Shop layout, necessities

[zeeprogrammer]

Just have to comment about carpet...

I think it either needs to go or be completely covered wall-to-wall.
It just takes one bit of curled steel or brass in the carpet to convince you.

I know some people have completely enclosed their machines...but even they seem convinced that the swarf jumps out on its on when the door is opened. If you could make a wing out of swarf...it would fly on its own.

My floor is vinyl that I'd laid down over the basement floor. I clean up before going upstairs and am amazed how much swarf I find on the the little mat I have at the bottom of the stairs. It mostly comes from the shoes. Some people keep a separate pair of shoes in the shop that they change into/out of as they enter or leave.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Well I do have carpet in my shop. The vinyl tile floor was getting scratched from heavy traffic and swarf so I have a piece of scrap industrial carpet in front of my lathe in the high traffic area. And carpet in most of the room an anti fatigue mat that I salvaged in fron of the main work bench. so all the floor covering except the floor tile in my shop is hand me down stuff I do not need to worry about.
If in a rental situation with wall to wall carpet I think Z is right cover it with something. Floor mats plywood etc.

I remember years ago there was a traveling wild west show that came to town held in the gym of the local college. the floor was covered with homosote . Yes there were horses inside the building in the gym. Protect the carpet protect your security deposit. also do not forget the walls behind the lathe. I have a sheet of plexiglass behind mine oil stripes behind machines happen.
Tin

 

[Rayanth]

well, i realized i had some spare time today (rare occurence) and went to the local Harbor Freight to see what they have. They had a display model of a7x10 lathe so I played with that for a short while, but I'm surprised at just how small it really is. I now have a better understanding of what can really be done with that size lathe, and I'm certain I will need something a bit larger.

They did not have any mills in stock, but they did say if their website has it (and it's not being clearanced) they can order it to the store to save me shipping. I'm wary of that route, after the revelation of the size of the lathe.

One of the three Grizzly outlets is about an hour drive from me. perhaps one of these weekends I can swing up there and see the broader selection they have available.

- Ryan

 

[Sshire]

Be aware that virtually everything that you'll want (even 123 blocks) at grizz has a looooong waiting list and/or is out of stock. I had ordered the G0702 in May and was told it would arrive in July. July email from grizz said new ship date would be October. I cancelled and ordered the Precision Matthews 1127VF a few weeks ago. I should have it Aug 15 or thereabouts.
Just sayin'
Stan

 

[Swede]

I'm a little late to this thread... Ryan, I have no idea where you are at in the acquisition phase, so these comments might not even apply.

If you want to build radials, you're really going to need a 10" or larger lathe to do it in a reasonable time frame. The old saying is VERY true - "buy the biggest machine you can afford." Machine tools are expensive, heavy, and a pain to sell or move, so it is best to do it right the first time.

A 4" to 6" crankcase will lose maybe 90% of its mass when cut from bar, and while I've heard 100 guys say "I'm in no rush, I'll do it with 0.006" passes" meaning boring it out will take over 600 passes of the boring tool, and then reality hits. It's not fun doing this, and importantly, when you're doing something 600 times, the chances of something going wrong on one of them goes way up. My radial crankcase was chucked for over a week, IIRC. It lived in the 3-jaw that whole time.

And to hold a 4" aluminum round correctly requires at least a 6" chuck, preferably an 8" chuck. And that means a 12" or larger lathe.

Next is the mill. You've got your turned crankcase mounted on a rotary table or spacer. It's situated vertically on a mill table, because each cylinder station must be precision bored and milled. Add up the height requirements... you've got a 6" diameter spacer with the crankcase in it, a 3" boring tool, a 3" head for the tool with the shank above that. At least 10" to 12" of free space between spindle nose and table. That's not a small mill. It might exceed many of the benchtop mills out there.

I don't want to discourage you, but you need to be aware of this. You can make a Luhr's engine on tabletop machines, but it is going to be very challenging to make something bigger.

On CNC - some guys love it, use it all the time. It seems ideal for making multiple parts, but to do ONE part, you've got to model it, post-process, verify toolpath, set it up, run it. In the time it takes, I'll have it done already twice over the old-fashioned way. CNC can be a great addition, but I'd start manually first. That will give you an idea of what works, how big a bite you can take, what sorts of feeds and speeds work well.

Good luck!

 

[Mosey]

Well I do have carpet in my shop. The vinyl tile floor was getting scratched from heavy traffic and swarf so I have a piece of scrap industrial carpet in front of my lathe in the high traffic area. And carpet in most of the room an anti fatigue mat that I salvaged in fron of the main work bench. so all the floor covering except the floor tile in my shop is hand me down stuff I do not need to worry about.
If in a rental situation with wall to wall carpet I think Z is right cover it with something. Floor mats plywood etc.

I remember years ago there was a traveling wild west show that came to town held in the gym of the local college. the floor was covered with homosote . Yes there were horses inside the building in the gym. Protect the carpet protect your security deposit. also do not forget the walls behind the lathe. I have a sheet of plexiglass behind mine oil stripes behind machines happen.
Tin

Homasote...a good Trenton NJ product.

 

[Rayanth]

Swede, Thanks a ton for your input, it confirmed a few of my suspicions for making radials =)

I've not yet begun to acquire tools, but I've begun to set aside my budget for it. I am not quite certain I'm up to a radial just yet, and I can foresee the possibility that having both a larger lathe and a smaller benchtop lathe could come in handy, if I wish to stop and make other parts while working something that I just don't want to remove.

CNC is more of an interest due to the fact that some parts of certain types of complexity are virtually impossible by hand. I eventually intend to do other things with my tools, both as other projects or to just add other types of flair to my engines, such as engravings and the like. CNC would come in very handy for this, even as one-offs, and I do understand that setup for a cnc job is tedious, but in the long run, it can add a flair that makes it worth it, if the profile is otherwise just too hard, or impossible, manually.

It's really hard to sit down and quantify all of my desires for the shop, and thus get the 'perfect' list together. Right now I'm balancing between waiting significantly longer to get the bigger machinery to do everything I want to do, or starting small, working smaller projects and getting started earlier (and feeding my appetite and ambition to make chips) while I save up and get bigger machines later. I'm kind of leaning on the latter idea, as the smaller machines can always be used for other projects, or dedicated to small CNC projects.

- Ryan

 

[steamboatmodel]

I'm a little late to this thread... Ryan, I have no idea where you are at in the acquisition phase, so these comments might not even apply.

If you want to build radials, you're really going to need a 10" or larger lathe to do it in a reasonable time frame. The old saying is VERY true - "buy the biggest machine you can afford." Machine tools are expensive, heavy, and a pain to sell or move, so it is best to do it right the first time.

A 4" to 6" crankcase will lose maybe 90% of its mass when cut from bar, and while I've heard 100 guys say "I'm in no rush, I'll do it with 0.006" passes" meaning boring it out will take over 600 passes of the boring tool, and then reality hits. It's not fun doing this, and importantly, when you're doing something 600 times, the chances of something going wrong on one of them goes way up. My radial crankcase was chucked for over a week, IIRC. It lived in the 3-jaw that whole time.

And to hold a 4" aluminum round correctly requires at least a 6" chuck, preferably an 8" chuck. And that means a 12" or larger lathe.

Next is the mill. You've got your turned crankcase mounted on a rotary table or spacer. It's situated vertically on a mill table, because each cylinder station must be precision bored and milled. Add up the height requirements... you've got a 6" diameter spacer with the crankcase in it, a 3" boring tool, a 3" head for the tool with the shank above that. At least 10" to 12" of free space between spindle nose and table. That's not a small mill. It might exceed many of the benchtop mills out there.

I don't want to discourage you, but you need to be aware of this. You can make a Luhr's engine on tabletop machines, but it is going to be very challenging to make something bigger.

On CNC - some guys love it, use it all the time. It seems ideal for making multiple parts, but to do ONE part, you've got to model it, post-process, verify toolpath, set it up, run it. In the time it takes, I'll have it done already twice over the old-fashioned way. CNC can be a great addition, but I'd start manually first. That will give you an idea of what works, how big a bite you can take, what sorts of feeds and speeds work well.

Good luck!

I have to agree with the above. CNC is great, but you have to learn how to do it with a manual mill before you try it with CNC.
Regards,
Gerald
Retired CNC Programmer/Operator.

 

[Swede]

Ryan, I like your thoughts on getting started. If you wait until you know exactly what you want and need, you'll never start, because in the end, it's pretty much impossible to know exactly what you'll use and like, and what you'll not use so much. You've simply got to start somewhere. At the same time, you don't want to shell out $8,000 for a fully tooled Myford that would be a dream machine for many who do all their work on a slightly smaller scale, but doesn't quite have the swing you'll need. And the mill is even more important.

I truly respect guys who are able to do mill processes in a lathe, like setting up a big angle iron on a faceplate and milling radial cylinder stations. It can be done, but with a vertical mill of adequate size, you'll be able to do the same thing in 1/5th of the time.

Nothing can be more frustrating than a mill that chokes on its own Z axis. Even a drill chuck and a jobbers drill will consume most of the Z on many bench machines, let alone adding 8" to 10" of crankcase beneath the drill. The cylinder stud holes and tappet holes fit this setup description. If you want to do this, it's going to take a true knee mill.

If I could own only two machine tools, I'd pick a knee mill with at least an 8" X 36" table, a mini-bridgeport sized machine, and I'd want at least a 10" lathe with 1.5 or more HP. Rigidity and power need mass to make it work properly.

Bridgeport mills are all over the place, cheap, as machine shops shift to CNC to be competitive. Nice lathes can be more challenging. There's nothing wrong with getting started smaller, but remember that there's nothing you can do on a Sherline that someone can't also do (probably better) on a Hardinge or Monarch. So I wouldn't dump too much money into smaller equipment unless you are determined to make the smaller stuff work.

Machining as a hobby is logistically difficult. It's not like buying a saxophone or an oil painting set to give those a whirl. You are committing to expensive and heavy tools that are not easy to sell and move. ;D

 

[Rayanth]

And it's that last part that kind of scares me. The moving of these machines that weigh more than a ton....that was why I was focused on benchtop stuff to start with. Something that's 300 pounds, assembled, can be disassembled and rebuilt on the bench, or at the worst, lifted up with an engine hoist.

How do you move around the big guns? If I buy a house 5 years from now, and want to move my 3000 pound Bridgeport, who do I call? I suppose I can rent something from hertz to make local in the shop moves, but anything more than just two houses down the street is surely a logistical problem, how do you guys do it?

 

[zeeprogrammer]

I know it's been mentioned before...but it's worth mentioning again...safety.

Fire extinguisher near the entrance/exit, first aid kit, and a phone within reach. And it doesn't hurt for somebody to know you're in the shop.

My experience is limited to a mini-lathe and mini-mill...but I've found it very useful to have access to the mini-mill from at least two sides.

Whatever the size of equipment...the damage it can do may differ...but the considerations for safety is the same. Hm...I can apply that philosophy to some other hobbies of mine. ;D

 

[Mosey]

and of course, no sleeves, gloves, long hair, neckties, etc., on the machines.
Also, I think someone said along time ago, don't work alone.
I'm sure there are quite a bit more of these selectively-followed but important safety rules.

 

[Swede]

And it's that last part that kind of scares me. The moving of these machines that weigh more than a ton....that was why I was focused on benchtop stuff to start with. Something that's 300 pounds, assembled, can be disassembled and rebuilt on the bench, or at the worst, lifted up with an engine hoist.

How do you move around the big guns? If I buy a house 5 years from now, and want to move my 3000 pound Bridgeport, who do I call? I suppose I can rent something from hertz to make local in the shop moves, but anything more than just two houses down the street is surely a logistical problem, how do you guys do it?

It's not gobs of fun, but it can be done. It's possible to move machines around on a concrete floor with a little effort, by simply manhandling them... but obviously be careful. When the day comes for the big move, I'd go with the pros.

About 7 years ago, I moved to another house about 3 miles away. In my new shop, I laid out and marked on the floor, with masking tape, where I wanted the machines. Then I looked in the yellow pages for "Machinery riggers and movers" and started dialing the phone. In the end, I had 3 strapping young men, a flatbed trailer, a small forklift, and the tools and expertise to do the job properly. I told them "Put the lathe here, the mill here" and like magic, it was done safely. Worth every penny, I think I paid $500, and it was a load off my mind. My point is that there are people who do that for a living.

If you have to move long distances, it'll be more costly, but the same movers & riggers would move the machines to a shipping company. The shippers drive them to the new location, and then they, or another bunch of riggers, install them. When you think about the huge number of gigantic industrial machines that get moved around all the time, it makes sense that there are guys who specialize in this.

In the end, if you can't make what you want, you'll have regrets. Good luck!

 

[Rayanth]

I finally got a chance to see my new place today. As I may have mentioned earlier, I have been living with my parents since I got out of the United States Chair Force last September. To date, all of my 'machining' has been in CAD, and my head.

I found a 2-bedroom unit in a fourplex with detached one-car garage for a great price in the local area, and went to check it out today. the one-car garage is spacious, but it only has one outlet, and one single-bulb light in the center of the ceiling. there is a lot of natural light in the area with the door open, but I'm concerned about only having the one outlet.

Since it's wired for standard household current, and it's a rental, I know I will be limited in the size of the machines I can use (but hey at least it's a start!); I suppose with proper discipline, it can't be all that hard to only turn on one machine at a time. But I'm interested to know if anyone has had any bad experiences with plugging their machines in to power strips (without anything else actively running on them) as opposed to straight into the wall. It would be nice to have more outlets, so I'm not constantly unplugging and replugging, but I guess I need to know if it's unsafe, or unwise, to use a power strip? (I do understand it should be protected against swarf)

Thank you as always for all the great input you all provide, it has been incredibly helpful in preparing me for this hobby.

- Ryan

 

[ShopShoe]

Ryan,

Been there, Done That (but before metal machines.)

Is your garage one of four provided for all the tenants? The real concern with the one outlet is that it may be on the end of a circuit that also supplies other garages, operates yard lights or other things, etc. A lot depends on who wired it and when. Do you have access to the circuit breaker if you trip it? (You probably will.) Is it a GFCI outlet or circuit?

Regarding power strips, there are "Industrial" ones with heavy construction, lots of outlets, and longer and heavier cords. In my central USA location the main issue that waves red flags is when you plug power strips into power strips or use power strips with extension cords.

--ShopShoe

 

[Rayanth]

All good questions that I didn't bother to think of myself. I will look into these things when I go back next. The garage is one of four for the fourplex. They are all in one building and indeed it's attached to the main building, it is closest to the main building, but that doesn't mean much. As for circuit breakers I don't recall seeing them there, but my father (who is the rental company's handyman) is a certified electrician and can probably figure that part out for me. He could also replace the normal outlet with a gfci one, I suspect.

- Ryan

 

[Tin Falcon]

Ray you should also check and see if the lingt and the outlet are on the same circuit. It is much preferred
if they are not that way if a machine trips the breaker the lights do not go out.
Tin

 

[Rayanth]

Not looking so good. the circuit breakers for the garages are not accessible by the tenants, as far as I could tell. So if I trip one, I have to put in a maintenance call. For random reasons of irony, such a call would be answered by my own father (he's the rental management company's primary handyman contractor) but he'd still have to go get the keys, and that's just an annoyance I'd prefer to avoid.

He also suspects it's only a 15amp breaker. The only way out of that, that I can see, is having some sort of pre-breaker on the outlet side, set to say 14 amps, that would trip before the actual breaker, but I'm not even sure such a thing exists.

Looking like I'll be out of the hobby for longer.

-- Ryan

 

[Rayanth]

Apparently, according to my girlfriend, and something that is entirely news to me - there are "other hobbies out there"... I can't tell if she's pulling my leg, or actually being serious.

Contemplating getting back into r/c cars and planes and possibly boats. Could certainly do THOSE things on one outlet without access to the circuit breaker. (or even in the house if I really must) .. it will satisfy the itch to build something, until I can save up to buy a house, or rent a better place or something ;D

I won't go anywhere, and I'll still touch that R-4360 design project from time to time, but other things demand my attention and time, and it probably isn't the best time to be starting down this road.

- Ryan

 

[Maryak]

There are also other girls out there ;D ;D ;D ;D :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\