Obstacles when learning CAD

[vascon2196]

Hello everyone,

I am trying to write a research paper for my Master's degree and I am focusing teaching CAD to adult (non-traditional) students, specifically age 40 and older.

"What obstacles do adult learners age 40 and older experience when using CAD software?"

-If you had trouble first using CAD, what was the most difficult part?
-If you had difficulty transitioning from paper to CAD, why?
-Did you have trouble moving from 2D CAD to 3D CAD?
-Ever thought about taking engineering courses after 40?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you,

 

[Omnimill]

Wish I could be specific Chris but I can't. To me it seems the most unintuitive software I've ever tried to learn to use! As a point of interest, the last package I tried is DraftSight which is still on my machine. Nice looking interface but no easier to use than any of the others. Maybe CAD is just not a package you can teach yourself to use?

 

[stevehuckss396]

Well having taken drafting in 7th-11th grade it wasn't hard to move into an autocad type of drawing program. 2D drawing was easy to pick up. Moving to 3D almost killed me. The hardest part is learning the lingo. I would know what I wanted to do but didn't know what the authors of the program called it. It took me about a week to create a simple 3D box. After figuring out how to go about it, it just got easier. The second week I learned the other 95% of what I know today. The first week was horrible. It's like trying to learn another language.

 

[ShopShoe]

I learned "Mechanical Drawing" in 7th grade in the 1960s, then went other ways until I was over 40 myself, but often had to read plans, drawings, maps, surveyor info, etc. as part of my job.

When I got involved with actual CAD it was with both 2D and 3D programs from several publishers, but heavily skewed toward the AutoDesk products. I was lucky to have excellent instructors and mentors in learning.

What I found hard to get my head around at the beginning was the scaling/plotting/printing setup (Add in Model/Paper space with AutoCAD) and the way things end up on paper that were different from what I was used to in making 2D drawings all those years ago. Of course, these issues have been addressed in newer packages, but you have to get used to using dimensioning features appropriately in design and in providing dimensions in output: "Do Not Scale Drawing" is important on printed output.

I had fewer problems with the 2D/3D issue once I adopted the approach of designing in 3D to start, and this is where I start now in my home work, unless what I am doing is only something quick and dirty for an intermediate stage of something. This means that the software you use has to do this in a way that works for you: the extremely low-priced software packages I have tried will not work in my situation, so I have had to cough up the money for something I can work with. the "beginner's" problem I had with learning 3D was expecting to create the 7th-grade environment of topview/frontview/right-sideview I had learned years ago in a 2D output and having issues with getting it all to work in the software environment I was using. Once I gave up on this old approach and learned let the software work for me I started learning faster: One of my mentors told me he had the same experience. I think it is important to move to 3D as soon as possible, or even to learn 3D, then learn to use 2D output to make drawings for use in production.

I am having a great time in my shop and learning a lot of (applied) engineering here on this forum, and on other places online. If I had the funds and fewer family commitments I would be interested in signing up at my local community college for a formal series of classes.
--
Getting back to your request and questions, I have noticed that another issue involved in all of this relates to the operating system(s) in use and the lab environment where the software is taught. Not everyone is always on the same page when more complex computer issues have to be used to make the environment work. In learning the more complex CAD package features, such as Bill of Material export, or animation output to a modeling program, there is additional expectation of knowledge in EXCEL or a video editing program.

I don't mean to make this post any longer, but I can elaborate on some of this if you desire further clarification.

Sounds like More Teaching Fun,

--ShopShoe

 

[Tin Falcon]

-If you had trouble first using CAD, what was the most difficult part?
-If you had difficulty transitioning from paper to CAD, why?
-Did you have trouble moving from 2D CAD to 3D CAD?
-Ever thought about taking engineering courses after 40?

Well Chris High school for me was over 30 years ago. I learned drafting on paper in JR high and then in high school. T square and triangles and compass and dividers.
I never learned 2-d drafting beyond some very basics. I went to college late in life in my mid 30s I took engineering courses. Engineering graphics was very basic almost an overview type course some board drawing and some Autocad. The teacher was an old engineer so teaching auto cad was tough for him .
I later worked for a steel fabrication company and tryed again learning Autocad 11 on my own even staring with drawing and trying to change them no joy.
I have draft sight and have not really done much with it.

The most success I has been with alibre CAD . First I had to learn you had to pick a plane make a sketch then extrude then remove material and drill holes 3_4 is modeling not drawing. then once you have a model the computer makes the drawing. but you need to edit it in my opinion.

IMHO teaching the basics of any skill is fine and nessarar but often can be boring . One needs a vision and a goal so a good way to teach CAD is take an interesting object and draw it piece by piece. If you can intergate basic skills and concepts into a goal oriented project learning is more fun and faster.
Hope this helps.
Tin

 

[kvom]

I learned 2D cad as part of a votech certificate course in machining after retirement (age 57). The classes all used MasterCam, and we followed a step-by-step tutorial book for drawing parts. Once I'd been through the first couple of exercises I caught on straight away for when we the had to duplicate a paper drawing on the computer.

Now I used Draftsite and am able to do the same operations.

Note that I was a software programmer/designer for 30+ years, so using the computer and understanding software techniques is second nature, and probably a big advantage in using many programs, not just CAD.

I did take a drafting class in middle school 50 years ago, but that had almost no influence on CAD.

I recently got a 3D CAD program (Cubify) and have drawn/machined one simple 3D part with it. Since then I haven't had the need to make another and so haven't spent a lot of time learning it. I suspect finding some online tutorials or videos will be what I need to work through, vs. trying to figure out how to do one specific part on my own.

 

[vascon2196]

Guys...thank you so much for your input. Hopefully more responses will follow...the more the better.

I have taught "college level" CAD courses and now I teach Mechanical CAD Drafting full time at a vocational high school so I have seen almost every level of new user to experienced. Teaching younger students (students that have been raised with computers) has been the easiest. I still teach part-time college courses at night and the toughest for me is teaching CAD to older students (those who did not grow up with computers).

One particular student was taking my CAD-1 class, it is designed for people with little to no CAD experience. He was about 55 years of age and had never used a computer prior to taking my class. The challenge was not just teaching the CAD software but teaching computer basics at the same time.

It was frustrating for me because this student earned an "A" in the rest of his courses but a "D" in my class. (the other courses did not require a computer) I worked with him before and after class. He also received extra help from other instructors and class mates. After this experience I decided to do some research to see if other teachers were having this problem, and what they were doing to fix it.

I have a ton of information about adult learners and new technology but very little regarding the adult learner and CAD technology.

The information you have provided is perfect. This data will help me refine my research paper and hopefully help me to teach future adult learners more effectively.

Thanks again...and keep it coming!

 

[Henry]

I learned to do CAD for my job at the same time that I was trying to learn English... I can not tell you witch one of them has been more difficult. I guest that English.
I was 42, now I am able to use Inventor, Maya, Rhinoceros (with multiple plug ins) and a few renders, Vray, Maxwell, etc. I have learned all of these for myself.
I still having problems when I need to move the plane for work in a new angle or area of the piece, is the only think that give me some problems.

In my side I always loved computers in both sides: software and hardware and I always have loved to learn difficult thinks.

 

[Swifty]

After doing a lot of progressive press tool design using paper and pencil, the move to 2D cad was fairly quick. There was always more than one way to draw things, I used Cadkey back then and still do, although I still am a beginner when it comes to 3D. Having a good knowledge of geometry and trigonometry certainly helped a lot.

Paul.

 

[kc5ezc]

Chris: I am over 70, but have been working with computers since we set registers with switches. Hardware and most software is no problem.
CAD is another can of worms. I can't seem to get my head around it. Wish I were close enough to take your course.
John Burchett
in Byng OK

 

[gbritnell]

Hi Chris,
I worked as a metal patternmaker before retiring. For a period of time I worked on 'the board' drawing patterns and coreboxes long before CAD. When I went back to the shop a job opened up doing 3D modeling. I and my partner on the other shift were sent to school to learn this program. The first time was for 1 week, eight hours a day. I must say that with no prior 2D CAD training this new programming was really tough, mostly learning what the icons did and where they were located.
When I got back to the shop they had AutoCad Ver.12 on the computer so now that I had an introduction to 3D and icon use 2D Autocad came quite easily. Over the years I have used Computervision, Catia, MasterCam, Solidworks and a few others, in fact when I got started it was mainly surface construction and not working with solids as it is today. Once the first one was learned the others seemed to fall in place quite readily.
I have to say that this was all started when I was 45 years old. I think the biggest problem for me was the frustration of learning how to navigate the work screen and try and remember all the redundancies that are used in these programs. When I started teaching our apprentices the basics of CAD modeling I would tell them to learn it at a comfortable pace. Take one feature like 'draw a line' for example and use it until your were familiar with it then move on to the next. With no prior knowledge of CAD drawing techniques and then being inundated by this new technology would really give some fellows a hard time. I don't think 40 something should be a problem because that was when I jumped into it.

 

[bazmak]

Hi,having been in engineering for 50 yrs over half in the drawing office i was the last man standing
on the drawing board.I took a few courses in cad but could not seem to get into it
The main problem being that going once a week was not enough.The following week
i had forgotten most of what i had learned.The drawing was no problem.Memory
and lack/fear of computer skills was .I stuck out on the drawing board for a few years
before retiring.I could draw a general arrangement as quick on the board but the detailing took a lot
longer where with cad it was already done.The last couple of years i only did selected drawings
where the shopfloor could manufacture from the GA.And i could draw them faster than CAD
I would have loved to learn but my age and lack of computer skills was against me
Regards barry

 

[vascon2196]

Thank you again folks...this is the information I need for my report.

 

[kspringer80]

Chris, I have much less experience than the others who have weighed in, but have considerable experience in rolling out "technology upgrades" at three different workplaces. I started as self-taught on AutoCAD 12 in 10th grade as my drafting teacher didn't even know how to install the program.

I'm currently 18 months into an Inventor roll out at my current place of employment and we've had a WIDE range in the speed that people have made the transition the the parametric modeling. The ones that have had the most success grasped the two most important concepts (in my opinion) to making a successful transition. Modeling a part "as you would machine it" helps the new user start from the base solid and work through the different required features to get the desired output. All too often the new users try to capture all of the necessary detail in the first sketch and run into all kinds of issues with constraints. The second concept would be that of capturing the "design intent" of a part using constraints and parameters. If you want a hole centered on the part then use constraints to put it there instead of a hard dimension. Most users that struggle still have a mindset of dimensioning everything as they would for a shop print (everything off one edge, etc.) which is more often than not the most inefficient way to capture the intent of the part.

I know I'm on the other side of the discussion, but figured I'd pass along what I've seen on users trying to make this transition. Best of luck with the research!

-Kyle

 

[Wizard69]

Guys...thank you so much for your input. Hopefully more responses will follow...the more the better. I have taught "college level" CAD courses and now I teach Mechanical CAD Drafting full time at a vocational high school so I have seen almost every level of new user to experienced. Teaching younger students (students that have been raised with computers) has been the easiest.

I'm not sure being young is the answer. I might suggest you get young students that self select for this training as opposed to an older person that may get thrown into it. It is hard to say but I'd like to relate an experience I had in high school in the very early seventies.

We had a drafting course available in high school that guys would opt in for. I say guys because gals where not in the class. In any event I found that I could grasp and draw (as on paper) the assigned tasks with great speed. Of course these would be considered trivial designs today but generally I could knock out a drawing in a few minutes. That is long as I didn't need to letter anything. One day the kid next to me had issues with drawing the item we were tasked with. So we swapped velum and he lettered my drawing while I did the the drafting work on his.

What it comes down to in my mind is that some people are far more adapted than others to visualization in the mind. The kid above was generally intelligent but for some reason just couldn't model the object in his brain.

On the flip side when computers started to become affordable I had big problems with the opaque interfaces common in those days. For me a text editor was near useless if I had to memorize arcane commands. Maybe that was a motivation issue, sometimes when you are young sitting at a computer for hours to learn an arcane command set just blows. The introduction of the Mac and with it GUI interfaces was like a gift from god.

GUIs work great for many applications yet with CAD it took a long time to develop GUIs and worst most of the GUI interfaces for CAD don't really work that well. So you still have a very step learning curve. If you couple that learning curve with somebody that can't visualize the part then you have big problems.

I still teach part-time college courses at night and the toughest for me is teaching CAD to older students (those who did not grow up with computers). One particular student was taking my CAD-1 class, it is designed for people with little to no CAD experience. He was about 55 years of age and had never used a computer prior to taking my class.

That is a problem right there, if you haven't had prior computer exposure throwing somebody on a machine to learn CAD is an impossible situation in my mind. People need to have a certain level of skill with respect to computers prior to jumping into CAD training. I'm not talking using E-Mail or a web browser either here. In a nut shell I think it is a big mistake letting somebody into a CAD class of any sort without a demonstrable skill level with a computer.

The challenge was not just teaching the CAD software but teaching computer basics at the same time. It was frustrating for me because this student earned an "A" in the rest of his courses but a "D" in my class. (the other courses did not require a computer)

The course may not require a computer but it should require a certain amount of computer skills prior to sign up.

I worked with him before and after class. He also received extra help from other instructors and class mates.

I think this demonstrates that somebody was in over his head. Interestingly I think computers require some of the same visualization skills that drafting requires. At times you need to be able to visualize what is going on within a computer when you command it to do certain things. Let's face it not everybody has these skills and frankly not everybody can be taught to do any one task.

In this case though I'm not sure if it was an inherent ability the individual lacked or simply not being prepared. Some place in the mix is the issue of fear, believe it or not I've seen people that actually fear computers.

As a point of reference I work in manufacturing supporting advanced manufacturing hardware. A technician if you will. Since I've been around for awhile I've had to train and or evaluate new people. Sometimes you get people in that you know within a few days won't be able to handle the job. You can see it in their eyes at times or in the questions they ask or comments made. It is like their minds are so out of sync with the reality on front of them that it is hopeless to proceed. The best you can do is cut them loose.

After this experience I decided to do some research to see if other teachers were having this problem, and what they were doing to fix it. I have a ton of information about adult learners and new technology but very little regarding the adult learner and CAD technology. The information you have provided is perfect. This data will help me refine my research paper and hopefully help me to teach future adult learners more effectively. Thanks again...and keep it coming!

In this discussion the one thing I see as a big problem is putting somebody into a position where there is to much going on all at once. Trying to learn basic computer skills on top of CAD just seems a bit much. This should have been dealt with as a remedial issue much like people often need to take refresher math classes or even prerequisites before even registering for a program. Frankly if a person can't grasp the basic computer skills required there is little reason to register them into a course where CAD work is significant. It basically is a waste of time in my mind.

Look at it this way, some (most) people grasp the basics of computer operation fairly quickly. If they don't there are three possibilities that I can think of that will cause the problem. As noted fear is one issue, it can really inhibit people's use of a computer. The second is the inability to visualize what is going on. This is a big issue and I'm not sure how to address it, not every bodies mind works the same way. The third possibility is stupidity, which doesn't appear to be an issue here due to the success in the other course work. So it really comes down to having the right skills set prior to jumping into the course.

 

[TopEndScraper]

i bought turboCAD with the idea to draw violin plates , i was drawing them on paper , and then bought a cnc machine , wow what a learning curve , i did it in 3 months , 2nd took 1 month , 3rd 2 weeks , i never took any courses
once you learn to never drag and drop , and use the boxes on the bottom of the page to type in where you want an object , its a lot easier , set out , the use of snaps and constraints just speeds things up 10 fold , 18 months later i can draw anything from nautilus shells , violin plates ,ect , with double 3D curves ,stuff there was no hope in hell of drawing on paper with out contour plotting , even editing STL 3D meshes is easy now ( adding draft , and changing thicknesses )

so learn that there are 3 axis , and miss clicking on an object and getting the rotation instead of the center " move x y axis " , but you can slect the line for 1 axis only

the bottom boxes aren just there to show random numbers

the snaps , wow , learn the keyboard short cut too those snaps ,
learn how to use the constraints , 2 objects , click where you want them joined , and they will stay joined no matter what at those places , any re sizing , it just makes it fit
i did mechanical drawing back in the 80's so that would help ,