Silkscreen Water Slide Decals

[fltenwheeler]

Hi All

I would like to make some silkscreen water slide decals for my large-scale
trains. The CNW used a decalcomania to apply their Monograms to the side of the
tenders. I have started to make the artwork from an original drawing I found.
The monogram will be 3-3/4" x 5-5/8".

I would like recommendations on the following;

Ink?
Screen mesh count?
Under-coat & over-coat or just over-coat?
Uncoated decal paper source?


Thanks

Tim

 

[Tin Falcon]

Tim :
that is an interesting one I will be following. I spent about seven years making silk screens for industry first plastic bottle decoration then microscope slides. This was back from 1980-,87.
screen count 350 should work. a commonly used mesh with good resolution.
Micromark sells paper for your computer printer to make decals this could be an alternative solution.
I would think you would need to do a top coat the logo and a glue coat .


Tin

 

[Ken I]

Why bother silk screening.

You can inkjet print the artwork onto waterslide decal paper, adhesive vinyls etc.

http://www.papilio.com/

They make a range of products that are even waterproof after printing - although for the cheapest gelatin type waterslide, a coat of clear laquer works just fine.

Regards,
Ken

 

[Engine maker]

Be careful inkjet printing to decal paper. Unless you have a special printer anything on the decal that is white will show as clear, and turn into the back round color when the decal is transferred since most inkjet printers don't print white. They just use the color of the paper (usually white) to get the white color. I made up some decals a while back and all was fine till I transferred the first one and noticed how the decal had changed when applied.
Jim

 

[itowbig]

good point there jim

 

[Tin Falcon]

I did some google research here are some products that should work for what you ask.


here is a paper source
http://www.beldecal.com/decals.cfm they also carry inkjet and laser paper clear and white film.
Decal info
http://www.narhams.org/library/tech/016-DecalMaking.pdf
Ink
http://www.nazdar.com/pdf/3600_TDS_Rev_5.pdf
Tin falcon

 

[Ken I]

Enginemaker's comments are correct.

The clear waterslide decals print the white area as clear - which is fine for some applications - but the colour is "thin" and changes appreciably when placed over other solid colours.

The white waterslide does not in my experience suffer this problem as the white is solid enough to mask any underlying colours. You do of course have to accurately trim the white area before application.

You can generally be as sloppy as you like with clear.

 

[mardtrp]

There is another way of doing water slide decals, you can use a MICRO DRY printer.

The most common is an ALPS printer, then there are OKI and Citizen, these are just an ALPS re-badged.

These are not normal printers, they use a tape ribbon with the ink colour on the tape, they even print white, gold and silver as well as CMYK, have a look at this video showing how it prints multiples of colours. The colour comes out dry and you can cut out the water slide decal and soak in water immediately, with absolutely NO colour running at all, no need to cover with a clear lacquer before using either. Once the decal is applied, let it dry and then give it a clear coat to seal the edges of the decal.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnGHUzlqc7g&feature=related[/ame]

A lot of decal manufactures use these printers for small run jobs, much more economical than screen printing.

You can use a variety of programs to run this printer, the most popular tho' is Corel Draw.

Check out some of the truck model decal manufactures and see what sort of price they can come up with, it's even cheaper if you do the art work.

 

[Ken I]

Mardtrp,
Thanks for that - I wondered what on earth a sublimation printer was - now I know.

I can see the advantages.

Regards,
Ken

 

[fltenwheeler]

Thanks for the information

I know about the sublimation printer water-slide decals. I have been told that they will not hold up outdoors. That is why I would like to go with the old standard made with lacquer ink type decals.

INKS

I have found 2 inks so far:

CANDOC; SS Series Lacquer, Use for water-slide decals; also recommended for Tyvek and leather. Excellent for hand-painting inflatable balloons.

NazDar; has discontinued the DL series (Decal Lacquer). They say their all-in-one 7200 lacquer ink series, “Works as well but is not as flexible as the DL series was, needs to be sandwiched between clears.” Instend of just overcoated.

PAPER

In Sublimation, Laser, and Ink-jet you use a decal paper that has a preapplied coating designed for the specific printer. In silkscreen decals the paper is uncoated. It just has the adhesive on the paper. You can also make your own.

Decafix; made by Tullis Russell Coaters in the U.K. http://www.tullisrussellusa.com/index.php

Papilio Uncoated Perga-Flat Decal Paper; This is a basic, uncoated, water-slide decal paper. For use with laser rubber stamping, screen printing, and some specialized arts & crafts projects please do not confuse this media with pre-coated decal paper for use with inkjet or laser printers. For pre-coated paper please see our (IAS) for inkjet printers or our (PAS4) for laser printers.
http://www.texascraft.com/hps/product.php?productid=16544&cat=0&page=1

SCREENS

I have been told to use a 300 mesh

Tim

 

[mardtrp]

Thanks for the information

I know about the sublimation printer water-slide decals. I have been told that they will not hold up outdoors. That is why I would like to go with the old standard made with lacquer ink type decals.


Tim

Yes, if the water slide decal has NOT been sealed with a clear coat, then this will happen, you are 100% correct.

So to overcome this, just use a clear coat to seal it in place, either an enamel, or acrylic will do the job just fine.

 

[galmiklos]

I saw at the top of this conversation, that 350 tpi mesh is good for water slide decal printing. I just started printing, and I used 305, but looking at the result with a 10x loupe, I can make out the dots. I am actually restoring the decals of a B-24 plastic model from the 70's (very old, yellowish decals, breaking into pieces when submerged in water), but looking at the original decals with the same loupe, I cannot see any discontinuity of lines. Cuves are curves, straight lines are straight lines, not steps, unlike on my copies printed with the 305 mesh.

350 vs. 305 doesn't sound significant difference to me. Or am I wrong? Or one should use even higher mesh?

 

[Kansascheapskate]

Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone had discovered anything new on the silk screening of decals? I have been setting up screens and using One Shot directly on larger models for simple lettering to go outside. I would really like to do reverse decal silk screening like they used to and then clear coat them to seal but I can not find the Duplex paper like they used to sell. I really enjoy silk screening but am not very good with computers so if anyone has made decals with this method since the last post please let me know, this is an art I want to master.

Thanks!

 

[Tin Falcon]

well KC Not sure what to say here. Silk screening has been around for a long time. And I am sure is still extensively used. As I mentioned in an earlier thread making silk screens was an old trade of mine. I did it professionally for 7 years. But that was almost 30 years ago. I do remember a bit but I expect a lot has has changed in those years.
The mechanics of making the screen coating exposing etc is probably the same . I expect the chemistry has changed a bit with environmental concerns always in the for front. What IMHO has changed a lot is artwork preparation. When I was in High school some 35 years ago we used huge process cameras photographic film and photographic chemicals to make a film negative then a film positive then a silk screen or many silk screens. In the 80s there was a process called PMT Photo-mechanical-transfer. It was an attempt to simplify photochemisry . It was akin to Polaroid photography. The concept was expose a sensitized piece of paper to light in a camera. then laminate the paper to a receiver sheet paper or film via a chemical bathe and rubber rollers then set the timer wait a few minutes pull the sheets apart and you would have a clean photo or film positive.
Computers have pretty much changed that. Artwork is created and prepared with a computer. we have our own typesetting and print shop in our homes.
Film positives are printed with a lazer printer.
That said I also learned to make basic film positives with rubylith and amberlith.
As far as home shop silk screen printing I did a few silk screen textile projects T-shirts for church Vacation Bible school . I would print a shirt for each kid then give then special crayons to colorize and customize there shirt. My wife also had a side craft business in the early '90s I printed a few t shirts and sweat shirts for that.
I improvised my own equipment to expose the screens and washed them out in the bath tub. I used water based inks as I was working in my house. And I found reclaiming the screens did not work as the chemistry had changed.
So I will help as I can and probably teach some of the old ways. That is if the materials are still available. I may have to relearn and research a bit . But ask away I will try to help.
One favor to ask of you Please post an introduction in the welcome sub fora tell us about yourself your shop and your interest in model engines.
Tin

 

[Kansascheapskate]

Thanks, I posted an intro.

I know the process you are talking about. Years ago when the local newspaper changed printing processes I bought out their shop. I got the litho and offset photography set up and it also works for making screens. (I also got 3 Linotypes, a Ludlow and a variety of letterpress presses if anyone needs a bunch of printing )

The main problem I have is finding a transfer material I can silkscreen on and then slip only the screened pigment onto my object to receive the decal without any clear material coming with it. The screen needs to be a negative so you get a reverse decal for the transfer. I do lots of really fine restorations on things that had decals and after putting hundreds of hours into a project its kind of a shame to put a modern decal on that everyone knows is not correct.

Thanks again!

 

[Tin Falcon]

IMHO the next step would be to search Internet archives and goodle books for old 1880s to 1920 vintage printing books.
I have a few but not sure which ones contain the silk screen stuff.


It is cool you are preserving the old technology. There was a treaead here a while back discussing the linotype machine.
Tin

 

[Kansascheapskate]

I have found lots of info on how to do it, the problem is they all call for Duplex paper that was made in Italy until about 2008 or so. I have found a place in India that has it if you buy a pallet but here in the States nothing. They used a cornstarch like material to cover the paper, that let the ink or paint dry and set with out bleed, when doing a negative the decal was then slipped off with the printed side down and sealed when dry. I have not found a modern paper or plastic that I can do this with. I think in the end they used a different gum besides cornstartch but it has to be something water soluable yet will hold ink, I may have to try to make my own but that could be tricky. Thanks

 

[Codybudro]

Has anyone discovered any alternative solutions for the “duplex” or “uncoated” paper? I cannot find much.