Overhaul of a 9" SB model "A"

[steamer]

OK

In my last post I stated that brother found a box of stuff that went with the lathe. One of the items was another steady rest.

BARN FRESH!

I sure there is a missing mob boss in there somewhere.

I intend to demonstrate the efficacy of Simple Green to clean something like this.

The steady is resting in my downstairs bathroom sink. Here's the procedure.

The sink was filled half way with piping hot water (135F +)

I then filled the sink the rest of the way with simple green right out of the bottle.

Then! I went the kitchen and washed the dishes....cruised around HMEM and poked my nose into ebay for a while

About 1 hour all together.

 

[steamer]

OK here's what it looked like right after I put it in the solution

Notice the bubbles....its foaming as it sits there.

And here's what it looked like after an hour.

10 minutes with a brass bristle brush and all the red overspray is gone, and the factory paint is starting to come off.

NICE AND CLEAN!

1 more soak cycle like this and it will be bare iron.

Gotta love this stuff.

Dave

 

[lathohn]

Hi Dave,

Been following your "restoration". Nice work so far. :bow:

I've tried various ways of cleaning metal parts, and the "non-toxic" solvents I've tried so far are Krud Kutter and Simple Green. I've used those full strength, right out the bottle, soaking parts for a day in a 5 gallon bucket. And if I had little time, they would sit there for a week taking a bath. :

Krud Kutter works well, and evaporates relatively fast. The old junior lathe I'm working on, the paint came right off with it, along with the grease. It did not seem to remove rust in any way. One good thing I noticed it about it, is that it prevents flash rusting. If you soak a part in it, take it out and let it air dry, the solvents in it will evaporate within few minutes, and no flash rusting appears. However, if you take that clean part from a cold/unheated garage to a warm room indoors, water will condensate on it, and rust will appear on it. So as long as the part doesn't get water on it, Krud Kutter seems to be a decent flash rust preventative.

Then I got couple gallons of Simple Green. It feels a bit more soapy than Krud Kutter, but cleans amazingly well. However, after I took a part out that was soaked in Simple Green, and let it air dry, I noticed that Simple Green evaporates more slowly, and some flash rusting did appear. What surprised me though, is that if I took a part that was already cleaned in Krud Kutter, and one that had some surface rust on it, and I soaked it overnight in Simple Green, next day I could brush off the rust with a just a toothbrush. So it seems Simple Green has some kind of an acid it, that slowly removes surface rust. The surface finish left by that would be kind of a matte light/dull gray. So kind of weird. Simple Green as a rust remover. Who would have thought.

Also, I'm not entirely sure if soaking parts in these solvents for long time affects the steel in anyway. However, one word of advice, if you use any of these solvents, and you have it sitting in a bucket somewhere, put a lid on it. This stuff slowly, but surely, evaporates, and you end up breathing it. I was walking around with a headache for 3 weeks before I realized, it was Krud Kutter and/or Simple Green causing it. Hehe.

Also, I've tried EvapoRust that is sold at Autozone. That works remarkably well for rust removal. However, if you leave a part in it too long, the steel starts to discolor and turn dark gray, which is kind of weird. Some kind of acid reaction I guess. The label on the box recommends 30 minutes for light rust, and overnight for heavy rust.

I have yet to try a hot TSP solution (not the "TSP substitute"), which is supposed to be a kick ass way to clean parts. Some dude on another forum was saying he could clean a whole lathe within an hour. Even takes the paint off.

Electrolysis works pretty well to for grease/rust/paint removal, but a bit slower I guess. One website was saying it is the best way to remove rust.

South Bend bulletins recommended cleaning everything with Kerosene, but I'm not sure if it's any toxic. Hehe.

Anyways, thanks for your posts. Much appreciated.

John

 

[steamer]

Thanks for the introduction and input John. On most parts, I strip them, dry them and then paint them.

For parts that are critical or have springs ect, I soak them in Alchohol after the SG treatment. The Alchohol takes all the water off of them and makes them completely dry.

Then , I paint them.

I only use Rustoleum paint from the box stores. It flows nice and it covers well, but more importantly, it's predictable to me.

I haven't had any issues with that paint bonding on. Even without a primer.

I have noticed that SG will take some rust off. I always use it hot mixed 50/50 with water. I have also used it on aluminum with no ill effects.

I have had all kinds of problems with SW Alkyd Enamel as of late. Though not in years past. Can't explain why. See earlier portions of this thread for that saga!

I know SG will take the paint off, it has a harder time with high quality "factory" paint that the rattle can stuff though.

I'll soak the rest in it again and report.


The nice part of SG is I can put my hands in it and nothing bad happens

Dave

 

[lathohn]

Hi Dave,

I haven't decided on the type of paint to use for the lathe I'm working on. Have read bunch of threads about it, and the restoration guide sold on ebay recommends Rustoleum Alkyd Enamel, sold though Grainger and the like. The regular enamel they sell at Home Depot is probably not good enough. I think the key here is how well the paints holds up against cutting oils, solvents and the like. Also, how easily the paint chips when you drop a wrench on it, is another factor.

There are two lathes I'm working on. The first is a Junior lathe from 1929, and Krud Kutter / Simple Green took the paint right off without breaking a sweat. That proves the paint wasn't very good to begin with. The other lathe I got is from 1968 and that paint doesn't come off as easy with Krud Kutter / Simple Green. It softens the paint, but the parts has to soak for at least a couple of days to even get that far. So it seems South Bend has improved their paint choice over the years.

Some people on other forums recommended using urethane or polyurethane paints, and judging by some pictures it seems the best way to go. It's pricey though and more toxic to work with.

Sherwin-Williams sells a bunch of different metal paints:

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/cn/eng/products/categories/metalplastic/finishes/

People on other forum were recommending their Polane Plus paint as the best choice for a lathe:

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/cn/eng/oem/products/polane_plus_enamel/

I checked with Grizzly website, and ordered a quart of their "South Bend" enamel, using a South Bend Part#, and the paint they sent me was:

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/cn/eng/oem/products/kem_lustral_enamel/

So all in all, I haven't quite decided yet. Hehe.

However, I don't think Home Depot/Lowes sells Alkyd Enamel. I've looked through their stuff, and it's not well labeled. They just say it's a paint for metal, or something generic like that (it might be Acrylic Enamel which is not as good as Alkyd).

Also, I've run into Por15. They have a rust preventative paint, but they also sell a 2 part urethane paint.

http://www.por15.com/2-Part-Topcoats/products/5/

Anyways, decisions, decisions. ;D

John

 

[steamer]

Well So far John I've used the garden variety Rustoleum on a number of projects and its held up just fine.

I don't use a great deal of exotic cutting oils....usually just a mineral oil, kerosene for aluminum, and one of the biodegradable pastes for most others....it hasn't raised hell with anything yet.

I also used the Alkyd Enamel for my F.E. Reed restoration about 15 years ago. I can say their (SW's) product was better then than it is now. I took one of the original cans back to the Sherwin Williams place I bought it from and asked for the same paint but in a different color. The stuff I used all those years ago was wonderful!....this stuff was crap and would not set up even after a week of hot summer weather, would not cover or spread out. ttrikalin, another SB owner on this forum had a very similar experience with SW with his 10K and after some years is still really soft.

I've used the Urethane marine paints. Stick with the one parts and avoid the two part, their far too dangerous for this unless you have the correct spray equipment....like you can die dangerous, as the catalyst is a cyano compound.
I've spread a lot of the one part during my boat building foray. Even that was bad enough! Glad I don't need to do it again!

I have two small children at home John. My shop is at home. I won't bring those products into the house... PERIOD.
I'll stick with the old "clean it up with paint thinner and put the lid on it" Rustoleum product.....works just fine for me.
No high priced thinners, no respirators, no tyvek jammies,no thinner flashing off turning the paint into syrup. ect.
Just a paint brush.

Several people have commented that the Tractor Supply paints are real good also.
Check this thread out on the PM forum
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/hendey-14-6-tie-bar-rehab-172446/



Dave

 

[lathohn]

Yea, I've read some of the warnings about polyurethane paints. It's a definite concern. If I were to use it, it would be a brush on job, but even with that, I think it requires a forced air respirator, which I don't have. I can already imagine a headline: "A Man Killed Himself While Painting a Vintage Lathe". That might be worthy of a Darwin Award. ;D

And yea, I've looked at the Tracktor Supply paints. It is an Alkyd paint, but their color selection is kind of limited. And if I got with black, it might not matter.

Grainger seems to have a decent selection of Rustoleum paints, so I might go with that.

Anyways, thanks for your advice. After my 3 week headache experience, I have new found respect for proper ventillation, and the more I think about it, the urethane paints are probably a no go for me.

John

 

[rkepler]

I got sensitized to isocyanates when painting model helicopters some 25 years ago, still can't get even a whiff without the lungs shutting down.

When I painted my lathe in 2005 I used Sherwin Williams Kem-400. It's an alkyd enamel and it's held up very well since. I used xylene and tolulene as reducers (the latter when I painted in the cold).

 

[steamer]

I did a thread in the safety section on my experience with epoxy barrier coat. I'll never use it again...

Yesterday I got the appropriate music wire for the index lever return spring. I'll wind one either tonight or tomorrow night. I'm going to use .047 standard music wire, and make up a mandrel for the lathe to wind it.

That will leave the pivot shaft, which I also received 3 feet of TGP 0-1 in 5/16" for that application. I'll just use roll pins instad of taper pins though.

I'll see if I can get into the turret this week end, install and test/debug. I left some "meat" on the lever in a few key areas just in case I needed to ease it in.

I also received the gits oilers for the counter shaft. I was going to put in some drip feed lubricators, but setting the part up to drill and tap 1/8 npt will take an afternoon of shop time, and I'd rather get on with other things so I've nixed that as a scope creep.

Dave

 

[steamer]

OK Got the index lever shaft made up and wound a spring for it. Took about 10 trys but I'm somewhat satisfied with the last one......

Dave

 

[steamer]

Installed the gits oilers in the countershaft hanger....the shaft fits so tight, I'm having trouble getting oil in..... :big:

That'll loosen up soon enough...

Dave

 

[metalmad]

looking good Dave
I might even paint my lathe before my next project :bow:

 

[ttrikalin]

Dave, Florian, and others,

Since you mentioned oilers, this is an out of topic question. My 10K's headstock has two oilers. The one near the chuck remains always filled. The one one the left needs constant filling. Not sure where the heck the oil goes (not that it is too much but still...)

That being said, I think the spindle gets the oil it needs. Even after 30 mins of running the bearings are cool to the touch, not even warm.

Thoughts on why this happens? I distinctly remember a "return" hole for the oil that comes out of the bearings to return to the oil "gallery"/reservoirs of the headstock... could the return in the rear be clogged? Should I take the spindle apart to investigate?

When I got the lathe I serviced the spindle bearing felts and flushed the oil reservoirs. I wanna say that I checked the patency of the returns, but it's been a year since I got the lathe...

Is it within the normal to have to top one of the oilers say every 2 days of operation? Is it normal that the other oiler rarely needs some oil added?

Oh well,

take care,
tom in MA

 

[davedfsme]

Tom,

It is quite normal for the (end of the headstock opposite the chuck) to run dry faster than the spindle nose end on a 9" SB. OK, yours is a 10K, but I think they are the same in this respect (?) The thrust bearings act as an oil pump. Which do you think slings worse? The plain nut and washer outboard, or the axial ball bearing inboard? I seem to have less wear, but more oil down the inside of the HS.

Dave

 

[ttrikalin]

Tom,

It is quite normal for the (end of the headstock opposite the chuck) to run dry faster than the spindle nose end on a 9" SB. OK, yours is a 10K, but I think they are the same in this respect (?) The thrust bearings act as an oil pump. Which do you think slings worse? The plain nut and washer outboard, or the axial ball bearing inboard? I seem to have less wear, but more oil down the inside of the HS.

Dave

OK, good to know.
a 10K should be identical to the 9" in this respect.
thank you.

take care,
tom in MA

 

[steamer]

Thanks for the interest and support Pete!

Be careful....It's a slippery slope once you tear her down!

Dave

 

[steamer]

Got my 3 jaw Fuerda Chuck today

Hard reversable top jaws with master jaws and set-true. 5"

Sure is nice looking and it seems to have been finished well. It is made in China, but appears to be better than some of the junk I've seen. Shows .0008" TIR at the chuck face according to the brochure that came with it.... .0005" with the set true option....but I can set it better than half that 8)

Here's some pictures....need to come up with a back plate for it....but I have a bunch of clapped out 3 jaw's this size....I'm sure I can find a donor!

 

[steamer]

Hi,

I soaked the steady in SG for 2 hours the other night....It took some of the factory paint off and softened most of it. It is clear it will need a longer soak to take it off. The leadscrew hanger got a soak at the same time and it took two coats of paint right off! ...so it seems to depend on what paint you have. The paint of the steady was sticky after the soak, so I am reasonably sure a long soak will take it off.

I'll take some photo's this weekend ....and since I'm not working this weekend I might even get something done! :

Dave

 

[steamer]

Well, I checked the steady after a couple of days and the paint had hardened up again. A quick rub of the rougher spots and I painted it.

I then realized that I was out of SG and on my next trip to the box store I grabbed some more and put them in the cart.

OK
My bad...it's a different version of simple green! It's "lemon scented"...to which I said to myself." self...I bet this new stuff sucks"...ah well, I'll give it a whirl.

I filled a "homer" bucket with 1 gallon of the stuff straight up. I then put a real nasty banjo bracket shown in a previous post in it along with the collet rack bracket and the associated hardware...the cast iron parts of it.

Put the lid on and went to bed. Tonight some 24 hours late, I poped the lid and WOW....NO PAINT...NO GRIME!

I took some pictures so you can see the after...there was a few sheets of paint that basically pushed off, but that was it.

All I can say is wow....it works

Dave

 

[steamer]

Hi,

I started in on the apron and saddle today....the last major subs for disassembly and repair. The feed worm bearing has quite a bit of wear in it. The bronze gear doesn't look too bad, but it's so filthy its really hard to say. I've started the disassemlby. I put the saddle in the "bucket" for a good soak while I disassemble the apron. It's never been apart....and it shows. The cast iron bearing for the feed worm has about .03" radial and axial wear. NOT GOOD!

Well, I'll get her apart and figuire out a plan of action for repair....can't go back now.....GIT ER DUN!

The saddle ways looked wonderful! no scoring or obvious wear.

We'll see what happens next!

Dave