Shows keep getting smaller!

[Vietti]

The two shows I go to have gone to a donation system instead of an entrance fee. Both organizers tell me it is working OK. I try to contribute to insure the viability of the shows.

 

[kf2qd]

I guess I am the odd man out in that the cost of things is a major factor in what I do or don't do. I have to control my expenses and the cost of travel, entrance fees and lodging are significant. I am delighted that some are wealthy enough that these aspects don't even enter your mind. Must be that I am part of the wrong club and should see myself to the door as I don't have the wealth enough to be involved here. And thank you for letting me know that because my priorities don't come up to your high standards that I am very wrong and the real problem with why these events are struggling.

 

[Jasonb]

I have always look at it this way

If I can buy some metal from one of the traders at the show then the saving on postage will cover the entrance fee.

If I do the same a few more times with other purchases and maybe get a bit of discount for cash then that will cover my fuel bill, at least for the more local shows.

Just doing that for a one day visit has only cost me my time.

 

[GreenTwin]

I guess I am the odd man out in that the cost of things is a major factor in what I do or don't do. I have to control my expenses and the cost of travel, entrance fees and lodging are significant. I am delighted that some are wealthy enough that these aspects don't even enter your mind. Must be that I am part of the wrong club and should see myself to the door as I don't have the wealth enough to be involved here. And thank you for letting me know that because my priorities don't come up to your high standards that I am very wrong and the real problem with why these events are struggling.

Well, I am in the same boat (welcome to the club).
It is not a matter of me spending on shows instead of golf or other hobbies.
I don't have other hobbies, and I still don't have money for attending shows.
Prices have gone up to the point that for me, I feel lucky to be able to pay bills, much less travel.
Such as it is.
Money is a minor problem in this city; we also have out of control crime, as if the money problem was not bad enough.

I am still holding out for some sort of virtual engine show, set up like some sort of zoom meeting.
Live streaming is pretty cool.
Who knows how to set this up?
At this point I think I would rather invest in a server than a show, just due to the cost of traveling these days.
.

 

[gbritnell]

This thread is just a conversation about the current situation of model engineering shows. There is no attempt to belittle anyone for not being able to afford going to a show. There is no reason for sarcasm. I don't attend the Cabin Fever show because I can't afford it. At least one or two days off work. Fuel for the 600 mile round trip. Turnpike tolls. Lodging for at least two nights. Food while attending the show. Without adding it up its in the neighborhood of $600 not counting time from work so your situation is completely understandable..
Green Twin, there is a forum named The Office of Steam for Toy and Model Steam and Gas Engines. The have done several virtual engine shows on the forum. It might be something to consider for everyones interest.

 

[compressorguy]

Well, you don't see ME attending NAMES or any other show on the east coast. It's far more than 12 hours for those of us on the Left coast--it would be easier to fly but I thimpfk the airlines might object to all those metal engines. ON the Left coast, I know that San Francisco must have a show but I never hear about it. Portland also might have a show or at least some place in Oregon. But if there is a show in the Soviet, I've never heard of it.

We used to have GEARS in Eugene, OR. It brought people from the whole west coast, but they started a show in California and GEARS faded away. Now there is nothing up here. Not even any clubs north of Portland. I used to belong to two clubs in Eugene and Corvallis, but the Eugene club died. There are no groups in Seattle at all and the Portland Model Engineers club is dying slowly. Just no interest among the younger generations.

 

[Richard Hed]

We used to have GEARS in Eugene, OR. It brought people from the whole west coast, but they started a show in California and GEARS faded away. Now there is nothing up here. Not even any clubs north of Portland. I used to belong to two clubs in Eugene and Corvallis, but the Eugene club died. There are no groups in Seattle at all and the Portland Model Engineers club is dying slowly. Just no interest among the younger generations.

Yes, what a shame, I know for sure that the Soviet has MANY enthusiasts in it, but it must be the oppressive air of sovietism or something?! I thimpfk Oregon has many enthusiasts too. CAlifornia is too far for me to drive (except that I am presently in Henderson, Nevada). In Washington, a nice central area to meet might be Yakima, as it has nice dry weather most of the time and is large enough to have motels, food etc. I don't know of any enthusiasts in the Yak area tho'. Idaho and Montana have some.

OHooh?! I didn't notice you are in Chehalis. I was born in a log cabin manger in Centralia! Grew up in Yelm and now live in MOses Lake.

 

[gbritnell]

I think our hobby, model engineering, . was somewhat born from a time when craftsmanship was still commonplace. Let's start out with something quite mundane, a fence. Iron fences were decorative with finials and scroll work and wood fences with trellises were the norm. Now replaced with plastic. Woodwork in houses was fancy even for the middle class home. Hardwoods were used and chair rails and crown moldings were used. Now if used at all most times they're plastic. Head boards and furniture had sculpted shapes and most times were made from some type of good wood mahogany,, oak or walnut. I remember my parents had radios and later tv consoles that were made with mahogany with fancy wood grill work. Now they're either veneered or made of plastic. The automobiles of the teens and through the thirties had parts that were not only functional but artistic, hood ornaments were artistic and badging was done with enameling or cloisonné.

A lot of home shops were born from wartime. It's not that people back then could afford mills and lathes for a home shop but a lot of them came about to support the war parts manufacturing effort. I grew up when the average high school offered mechanical drawing, and had wood and metal shops. Now if available at all they are only offered at vocational schools. My friends and I all worked on motor scooter and later cars and engines. Now you go to a car show and talk to some of the owners and they had the engine built by someone else, they didn't do the body work or the paint. On top of it the cost in a lot of cases is out of the reach of the working families of today.

I have built model cars and airplanes for as long as I can remember. I belong to a local plastic model club and when I joined there would be upwards of 15 members at each once a month meeting. Now were lucky to get 5. We talk about getting the younger generations involved but even when they have what's known as a make-and-take at the bigger shows it's just and instant gratification and I doubt goes any farther.
I am also an artist and have belonged to several art leagues over the years. Over time the interest faded and they eventually disbanded.

To condense this the bottom line is things have changed, lifestyles, costs, interests. I have two sons, one is quite mechanical and the other not so much. The one enjoys working on cars and motorcycles while the other cuts grass and waxes his car. Although they love my work and what i have done over the years neither of them has any interest in turning handles. I don't blame them for that because I didn't follow in my father's footsteps either.

As far as model engineering shows go it's up to us to keep them going as long as possible. if we want them to survive at all. I attended the first show in Indiana last year. The organizers went out of their way to provide a suitable venue for for the exhibitors. Even with my health issues I attended this year's show. I thought the number and variety of model displays was great for only the second year but to be honest I was really bummed out by the number of spectators. I know the show had good advertising through the forums and in print but the Saturday crowd was underwhelming. The few people I did have conversation with were genuinely interested but then some just kind of walked past.
Hopefully I will be able to attend next year and keep this hobby going for the near future.

 

[GreenTwin]

Without deepdiving into a lot of quasi-political/economic ideas about why society is changing, suffice it to say that technology has changed society very dramatically in the last 200 years, and there has been an exponential change since the advent of modern 3-phase electrical systems were introduced in the late 1800's.
For a while, engineers were started at the bottom of a company, moved up, often working many positions in the company, and eventually becomming CEO.
Now days the beancounters have completely taken over most companies, and so it is not a matter of producing a well engineered product, but rather unparalleled and unchecked greed, and all products are cheap and disposable, and also non-repairable.
Humans have become a commodity, and those who work for the least amount of money are the ones who get the jobs and factories.
Everything is much bigger, and bigger is definitely not better.
I read an article yesterday about chip wars. The country who builds the best and most chips wins, because the world runs on chips now, especially the military and intelligence communities.

My dad was a prolific model engine builder, and he freelanced engines generally using a few prints he found in old books; all barstock builds, and all fully functional engines. Dad refused to use computers, and only towards the end of his life did he get a dumb cell phone.
No amount of persuasion could get my dad to learn CAD. He said "Learn it for what ?".
My dad was a quintessential "old-schooler".

My approach to the model building hobby is to use new tools to accurately create old engines, much in the way that some folks can recreate very authentic looking arrowheads that are so genuine looking that they have to be labeled so as not to confuse them with the old original arrowheads.
I use a manual lathe and mill, with poor-man's DRO's, which are digital verneer calipers clamped on (and that works very well).
But I use Solidworks, and a 3D printer for design and pattern making, and an iron foundry that uses the latest advanced materials and techniques.
I like fasteners to look exactly like they did in the old days, and I don't like to simplify designs just because a model is being made.

To each their own.
My interest in all things technical took off during the Saturn rocket era, and I was obsessed with the internal workings of that spacecraft.

Fast forward to today. Anyone can purchase a cell phone with 10 bazzillion (my joke term) transistors and 100 bazzillion lines of code, and enter a world of artificial reality, all in high resolution color animation that is shockingly realistic.
So many young people become totally absorbed in video games. I was a huge fan of Myst, as well as Microsoft Flight Simulator.
With video games, you can be anything, go anywhere, and do anything, and it is hard to complete with that level of technical sophistication.

Today's technical students learn 3D modeling and CNC machining.
I have seen technical schools near this area that require the entire class to design a model hit-and-miss engine in 3D, CNC machine it, assemble it, and make it run on the table.
Pretty interesting to see a room full of these running. I was naive enough to ask the instructor "Where do you keep all your lathes and mills ?".
LOL, we are at the dawn of a new era.
There is no turning back at this point.
Adapt or go the way of the dodo; it is as simple as that.

We need a "Plan B" for this hobby, but I am not sure what that plan looks like.

Edit:
I have often thought that someone needs to create a video game for virtual machining, so that people could learn to run a lathe and mill on the computer. You could have tool selection, feed and speed, etc., with parts crashes if you feed too fast, or if you don't grip the part well enough.
Many in the hobby I talk to create very eleborate 3D models that function in simulation, such as entire very complex locomotives that are complete down to the smallest detail.
At the very least, we need to preserve the knowledge of how to use the old machines, and how to use the old methods like foundry work.

Edit02:
In my opinion, but foundry side of the hobby has pretty much been lost, with a few notable exceptions here and there.
I have worked overtime to save the foundry side of this hobby, and I value that knowledge a great deal.
.

 

[Richard Hed]

Without deepdiving into a lot of quasi-political/economic ideas about why society is changing, suffice it to say that technology has changed society very dramatically in the last 200 years, and there has been an exponential change since the advent of modern 3-phase electrical systems were introduced in the late 1800's.
For a while, engineers were started at the bottom of a company, moved up, often working many positions in the company, and eventually becomming CEO.
Now days the beancounters have completely taken over most companies, and so it is not a matter of producing a well engineered product, but rather unparalleled and unchecked greed, and all products are cheap and disposable, and also non-repairable.
Humans have become a commodity, and those who work for the least amount of money are the ones who get the jobs and factories.
Everything is much bigger, and bigger is definitely not better.
I read an article yesterday about chip wars. The country who builds the best and most chips wins, because the world runs on chips now, especially the military and intelligence communities.

My dad was a prolific model engine builder, and he freelanced engines generally using a few prints he found in old books; all barstock builds, and all fully functional engines. Dad refused to use computers, and only towards the end of his life did he get a dumb cell phone.
No amount of persuasion could get my dad to learn CAD. He said "Learn it for what ?".
My dad was a quintessential "old-schooler".

My approach to the model building hobby is to use new tools to accurately create old engines, much in the way that some folks can recreate very authentic looking arrowheads that are so genuine looking that they have to be labeled so as not to confuse them with the old original arrowheads.
I use a manual lathe and mill, with poor-man's DRO's, which are digital verneer calipers clamped on (and that works very well).
But I use Solidworks, and a 3D printer for design and pattern making, and an iron foundry that uses the latest advanced materials and techniques.
I like fasteners to look exactly like they did in the old days, and I don't like to simplify designs just because a model is being made.

To each their own.
My interest in all things technical took off during the Saturn rocket era, and I was obsessed with the internal workings of that spacecraft.

Fast forward to today. Anyone can purchase a cell phone with 10 bazzillion (my joke term) transistors and 100 bazzillion lines of code, and enter a world of artificial reality, all in high resolution color animation that is shockingly realistic.

Today's technical students learn 3D modeling and CNC machining.
I have seen technical schools near this area that require the entire class to design a model hit-and-miss engine in 3D, CNC machine it, assemble it, and make it run on the table.
Pretty interesting to see a room full of these running. I was naive enough to ask the instructor "Where do you keep all your lathes and mills ?".
LOL, we are at the dawn of a new era.
There is no turning back at this point.
Adapt or go the way of the dodo; its as simple as that.

We need a "Plan B" for this hobby, but I am not sure what that plan looks like.

.

I was told by an instructor in CNC that fellow instructors that are over 40 believe that students should learn on non-CNC machines THEN move to CNC, but people UNDER 40 (and what would THEY know?) recommend going directly to CNC. HOwever, people who hire those CNC operators complain about the newbies breaking a lot of tools. Well, what newbie is not going to break a few tools? Even in manual, I broke lots of tools and occassionally, I STILL break tools.
I have some students that are interested in learning, but oddly, the girls know more about mechanical things than the boys. One eager boy know absolutely NOTHING, but I have taught him to use a file and belt sander, how to break taps (1/8th" very easy to break) and other necessary hand type learning. I have 6 students and an wanted them to learn hand tapping so I bot 6 taps (1/8th", and I KNOW, I KNOW! how easy they are to break), thimpkfking that one student would NOT break any, that one student would probably break three, but they all broke at least one and I had to buy some more. BUT the project got completed, they did this in steel--next project, aluminum.
The project is a wobbler, with many modifications, as I am also teaching the same students another class which fits nicely with making changes.
HOw many of us know what a starter tap is?, a bottom tap and a middle tap? MY students had never heard of any of these. And on and on and on--Very few people were born knowing any of this, (at least I don't know of any), we all have to learn, and in todays modern world of never allowing a baby to fall or a child to get a cut, or an adolescent to do or learn anything useful, we necessarily have to start with them at the bottom.
My students ARE eager, but across the street is a whole highschool filled with UNeager students. What will happen when the great shakeout comes? A lot of hungry zombies.

 

[GreenTwin]

To me, it is like when the monks or others take care of the ancient scripts/books, while civilization waxes and wanes.
If the knowledge can be preserved somehow, then that would at least give the opportunity of a renaissance in the hobby one day.
If every model engine that has ever been built is somehow lost, that is not really what is important.
What is important is retaining the knowledge of how to recreate and use those devices.

One thing I have seen at the Soule show, and also at the many art-iron cupola events I have attended, is that people of all ages and backgrounds really like to see molten iron poured in front of their eyes.
Its like mini-lava, and the sight, smell, and intense heat that can be felt from 20 feet away tend to impress everyone.
The art iron folks provide blank molded sand "scratch blocks", and you can purchase one and engrave your own design into the sand.
The molds are then poured with molten iron, and the audience can take that "iron-art" that they created themselves home.
Its a great way of pulling the audience into the process/hobby, and getting them physically involved.
They also sponsor art-iron internships, and teach college-age folks the metal arts; which are very involved and intense classes/topics.

So every engine show should at a minimum have a stack of wobble parts available, and anyone should be able to walk up and assemble/run their own wobbler on the spot, and take that engine home.
Likewise, I think adding interactive foundry work to engine shows would add an entirely new and interesting perspective to the hobby.
What kid does not like playing with fire and molten lava ?

I appreciate the intense competition I see at the engine shows, which results in some astounding work by folks who are at the very peak of the hobby. Those folks are by and large exiting the end of the pipeline though, and we need to insert the next generation into the pipeline; somehow.
.

 

[peterl95124]

I don't blame them for that because I didn't follow in my father's footsteps either.

the only constant in life is change !!!

 

[Richard Carlstedt]

How much does it cost for an table at one of these shows? And what does it cost for a motel room in the city where the show is taking place? If those that would exhibit can't afford the fees, then they won't come. It happens with a lot of these events - craft shows and such, the exhibitor fees keep going up, the exhibitor has to have some way to pay the fees, or they quit coming. How much of the death of these shows is the greed of the venue? the greed of the sponsor? The age of the exhibitor and their limited financial resources? Visitors not having extra money so they aren't buying much from the vendors?

How much did you spend at the show? how much did it cost you to go to the show? How much more did it cost this year than last year? How are your household finances doing this year as compared to previous years? When was the last time you exhibited?

Let me answer you on costs
I spent $ 685 for travel (800 Mi- RT) and Lodging and Tolls , and $15 entrance fee---total $700
Food was what a normal days cost would be whether at the show or home and eating out. ( a Wash)
This was the two day show in Indiana.
Seeing others "solutions" ---priceless
Meeting friends with common interest--priceless

I could stay home and save $700 + dollars...but will I ever be ahead ?
financially maybe -socially never-- and the big thing is learning others mistakes when considering "your" new project --priceless
Rich

 

[GreenTwin]

Throw in the cost of gasoline for a 22 hour round trip, and it is game-over for me.
I have been priced out of the hobby market.

.

 

[gbritnell]

Well said Rich! If model engineering is of prime importance to a person then he or she could consider it a vacation. We have to take what we have as far as locations. There are only a few show venues remaining and need to be supported if we want any of them to continue.

 

[stanstocker]

Going to shows just for the show can be a tough call. Usually there is an interesting place or places along the way, add a few and an extra travel day. One of our girls lives in Lansing, so we saw her then dropped down to Auburn for the show and came home via a southern route we had not taken before. Got to see some new parts of the country. I plan on adding a second night in Auburn next year to allow for seeing some of the other museums as well. I just wish the Midwest RepRap Festival was only offset by a week from the Auburn ME show. It would be a week in Nerdvana!

Cabin Fever combines a visit with a friend of the last 40+ years who is an hour and a half from the show. He has difficulty doing long drives, usually I grab him and he gets to enjoy the show without having to drive and we catch up and watch stupid movies back at his place. Now that his daughters have moved out odds are I'll stay at his place so the added days will only cost gas and some food. Other than long phone calls it's the chance to catch up in person. Too cold that time of year in central PA to go out and crash quick build foam RC aircraft while drinking good bourbon. It's gives Terri a break from my charming self for a few days too!

Terri and I were talking about hitting the Black Hills show as part of her big desire to see more of the west and south west. I would not drive so far just for a show, won't lie about that. But to do a several week grand tour why not figure out a way to include a show as a nice way to break up the travel days?

As I get older I find much more than 6 hours of driving per day to be pushing it, a knee and hip start to get quite uncomfortable. The mind is 18, but the body is geezing... Fortunately there is almost always something interesting along the way to somewhere else if you look for it. Planning trips to avoid long slogs for a single event makes the entire trip far more pleasant.

When I was still working full time making it to one show took some juggling, and lots of shows just were not in the cards as I couldn't afford to burn that many vacation days. It's not surprising that many of these shows have a majority of older attendees. The younger still working folks in the area can get to them or handle doing a full day at a show plus 6 or 8 hours driving. The old folks have the freedom to travel a few days. If you think back to when you were young, it was the older guys who were making model ships and fooling with RC planes, there never were lots of folks doing ME stuff. When you are young you're chasing girls and a career, getting established as an adult, just too many other things on the plate that are higher priorities.

 

[jiminva]

I would love to go to a show, but I have never heard of any in the Mid-Atlantic area ( I am in Norfolk, Va.) Maybe they just need to advertise more effectively.

 

[stanstocker]

I would love to go to a show, but I have never heard of any in the Mid-Atlantic area ( I am in Norfolk, Va.) Maybe they just need to advertise more effectively.

I'm up in Mathews so we're distant neighbors In Lebanon, PA is Cabin Fever (cabinfeverexpo.com) at around 6 hours drive, maybe 7 with some traffic. With no Key Bridge it looks like the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel comes to the party or the west side Baltimore Beltway slog for those headed north via routes east of 95.

The only shows of some perhaps slightly related interest are the model train shows at Richmond Race Track and at the Hampton Colosseum.

Some of the Steam and Gas Engine gatherings have small areas of model engineering, there is a good one in Powhatan and a few others within several hours of Norfolk. At least they let you see machines, coal, moving parts, and a chance to get outside and ogle oddball hit and miss and old ag equipment. Usually some smithing going on and other sorts of stuff as many are "field days of the past" focused.

 

[SmithDoor]

I've seen it on the forums, both this one and other groups. Guys are saying they are worried about shows getting smaller and are worried that they will be gone. We'll not all of you, but a good number of you, come to the show and leave your models at home. Instead of showing up empty handed maybe think about bringing your creations and filling those empty tables. The guys who do show are aging and won't be able to do it forever. There are many people, younger guys, who bring a few things in there pockets and tell me about There projects back at home. Bring them out! If the younger able guys don't start showing, the tables will continue to get emptier until there isn't much worth looking at. Don't complain that the tables were empty at a show you went to when you left a dozen models in your garage to go there.

Just Sayin!

Back in the 1960's and 1970’s I think when hobbies was strong.
Companies manufacturing hobby tools was strong too.

I have seen this in hobbies getting smaller.
I few idea's why but only what I think. It could be TV sport games , maybe cellphone/ computer games, stress of schools and college , guns and or Facebook groups.
You think sewing would stay strong that drop too.
Manufactures of hobbies tools has drop too. In LA you small Manufactures in homes same buildings today hard to find.

The only thing up coming is big stories like Hobby Lobby.

It is like son just now in his 30's getting to hubbies.
In welding I am seeing some in there 40's stating welding.
Like said only guessing

Dave

 

[ShopShoe]

Since this thread has been bumped.....

Regarding the high costs of shows for viewers and participants: Another factor is the cost of liability insurance. Not only have engine, tractor, aircraft, and car events diminished, but town celebrations and festivals are going away because insurers and organizers are seeing chances for injury all over the place. I also think the reports of violence around the world have something to do with it.

Perhaps the idea of a virtual show has merit, but maybe YouTube and forums like this one are also stealing the thunder.

The only other thing I can say (again) is that perhaps reaching out to other, similar hobbies and co-exhibiting from time to time might help.

Meanwhile: Attend some of the local events that are a little off-interest. Make yourself available as a source of knowledge to young people interested in learning outside of school . Volunteer to help stage local events. Attend things like local school events, Go see what Scouts, 4-H, and FFA kids are displaying (You might be surprised.)

--ShopShoe (Decades-ago historical film restorer and presenter, Former High-School History Day and K-12 Technology Fair Volunteer organizer and judge. Former community theatre stagecraft flunkey and volunteer archivist for historical artifacts.)