've been playing with for the past month.(Wanted to start it today with the new ignition) Looks like I will have to go salvage the hall sensors off an old computer drive then flip the engine spark plug up so it doesn't flood the plug again.

Good luck with your salvage quest.

FB

To help save sensors add about 20,000 ohms in series with the sparkplug. That'll save a lot of sensors. Also you can buy them from Digikey for about $0.50 ea.

If I was building my first engine I'd put a small set of points, say from a 1960 Chrysler product, on it, put a round cam with a flat spot on the crankshaft, hook up an automotive coil and condenser as mentioned earlier and get it running. After it's running is when, if still in the mood, I'd fool around with the more exotic ignitions. Beginners often have lots of issues getting engines running. The way I see it, dealing with a fussy ignition is a problem not needed at the start.

 

[flatbelter]

Thanks Jim,

Digikey is a good source for electronic parts and they ship fast too.

I only burned one sensor, the second one is still working so far. However the engine has some other issues that need to be fixed before I can try starting again. (prop adapter problems)

This is my third run at converting a weedwacker engine to airplane use and the most ambitious. Only the piston and rod assembly remain stock. It is however the first time trying to use the "magic box" electronic ignition. Hopefully I'll get it all squared away soon.

 

[jpeter]

Thanks Jim,

Digikey is a good source for electronic parts and they ship fast too.

I only burned one sensor, the second one is still working so far. However the engine has some other issues that need to be fixed before I can try starting again. (prop adapter problems)

This is my third run at converting a weedwacker engine to airplane use and the most ambitious. Only the piston and rod assembly remain stock. It is however the first time trying to use the "magic box" electronic ignition. Hopefully I'll get it all squared away soon.

You tryiing to use one of those cheap Hobby King electronic ignition units? I've been giving them a look over and wondering if they'd be worth experimenting with. They are surly cheap enough.

 

[flatbelter]

You trying to use one of those cheap Hobby King electronic ignition units? I've been giving them a look over and wondering if they'd be worth experimenting with. They are surly cheap enough.

Yes I am! : It's the same $30 ignition pictured in the "$30 ignition" thread. They get mixed reviews, but many users seem to bake them with higher than spec voltage. For the price, I thought I would try it. (it's a weight issue, trying to save some oz off an RC plane)

Anyway, it looks nice in the bag, mounting was easy except my spark plug is the wrong size. (I'm using a standard Champion J8??) It makes a nice looking spark when hand propping.

Ground it real good to the engine (using the shield cable) and it might be worth experimenting with.

I got lucky, HK had a replacement crank for their XY 26 cc engine that came with the prop adapter and a trigger magnet for $17. I wanted to play with the crank but the prop adapter fit on the engine I already had except for the crank nose thread was different. I made a new threaded insert and was ready to go. (making engine parts that have to spin a 8000+ RPM on a lathe from the 1890's is real exciting especially ones with multiple chuckings and small internal threads)

Is it worth playing with? Yes I think so. I probably wouldn't have killed the hall sensor if I had the correct spark plug and hadn't modified the high voltage lead.
What can you buy these days for $30 anyway?

FB

 

[flyingtractors1]

Has anyone tried the "Blokker Spark Igniter" that Jan Ridder has used. They became extinct, but similar type igniters have become available. Jan lists the following sites where these "new" ones can be found.

http://www.amazon.com/BATTERY-OPERA...=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

http://www.sourcingmap.com/plastic-...gle&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=usfroogle

http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Barbecue-lighter/p/sm/1041828646.htm

 

[Ed T]

I did a lot of looking for the "Blokker" lighter and, I think they are still available in Europe. They appear to be the same device sold all over the place in England under the brand name "MasterClass". (Not sure if that's a social commentary or a cooking school). I have also looked at the ones Jan mentions on his site. Unfortunately, two of them appear to be bulk wholesalers so if you want a 1000 or more it'll work. The sourcing map one, I think, seems to offer onesies, but they ship from Asia somewhere so I haven't bitten the bullet yet. Still looking. It seems like a nice set up for our type of application.

 

[MikeA]

Hello all,

As mentioned by flyingtractors1, indeed there are additional sources for these gas igniters! In discussions with Jan Ridders he's been advised these or similar are not readily available in Europe and much the same here in the USA.

The primary areas where these are readily available are in Asia/India where use of bottled gas for cooking is widespread and I am checking with some contacts in China as to ease of availability. Indeed, I have found the wholesalers who would be pleased to sell me 50,000 but that might be a bit too much inventory for my personal use!

The units sourced from Amazon arrived several weeks back, and although they could be used they are unbelievably poor quality.

I just received the units from sourcingmap yesterday (free shipping from Hong Kong takes about three weeks).

The good news is this second set appears to be at least as good, perhaps even better, than the 'Blokker Spark Igniter'!

Here are some shots of the partially disassembled unit from Hong Kong: note the transformer/bobbin is 'potted' which should make it that much more rugged for our purposes.

I've hooked one up to a miniature spark plug and it fires perfectly.

If anyone has any questions I'll try to respond.

All the best,
Mike

 

[Ed T]

Glad to see you were actually able to get something that looks reasonable. It looks like the circuitry is a bit different than the Blokker. More stages in the, I think, "multiplier coil" and a bit simpler on the front end. I guess I'll have to get a couple and see if I can get my sparky buddies to analyze it for me. Thanks, Mike, for doing the leg work and taking some of the upfront risk. I'll let everyone know if I find out anything useful.

 

[MikeA]

Hello Ed,

Glad it is of interest to someone! I'm building a couple of IC engines (various stages of completion) and will the first to admit I know nothing about 'electrikery', so when I saw this solution on Jan Ridders web site I thought it was the answer to a prayer!

In my conversations with Jan, (a great designer and generous beyond belief) he commented he had heard from people all over that the 'Blokker' type gas igniters were not available anywhere. After some extensive web searches I was able to come up with a few sources - none really convenient other than Amazon, and the igniters from them I can not recommend.

It seems this sized ignition system is much more fitting for the miniature IC engines.

All the best,
Mike

 

[flyingtractors1]

Hi All. I was able to order and have received one each of the lighters from 1) Amazon ( cam-06955) and 2) the sourcingmap.com kitchen lighter from China. The cam-06955 does not work - even with a new battery, and it isn't worth the trouble of returning it nor trying to "fix" it. The one from China took 2 weeks to arrive, but it works and delivers a nice spark that might just work as a source for a small IC engine. Now all I need is the engine. Ralph

 

[MikeA]

Hello Flyingtractors1,

In all likelihood you might need to redo the solder joints on the one you got from Amazon - I had the same problem but after redoing the joints it worked fine. No question the one from China is better quality.

Mike

 

[lee9966]

I bought three of the Amazon ones. The batteries in the package were corroded to the point the case was expanding. None of them worked at first, but cleaning the battery contacts got them all working. These things have been sitting in a warehouse somewhere for a looong time.

The circuit is very similar to the Blokker, except for o e critical thing as far as I can see. The diode that is removed in Jans circuit is a resistor in these units. I don't understand how that can work since the Blokker appears to use reverse voltage on the diode as a "switch". My electronics knowledge I'd limited, so I am stumped. The two transistors are the same parts as Jans though, and the power supply half of the circuit (oscillator iirc) is exactly the same.

I plan on taking one apart and redoing it with Jans final design. Most likely I will just end up letting the smoke out hehe

Lee