Round Ram Bridgeport

[ignator]

Hopsteiner: I have a Mitutoyo DRO on my Wells-Index mill. It is only a 2 axis for the X-Y table. I use a separate Mitutoyo quill, and I consider that an absolute requirement for proper depth down feed. I used that yesterday to make a controlled counter bore on a hole so they all matched up.
I did just purchase this off eBay for my surface grinder, and it has not shown up yet.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Linear-Sen...-Mill-Lathe-EDM/164344504230?var=463955632966
These low cost DROs were not available when I put them on my Mill and lathe, hence the Mitutoyo brand, which were affordable at the time. So we shall see if this low cost China DRO is any good, it is a "TOAUTO" brand, which I found on Amazon to have good reviews. So we shall see.

On a side note, an earlier photo of your electrical panel with the 2AWG wire pulled, you don't have a bushing where you pulled the wire through the rear knockout. You need to put in some material that prevents that steel box edge from contacting the wire going through it. If there is any spring force of the copper wire pushing on the raw steel edge, it will over time cold flow the insulation of the wire, and then a major short of the grounded panel to the copper wire occurs. I would just install some chunk of the largest rubber grommet where the wire is in contact to the steel edge. But that assumes no one messing with the wires behind that panel in the future.

If you have a VFD, you really should try that to power your 3phase motor. It does have to be a 200volt class, as they make them for 480volt and they are not compatible with the 240volt you have (400 volt class). I had a RPC, and am happy it is gone, it was a noise generator, and another power burner, that had to be started before I could use my mill. And the VFD is absolutely the best thing ever, as I leave the belts set to their mid point setting, and use the VFD to control the SFM cutter speed. As the motor is 4 pole on my machine, I enable the VFD to run 120Hz max output to give me the wide speed range. Also my VFD is what is called an sensorless vector type, which allows very low HZ with high torque of motor output.

 

[ignator]

Another thing I have found on ebay shipping is the price of the item is low but shipping is high. f there is a problem the seller will refund the item price but not the shipping. I just got a collet holder which was supposed to be EM20 but they shipped EM32. I can get a refund for the item price but I am out the shipping and have to send it back on my dime.

You have to make sure when you start the return process to click on the hidden "not as described" or wrong item sent. It's hidden as it's not an option on the screen, as there is a 'more' button or some other pull down click needed to see these other options. But doing this, the seller has to refund the original shipping, as well provide a shipping return label at their cost. I made that mistake last year, and once filed, I could not correct it, but a call to eBay's support (which is really hard to get too) they corrected the issue, and then the seller provided the shipping label, and I got the full refund.

 

[Gordon]

You have to make sure when you start the return process to click on the hidden "not as described" or wrong item sent. It's hidden as it's not an option on the screen, as there is a 'more' button or some other pull down click needed to see these other options. But doing this, the seller has to refund the original shipping, as well provide a shipping return label at their cost. I made that mistake last year, and once filed, I could not correct it, but a call to eBay's support (which is really hard to get too) they corrected the issue, and then the seller provided the shipping label, and I got the full refund.

Just went back to ebay and the seller had not responded so they refunded the entire amount. I guess that it was a cheap lesson. The entire sale was only $16 so it was not a big deal but it was not my fault that the seller shipped the wrong item. Lesson learned. Watch price AND shipping and look at more options on return. Actually I came out ahead because I can keep the item for free except that is not too helpful since it does not fit but maybe I can give it to a friend or I may have a use for it in the future.

 

[Hopsteiner]

Hopsteiner: I have a Mitutoyo DRO on my Wells-Index mill. It is only a 2 axis for the X-Y table. I use a separate Mitutoyo quill, and I consider that an absolute requirement for proper depth down feed. I used that yesterday to make a controlled counter bore on a hole so they all matched up.
I did just purchase this off eBay for my surface grinder, and it has not shown up yet.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Linear-Sen...-Mill-Lathe-EDM/164344504230?var=463955632966
These low cost DROs were not available when I put them on my Mill and lathe, hence the Mitutoyo brand, which were affordable at the time. So we shall see if this low cost China DRO is any good, it is a "TOAUTO" brand, which I found on Amazon to have good reviews. So we shall see.

On a side note, an earlier photo of your electrical panel with the 2AWG wire pulled, you don't have a bushing where you pulled the wire through the rear knockout. You need to put in some material that prevents that steel box edge from contacting the wire going through it. If there is any spring force of the copper wire pushing on the raw steel edge, it will over time cold flow the insulation of the wire, and then a major short of the grounded panel to the copper wire occurs. I would just install some chunk of the largest rubber grommet where the wire is in contact to the steel edge. But that assumes no one messing with the wires behind that panel in the future.

If you have a VFD, you really should try that to power your 3phase motor. It does have to be a 200volt class, as they make them for 480volt and they are not compatible with the 240volt you have (400 volt class). I had a RPC, and am happy it is gone, it was a noise generator, and another power burner, that had to be started before I could use my mill. And the VFD is absolutely the best thing ever, as I leave the belts set to their mid point setting, and use the VFD to control the SFM cutter speed. As the motor is 4 pole on my machine, I enable the VFD to run 120Hz max output to give me the wide speed range. Also my VFD is what is called an sensorless vector type, which allows very low HZ with high torque of motor output.

Thanks for the heads up on the sub panel. You’re absolutely right, that would be a very dangerous situation. I plan on replacing my service entrance panel which is only 100 amps. Went back and looked at my pictures. Not good.

 

[Sprocket]

Richard,
That is my version of the Zero-Six from Model Engine Builder. There were a couple of things that either didn't look right to me or the author said he'd do differently. Mechanically, it is as designed, but I made it look like I thought it should. A few pictures follow.
Hope I'm not disturbing this thread, but there you are Richard.

Doug

 

[Richard Hed]

Richard,
That is my version of the Zero-Six from Model Engine Builder. There were a couple of things that either didn't look right to me or the author said he'd do differently. Mechanically, it is as designed, but I made it look like I thought it should. A few pictures follow.
View attachment 124353 View attachment 124354 View attachment 124355 View attachment 124356 Hope I'm not disturbing this thread, but there you are Richard.

Doug

Thanx for showing. It's an ICE, I thot it might have been steam. do you have others? Do you have photos of this running?

 

[ignator]

Thanks for the heads up on the sub panel. You’re absolutely right, that would be a very dangerous situation. I plan on replacing my service entrance panel which is only 100 amps. Went back and looked at my pictures. Not good.

I had gotten beaten up by the local inspector here 5 years ago, it was on the main meter panel, which I replaced with a new one that had 4 circuit breaker slots for feeding power to different subpanels. I had fed wire back into the house's original service through a conduit fitting out the bottom of the panel that attached to the outside of the house. I had the original threaded 2" conduit fitting that had gone to the meter panel (1956 era). I cut the conduit shorter, and fed in the same wires plus a new ground sized to the same gauge as the L1/L2 power feeds, as the code changed to require that to be the same amperage capability. Anyway, there was a requirement for a grounding bushing that threaded onto the exposed threads of the conduit fitting. The inspector was good in that he suggested a split type bushing so I did not need to remove the wires to install the threaded on type. Even though the wires were not rubbing on the edge of the conduit fitting, he said I had to install that strain relief bushing. He said you never know when some electrician will pull on the wires in the future. Of all the inspectors I had, this guy was friendly, and not an *ss about a home owner doing their own construction. I had to pull a plumbing permit as well for the addition, and the county required I had a drawing of the plumbing I was performing. As it was, I replaced every drain pipe in the house, as they never drained properly. None of them had the required 1/4" per foot slope. And were in threaded steel pipe and cast iron main pipe to the septic system. This was all originally installed when there were no building codes. A cheap built home by amateurs. Same job I have with buying old used tools that need to be repaired.

 

[awake]

Ignator, your story illustrates both the need for and the frustration of permits and regulations. Why do we have to get permits? Why is it sometimes so difficult for "non-professionals" to get permission to do the work? Because there are so many examples of bad work, and the county / city is trying to prevent future problems. Sometimes that bad work was done by a "professional," and sometimes an "amateur" can do the work far better and more carefully - but how can the county know which is which? Hence the permits, and inspections, and red tape.

 

[Sprocket]

Hopsteiner,
I will take some pictures of the X,Y,Z mounting, but they were pretty easy. the only problem I found with those was there is a coolant door on the left side so I mounted both the Y and Z on the right. Lost a little travel because there is a huge old power crossfeed on the right end of the table too, but not much. I made the mount parts for the quill scale, there were no instructions, so I made it up. I needed to attach the reader to this, so made a clamp that fit around 3/4 of the way and mounted to the hole
These bolted to the front of the quill


this rail came with the scale

and I modified the angle to mount the reader on.
You make everything square and parallel, and it looks like this:



as I said, I kind of made this up ,hope it helps.

Doug

Just an added thought, probably the most difficult part of the whole job was accurately placing, drilling with a hand drill, and tapping the holes.
I think I hit some webs in the lower castings, felt like some parts were thicker than others, broke a couple of drills in the process.

 

[ignator]

Ignator, your story illustrates both the need for and the frustration of permits and regulations. Why do we have to get permits? Why is it sometimes so difficult for "non-professionals" to get permission to do the work? Because there are so many examples of bad work, and the county / city is trying to prevent future problems. Sometimes that bad work was done by a "professional," and sometimes an "amateur" can do the work far better and more carefully - but how can the county know which is which? Hence the permits, and inspections, and red tape.

If the electrical task was not connected to a major addition and putting a 2nd floor on the existing home, I would never have gotten a permit.
That said, I did attend a trade school for 2 years for Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Technology. That was back in 1974, when refrigeration technicians also did the electrical installations (in some municipalities), so part of my training was commercial and residential wiring practices. And I had a course in National Electric Code studies per 1972? book. This has been the handiest education I could have ever received in my life. As after working as a lab technician for The Trane Co. I went back and got an EE degree. Worked for Collins Radio for 29 years. I'm not an RF sort, but was pretty good at fixing EMI emissions, and susceptibility, during product conformance testing. I designed and validated the products I had cognizance.
I do feel myself qualified to do electrician work, at least at these low voltages.
The one thing I notice is fire hazards. Loose connections being the biggest cause. My house addition required the use of Arc Fault Circuit Breakers. I have not had any false triggering issues, but I understand that after the fact on new construction, they are swapped out with the old style, from trip annoyance (once the inspection was completed). But I see them as a good thing for fire protection. If some appliance is causing false trip, replace the appliance. I've never had that, but typically it's universal motors with brushes arching that are an issue. And if you search for tripping of these, I've found several articles where there was a nail shot through the wiring in the wall, and resulting in a low current arc.
The bigger irritation is the child resistant outlets, as it's a ******* addon to a design that was never intended to have little doorways to inhibit children messing with the contacts. And they make plug insertion a PITA. But it's now code to use them in residential installations. Even there, the inspector reminded me of this during the rough in inspection (note they are not required for outbuildings and garage/shops). I did argue with him about outlets adjacent to stairs, as I said they were a trip hazard, so should not be installed there, that was a dumb thought on my part, as plugging in the vacuum cleaner is now a pain, as I have to run a long cord to reach. They should be installed at the top and bottom, and halfway as long as that's less then the 12 foot code standard spacing.

To put this post back on topic about the BP round ram machine,
Hopsteiner: what makes the VFD so useful, is you can (in all I've used) have the LED display on the panel, display your spindle RPM. This is done by programing in the motor to spindle ratio in a program parameter, and having the display convert the Hz setting, using that conversion factor to display spindle RPM. I use this on my lathes, mills, and drill presses. It makes staying below 100SFM of steel with any cutter a simple math problem of computing that for the cutter diameter. I'm about to do this on my 4x6 bandsaw (replace the 1phase with a 3phase and power with the VFD), and have the display in SFM. Then I can dial in the speed of brass, aluminum or steel.
Install of a VFD is fairly easy, the only real rule is to never put a switch between the VFD and motor, hard wire this. This is because a sudden open on a motor winding can result in an induced high voltage that can damage the output transistors of the VFD. Control is done with the discrete inputs of the VFD, and done at low voltages provided by the VFD.

 

[Sprocket]

If your Bridgeport has a back gear, it may run in reverse in back gear, at least mine does. The VFD allows me to reverse motor direction with a couple of button pushes.
Doug

 

[Richard Hed]

Ignator, your story illustrates both the need for and the frustration of permits and regulations. Why do we have to get permits? Why is it sometimes so difficult for "non-professionals" to get permission to do the work? Because there are so many examples of bad work, and the county / city is trying to prevent future problems. Sometimes that bad work was done by a "professional," and sometimes an "amateur" can do the work far better and more carefully - but how can the county know which is which? Hence the permits, and inspections, and red tape.

It's true, The permitting has to pay for the inspector and who knows what else, but it really is a good thing. People who build something that others may buy or inherit are dangerous if they don't know what they are doing. However, I put in a 220V line for my lathe a couple months ago with dedicated breakers and the required metal part where the wire goes into the breaker box. It didn't cost all that much -- much less than insurance, and it was easy to install -- BECAUSE I knew what I was doing. It's not that difficult, but then I know what I am doing and I know what is required. I didn't get a permit but then, it was only one line and plug. If everyone knew everything, then we most likely would not need inspectors, but who, in the modern ages, can know how to do everything? Not many, just myself and a few others. (LOL< yeah, right!) I say all this and yet I am one of those people who REALLY hate government and governmental interference. Just remember that it is government which builds water piping, sewers, roads and electric lines. WE are the government (in the so-called democracies), we unite to build things that we ALL benefit from. None of us could build a road by ourselves nor water lines nor sewer lines nor electric lines by ourselves.

 

[ignator]

It's true, The permitting has to pay for the inspector and who knows what else, but it really is a good thing. People who build something that others may buy or inherit are dangerous if they don't know what they are doing. However, I put in a 220V line for my lathe a couple months ago with dedicated breakers and the required metal part where the wire goes into the breaker box. It didn't cost all that much -- much less than insurance, and it was easy to install -- BECAUSE I knew what I was doing. It's not that difficult, but then I know what I am doing and I know what is required. I didn't get a permit but then, it was only one line and plug. If everyone knew everything, then we most likely would not need inspectors, but who, in the modern ages, can know how to do everything? Not many, just myself and a few others. (LOL< yeah, right!) I say all this and yet I am one of those people who REALLY hate government and governmental interference. Just remember that it is government which builds water piping, sewers, roads and electric lines. WE are the government (in the so-called democracies), we unite to build things that we ALL benefit from. None of us could build a road by ourselves nor water lines nor sewer lines nor electric lines by ourselves.

I'm with you Richard, but not everyone knows how to do electrical installation. The worst thing I see, is the county (building department, and issuer of the permit) typically in my experience has inspectors that are jerks with homeowners doing any construction work. I think because they have to get off their butts and do inspection. There are so many examples of work done by licensed contractors that is subpar to extremely unsafe, but the inspector never looks at their work. But I've seen issues where the police are called when the inspector shows up, and is assaulted by an irate DIY sort that gets offended for having their shoddy work critiqued.
What I've seen here, the developers and construction trades and contractors give campaign donations (bribes) to the county and city officials, and have the codes written to make it extremely difficult for DIY. I'd rather see, if additional inspections are required because they are finding unsafe workmandship, then added fees to cover their time may be needed. I just wish they didn't have a 'big chip on their shoulder'.


Back to the Bridgeport post;

I had the ToAuto DRO delivered today. DHL was the carrier ordered it March 31, the seller didn't ship till April 11, but it's here on the 13th.
I plugged it in out in the shop to see if the 2 axis display would power up. It was dead. I started at the power plug, and the ohm meter shows an open on all three lines, hot neutral and ground. So they didn't test it with the cord thrown in the box. The cord end that plugs into the back of the machine is an EIA type test equipment plug. I took one from my bench and the display powered up. I didn't like they way the shipped the display. They put in the manual and folded the thick plastic keyboard cover, then inserted the extrusion arm that the display can be mounted cantilevered from the users selected surface. This put a kink in that plastic cover. I'll see if a hot air gun will smooth that out. That plastic is important to keep the display clean from greasy fingers.
The scales are 1 micrometer resolution. And the seller pre programed the display to show this resolution. So now to install it on the surface grinder.
This cost $275USD, shipping was included.
I attached the manual for this, reads like poorly translated quality.

 

[Poppy Ott]

I installed a 3-axis DRO from Toauto on my mill and a 2-axis on the Enco lathe a couple weeks ago. Still have not looked at the manual ( if it’s anything like the manual that came the VFD’s I have on my three lathes it probably is not worth the effort). Instead, I went to YouTube to see how to set up the DRO’s. Were you able to get a set of scales that fit without cutting? Between the two machines I had to cut four out of the five scales.

 

[ignator]

Were you able to get a set of scales that fit without cutting? Between the two machines I had to cut four out of the five scales.

I'll start install tomorrow. But I got 2, 12inch scales. My mill and two lathes have a DRO, currently. I assume install is the same. I should have gotten magnetic scales, for the grinding dust, but they wanted much more for them, and we shall see if this is a problem.

 

[Hopsteiner]

Hopsteiner,
I will take some pictures of the X,Y,Z mounting, but they were pretty easy. the only problem I found with those was there is a coolant door on the left side so I mounted both the Y and Z on the right. Lost a little travel because there is a huge old power crossfeed on the right end of the table too, but not much. I made the mount parts for the quill scale, there were no instructions, so I made it up.View attachment 124366 I needed to attach the reader to this, so made a clamp that fit around 3/4 of the way and mounted to the hole View attachment 124367 View attachment 124375
These bolted to the front of the quill
View attachment 124368 View attachment 124369 View attachment 124370

this rail came with the scale View attachment 124371 View attachment 124372View attachment 124374

and I modified the angle to mount the reader on.
You make everything square and parallel, and it looks like this:

View attachment 124376

as I said, I kind of made this up ,hope it helps.

Doug

Just an added thought, probably the most difficult part of the whole job was accurately placing, drilling with a hand drill, and tapping the holes.
I think I hit some webs in the lower castings, felt like some parts were thicker than others, broke a couple of drills in the process.

Doug, thank you very much. Looking to buy a 4 axis unit from Tpac tools at the end of the week. The pictures are great.

 

[ignator]

Doug, thank you very much. Looking to buy a 4 axis unit from Tpac tools at the end of the week. The pictures are great.

I hope that kit comes with the mounting plates or bars that mount to the machine, and then the scales to those. The ToAuto didn't even come with installation instructions. So I have to make all those parts. I know what has to be done, but the other three I've installed had all the required mounting hardware, and quality instructions. The main task is to sweep along the faces of the scale and ensure they are parallel to the machine. You're trying to prevent any rubbing of the glass scale by the reader. But it was cheap........

 

[Sprocket]

It actually came with the rails, angles, nuts and bolts, shims, pretty much everything for the x,y,z and only the mounting rail for the quill. I used the metric hardware for most of it, but got some 1/4-20 carriage head bolts where slotted parts fit together. Except for the quill, there were plenty of parts. And he said he wasn’t even going to try for the quill. “All different “
Doug

 

[Richard Hed]

I'm with you Richard, but not everyone knows how to do electrical installation. The worst thing I see, is the county (building department, and issuer of the permit) typically in my experience has inspectors that are jerks with homeowners doing any construction work. I think because they have to get off their butts and do inspection. There are so many examples of work done by licensed contractors that is subpar to extremely unsafe, but the inspector never looks at their work. But I've seen issues where the police are called when the inspector shows up, and is assaulted by an irate DIY sort that gets offended for having their shoddy work critiqued.
What I've seen here, the developers and construction trades and contractors give campaign donations (bribes) to the county and city officials, and have the codes written to make it extremely difficult for DIY. I'd rather see, if additional inspections are required because they are finding unsafe workmandship, then added fees to cover their time may be needed. I just wish they didn't have a 'big chip on their shoulder'.


Back to the Bridgeport post;

I had the ToAuto DRO delivered today. DHL was the carrier ordered it March 31, the seller didn't ship till April 11, but it's here on the 13th.
I plugged it in out in the shop to see if the 2 axis display would power up. It was dead. I started at the power plug, and the ohm meter shows an open on all three lines, hot neutral and ground. So they didn't test it with the cord thrown in the box. The cord end that plugs into the back of the machine is an EIA type test equipment plug. I took one from my bench and the display powered up. I didn't like they way the shipped the display. They put in the manual and folded the thick plastic keyboard cover, then inserted the extrusion arm that the display can be mounted cantilevered from the users selected surface. This put a kink in that plastic cover. I'll see if a hot air gun will smooth that out. That plastic is important to keep the display clean from greasy fingers.
The scales are 1 micrometer resolution. And the seller pre programed the display to show this resolution. So now to install it on the surface grinder.
This cost $275USD, shipping was included.
I attached the manual for this, reads like poorly translated quality.

Yes, that's all true--little men with too much power, or at least they thimk they have the power (much more so with police.) I could write an encyclopedia about this.

 

[L98fiero]

It's true, The permitting has to pay for the inspector and who knows what else, but it really is a good thing. People who build something that others may buy or inherit are dangerous if they don't know what they are doing.

Another example of people not knowing what they are doing, when we moved into our present home there was 43volts on the neutral, I found that out when I installed an led light fixture and wondered why it was lighting at about 10% with the switch off