Navy back to Sextant

[SmithDoor]

A most unusual war story from My Dad. He was called up for WW2 when He was old enough.
Went to San Francisco and left for Guadalcanal. On a LST, 1 1/2 MPH for 3000 miles. Took 3 months. About 1 1/2 months into the trip a new model of LST passed Them up traveling 3 MPH. It left later and got there about a month ahead of Them. On the way there Japan surrendered. Fighting was over and clean up under way when He got there. They turned around and came right back. He was sent home with no participation in the fighting. The family always made fun of Him, but as far as I am concerned,He went and did was He was told to do. Some one had to be first, Somebody had to be last.
As an aside a Uncle chased Rommel around, then Parachuted into Anzio, but I have no stories from Him.

I think most Uncle's volunteered.
One cousin and father passed the psychical.
His cousin was on train flight and chash less 100 miles from me. My father was get ship to go th battle of bulge. At gate your paper had error and had to stay. By fix the problem the war was over.
Bothers was lucky they go to Vetenum. My middle bother check the health care he was wonded 3 weeks later.
Oldest bother only had few holes in his airplane after 3 years.

I was unlucky it end by time correct age.

Dave

 

[SmithDoor]

Its all coming back now.
My dad was a big ham radio operator back in the 60's, and I recall him tuning into WWV, but I had not heard that reference for a very long time.
Ham radio chat use to be a big deal

Yes, if you are on land and your observations are correct and your time is correct and your charts are accurate and you have a good instruments you should be dead on. However, the whole purpose of that instrument is to let you know where you are when there are no landmarks available to the naked eye. But the limited knowledge I have on this subject is that you must be aware of the errors that can occur in your measurements and reference points. Accuracy is a matter of what care you put into those measurements and navigation techniques you have available to you. But you really do not appreciate these techniques until you have been truly lost. When the sky is the same color of the ground, the terra

MCostello. Hope your Uncle survived Anzio? Too many didn't. Although my Dad was at Anzio, off-shore, the ship shelled land targets and kept air defence over the landing fleet. So he survived it all. Otherwise I wouldn't be here to tell you about it.
No problem with anyone who spent 3 months crossing the Pacific. That's what your Dad was detailed-off to do. Deliver his craft. And some didn't make that trip successfully... The hazards of war. Glad he made it and you are able to tell us about it!
Thanks
K2

in is the same and you find footprints in the snow that are yours. And add to the fact you have no survival gear with you. I would have been very happy to know where I was with in a mile or so. So accuracy is relative. You need to know where you are so you can move to where you want to be. I am now the proud owner of about five compasses and one plastic sextant for use in a lifeboat!

I wonder how most can hand hold the sextant to 20 seconds of the horizon and make adjustments.

Everything else is easy to see.

I have told by a few aircraft navigator can get within 25 miles or 2.76 minutes.
This was done handed held * A-10A Sextant

 

[Steamchick]

With the Navy in the early 70's we headed across the North sea (A small splash - 350 Nmiles, compared to the Atlantic, 3500Nmiles.), The Navigator headed deliberately for a point of land 40 Nmiles North of where we were supposed to make port, so we knew to turn South and sail along the coast for up to 80 Nmiles (If all the errors compounded to the worst case!) when we made land-fall. Easy! But we ended up only 25 Nmiles North of our target port. = 15 Nmiles South of where we thought we were... He thought that was excellent! And we had a 3 point radio navigation system by Decca... As trainees we had to sail the ship with the Decca Navigator turned OFF. ( it was accurate to within less than 5 miles, but we were learning about "real" Navigation).
I think the German bombers did well to Bomb my Mother and Grandmother 6 miles from the target docks, and only 2 miles from the target Aluminium works... when it was a clear night and foggy at sea/ground level hiding all the land-marks. - No wonder "blanket bombing" became the fashion.... "Bomb London - You can't miss it, it is so big."
K2

 

[ajoeiam]

Stories are for telling... and sharing. Brought up pre-tv, all we had was the radio (stories were the "good stuff " for kids!). Most books and cinema films are simply stories.
There are now so few WW2 Veterans alive, their stories should still be remembered, and re-told. Like all history. But personal stories are about real people, who they were, how they lived, what they did. We should all record our stories for our children, and theirs, down the generations.
Just as we pass on our technical knowledge on this site.
K2

Wikipedia lists some 21 still with us - - - dunno exactly how current it is - - - the youngest is 97 and the oldest is 105 - - - I remember reading a bulletin a few years ago about the last surviving member here dying. For what its worth - - - enough of their children aren't around either!
Had an instructor (machining) whose father picked up a neat project from a school in the process of sweeping through Germany.

 

[Steamchick]

The last I knew was my Mother - died a year ago, nearly 102...
Her Father's story:
https://goodreads.com/book/show/24702141-a-nice-quiet-life
Covers WW1 and WW2.
His life prompted my interest in "ordinary peoples' lives" during such extreme times. He was just an ordinary bloke, wanting "a nice quiet life"...
K2

 

[ChazzC]

With the Navy in the early 70's we headed across the North sea (A small splash - 350 Nmiles, compared to the Atlantic, 3500Nmiles.), The Navigator headed deliberately for a point of land 40 Nmiles North of where we were supposed to make port, so we knew to turn South and sail along the coast for up to 80 Nmiles (If all the errors compounded to the worst case!) when we made land-fall. Easy! But we ended up only 25 Nmiles North of our target port. = 15 Nmiles South of where we thought we were... He thought that was excellent! And we had a 3 point radio navigation system by Decca... As trainees we had to sail the ship with the Decca Navigator turned OFF. ( it was accurate to within less than 5 miles, but we were learning about "real" Navigation).
I think the German bombers did well to Bomb my Mother and Grandmother 6 miles from the target docks, and only 2 miles from the target Aluminium works... when it was a clear night and foggy at sea/ground level hiding all the land-marks. - No wonder "blanket bombing" became the fashion.... "Bomb London - You can't miss it, it is so big."
K2

Yes, DECCA. I identified an area in the "Atlantic Operating Area" (not the Bermuda Triangle, but near-ish) where DECCA didn't work. NAVSEA didn't believe me, but I pushed so we took a tech (reluctant civilian who didn't believe me and also didn't like being on a ship) with us on one trip: as predicted, we stopped being able to get a reliable fix on schedule (and finally the Captain & tech believed me). Whenever we were cruising in this area, I would write this in the night orders: "At approximately 0230, the Duty Quartermaster will inform yo that he can not get a fix - DO NOT TELL HIM TO NOTIFY THE NAVIGATOR, this is a know issue and we will use Dead Reckoning until we can get an electronic fix." The Captain would approve these orders, but once I Got a call in the middle of the night from the Quartermaster, who apologized saying that "The Officer of the Deck insisted that I come to the Bridge;" when I entered Bridge I almost collided with the OOD, who profusely apologized because he had finally read the Night Orders.

 

[SmithDoor]

The last I knew was my Mother - died a year ago, nearly 102...
Her Father's story:
https://goodreads.com/book/show/24702141-a-nice-quiet-life
Covers WW1 and WW2.
His life prompted my interest in "ordinary peoples' lives" during such extreme times. He was just an ordinary bloke, wanting "a nice quiet life"...
K2

My father a good friend how was a Merchant Seaman in boiler room.
When war end he start business making chemicals for boilers. He had business did till he retired. We built his special building he need . We have lunch about ever month and amost never talk about the being a Merchant Seaman. He finally die from colan cancer.

It very important part of war Very dangerous too. The other ships could stop if ship went down. A few would spend over 100 days in a lifeboat living on rain water.

Thank-you for sharing.
Dave

 

[SmithDoor]

Yes, DECCA. I identified an area in the "Atlantic Operating Area" (not the Bermuda Triangle, but near-ish) where DECCA didn't work. NAVSEA didn't believe me, but I pushed so we took a tech (reluctant civilian who didn't believe me and also didn't like being on a ship) with us on one trip: as predicted, we stopped being able to get a reliable fix on schedule (and finally the Captain & tech believed me). Whenever we were cruising in this area, I would write this in the night orders: "At approximately 0230, the Duty Quartermaster will inform yo that he can not get a fix - DO NOT TELL HIM TO NOTIFY THE NAVIGATOR, this is a know issue and we will use Dead Reckoning until we can get an electronic fix." The Captain would approve these orders, but once I Got a call in the middle of the night from the Quartermaster, who apologized saying that "The Officer of the Deck insisted that I come to the Bridge;" when I entered Bridge I almost collided with the OOD, who profusely apologized because he had finally read the Night Orders.

Dead Reckoning is used a lot aviation.
The E6B works great for this as also helps calculate the cross wind and ground speed. I have use the E6B a lot in the pass.
I told Dead Reckoning on a ship is very good for on the ocean.
On aircraft it works very good. It changing cross winds gives problem.

**********

The Bermuda Triangle has problems with magnetic compass I do not know gyro compass. A lot of Pilots will use the magnetic compass. There magnetic compass does work in parts of the Bermuda Triangle or IFR conditions.
FLIGHT instructors should paper over magnetic compass for some training.
The most famous was JFK Jr. he flew into IFR conditions and may have panic and use the magnetic compass to keep wings leave. The gyro compass works in a trun. The have name for this happening.

Dave

 

[ChazzC]

Dead Reckoning is used a lot aviation.
The E6B works great for this as also helps calculate the cross wind and ground speed. I have use the E6B a lot in the pass.
I told Dead Reckoning on a ship is very good for on the ocean.
On aircraft it works very good. It changing cross winds gives problem.

**********

The Bermuda Triangle has problems with magnetic compass I do not know gyro compass. A lot of Pilots will use the magnetic compass. There magnetic compass does work in parts of the Bermuda Triangle or IFR conditions.
FLIGHT instructors should paper over magnetic compass for some training.
The most famous was JFK Jr. he flew into IFR conditions and may have panic and use the magnetic compass to keep wings leave. The gyro compass works in a trun. The have name for this happening.

Dave

Ocean currents & winds impact DR on ships; however, combined with periodic celestial navigation locations DR can be relatively accurate.

 

[SmithDoor]

Ocean currents & winds impact DR on ships; however, combined with periodic celestial navigation locations DR can be relatively accurate.

It some may need to calculate
Per internet Ocean currents is 50 cm per second or 1.12 mph it something you need to calculate it close to the coast.
Aircraft in WW2 found wind speed at 300 mph. Most do not fly that high. If remember right Aircraft can find cross winds most time 50 mph. If there is storm 150 mph hurricane 300 mphmost aircraft avoid this as tear apart most aircraft.
I know only little of Ocean going ships.

Dave

 

[ChazzC]

It some may need to calculate
Per internet Ocean currents is 50 cm per second or 1.12 mph it something you need to calculate it close to the coast.
Aircraft in WW2 found wind speed at 300 mph. Most do not fly that high. If remember right Aircraft can find cross winds most time 50 mph. If there is storm 150 mph hurricane 300 mphmost aircraft avoid this as tear apart most aircraft.
I know only little of Ocean going ships.

Dave

Need to be cautious about numbers from the internet; in this case, ocean currents vary not only due to storms, but also location, day vs. night, open seas vs. closer to land, etc. That's why it is important to have some method other than Dead Reckoning to determine position from time to time.

Of course, there are also birds, floating debris and other methods used by our ancestors. The Vikings used the shadow cast by the high prow of the ship along the top of the keel to help them plan their trips back to someplace they had already been.

 

[SmithDoor]

Need to be cautious about numbers from the internet; in this case, ocean currents vary not only due to storms, but also location, day vs. night, open seas vs. closer to land, etc. That's why it is important to have some method other than Dead Reckoning to determine position from time to time.

Of course, there are also birds, floating debris and other methods used by our ancestors. The Vikings used the shadow cast by the high prow of the ship along the top of the keel to help them plan their trips back to someplace they had already been.

I agree

We lucky because we so many ways of finding our location. But if electronics go down now back to old way.
I think more surprising how far off the old way was.
The GPS can get within feet today. I ww2 it was about 1½miles with good navigation skills.
In desert it was lessthan a mile. Aviation different from just few mills to 25 miles .

Dead reckoning is not found in driving a car. Just Sailing and Avation and depending on conditions and navigator

I still wonder how some one hand holding a sextant within 20 seconds?.

Dave

 

[around]

One technique that we used was to take a series of observations of each body. Except at meridian passage, the rate of change in the angle of the observed body is constant (over a short period of time) and can be easily calculated. The sights are plotted on a graph and a best fit line (using the calculated slope) was faired through the observed angles. Taking observations of 5-6 bodies, averaging the sights and then plotting the resultant lines of position (LOP) while adjusting for the movement of the ship during the observation period would give you a very small "cocked hat" or error basket. A bit tedious if using the old printed tables but quite quick if using navigation software on a PC.

CO's would regularly require the junior Bridge Watchkeepers to do celestial nav for entire transits (Atlantic/Pacific) with their results being plotted against our actual GPS track. When I was training/assessing ship's officers and crews in the early 2000's, I would regularly "kill" the GPS feeds on the ship being worked up and drive them to celestial/DR navigation. All of our modern combat systems need frequent navigation updates so it was a "teachable moment" when this had to be done manually.

During my time in the navy (1980's through 2010's), I watched us progress from OMEGA, LORAN and DECCA through to TRANSIT and finally INS with GPS coupled to electronic charting systems on the Bridge/Ops room. We still carried paper charts and sextants because you can still use a paper chart that has a bullet hole through it. Not so much a piece of electronics.

Cheers,

Adrian

 

[Richard Hed]

The last I knew was my Mother - died a year ago, nearly 102...
Her Father's story:
https://goodreads.com/book/show/24702141-a-nice-quiet-life
Covers WW1 and WW2.
His life prompted my interest in "ordinary peoples' lives" during such extreme times. He was just an ordinary bloke, wanting "a nice quiet life"...
K2

Hey, I just chekt that out. In the link you sent, the author was "Burlinson" but I lookt it up in Alibris Books and it was Robert Chicken. What's the deal, I know your last name is Chicken but you said this was your mother's father which should make it Burlinson.

 

[SmithDoor]

Need to be cautious about numbers from the internet; in this case, ocean currents vary not only due to storms, but also location, day vs. night, open seas vs. closer to land, etc. That's why it is important to have some method other than Dead Reckoning to determine position from time to time.

Of course, there are also birds, floating debris and other methods used by our ancestors. The Vikings used the shadow cast by the high prow of the ship along the top of the keel to help them plan their trips back to someplace they had already been.

I found a lot know maginic north and true north.

It real easy to find maginic north vs true north with transit at night

This works on a cellphone no need for night time

https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/calculators/mobileDeclination.shtml
Dave

 

[SmithDoor]

One technique that we used was to take a series of observations of each body. Except at meridian passage, the rate of change in the angle of the observed body is constant (over a short period of time) and can be easily calculated. The sights are plotted on a graph and a best fit line (using the calculated slope) was faired through the observed angles. Taking observations of 5-6 bodies, averaging the sights and then plotting the resultant lines of position (LOP) while adjusting for the movement of the ship during the observation period would give you a very small "cocked hat" or error basket. A bit tedious if using the old printed tables but quite quick if using navigation software on a PC.

CO's would regularly require the junior Bridge Watchkeepers to do celestial nav for entire transits (Atlantic/Pacific) with their results being plotted against our actual GPS track. When I was training/assessing ship's officers and crews in the early 2000's, I would regularly "kill" the GPS feeds on the ship being worked up and drive them to celestial/DR navigation. All of our modern combat systems need frequent navigation updates so it was a "teachable moment" when this had to be done manually.

During my time in the navy (1980's through 2010's), I watched us progress from OMEGA, LORAN and DECCA through to TRANSIT and finally INS with GPS coupled to electronic charting systems on the Bridge/Ops room. We still carried paper charts and sextants because you can still use a paper chart that has a bullet hole through it. Not so much a piece of electronics.

Cheers,

Adrian

Good point on bullet holes.
I thinking more satellite killers.
I know some radio direction finders do very well. On a ship that could problem because of distance.

You find your location with watch set to. Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) (also is 0 degrees longitude time) and compass using simple sundial. If forgot the sextant or it got shot.


Dave

 

[ChazzC]

One technique that we used was to take a series of observations of each body. Except at meridian passage, the rate of change in the angle of the observed body is constant (over a short period of time) and can be easily calculated. The sights are plotted on a graph and a best fit line (using the calculated slope) was faired through the observed angles. Taking observations of 5-6 bodies, averaging the sights and then plotting the resultant lines of position (LOP) while adjusting for the movement of the ship during the observation period would give you a very small "cocked hat" or error basket. A bit tedious if using the old printed tables but quite quick if using navigation software on a PC.

Now that you mention it, I do recall this technique from when I learned Celestial Navigation in one of NROTC classes (in the early 70's)

CO's would regularly require the junior Bridge Watchkeepers to do celestial nav for entire transits (Atlantic/Pacific) with their results being plotted against our actual GPS track. When I was training/assessing ship's officers and crews in the early 2000's, I would regularly "kill" the GPS feeds on the ship being worked up and drive them to celestial/DR navigation. All of our modern combat systems need frequent navigation updates so it was a "teachable moment" when this had to be done manually.

We were only required to complete the "Day's Work" as part of our SWO Qualification, which included all line officers, including those in Engineering roles since they would eventually send bridge watches.

During my time in the navy (1980's through 2010's), I watched us progress from OMEGA, LORAN and DECCA through to TRANSIT and finally INS with GPS coupled to electronic charting systems on the Bridge/Ops room. We still carried paper charts and sextants because you can still use a paper chart that has a bullet hole through it. Not so much a piece of electronics.

Cheers,

Adrian

While I had a lot of adventures during my brief career, most of them would only be of interest to fellow sailors. However, two instances may be of general interest, so hang on folks:

• The ship I served on as an officer was USS Santa Barbara (AE-28), an Ammunition Supply Ship, with a single screw (as a midshipman I served on USS Intrepid (CVS-11), 4 shafts and USS California (CGN-36), 2 shafts). Now it is a "well known fact" that ships with a single shaft back to port due to the unbalanced propeller rotation (on ships with even numbers of shafts the shafts turn in opposite directions and the rotation is balanced); this is an important characteristic to remember when you are maneuvering in close quarters so you don't "make contact" with something unintentionally. We were in the Atlantic Operating Area, within the Bermuda Triangle and were running training drills, including an "Emergency Crash Back" where you go from full speed ahead to back full (normally you stop first, coast a little and then back up); the purpose of this drill is to confirm that everything will work as designed in an emergency. Well, things went as planned with one exception: instead of backing to port, we backed to starboard! Bermuda Triangle???


• This one is just an interesting evolution, a confirmation of rumors plus a page from history. As an Ammunition Ship, our task was to supply other ships with various weaponry. Many times we would go out to meet with ships returning from deployment to offload those munitions associated with what their assignments were, rearrange the pallets of munitions and then transfer them to outbound ships. We also would do similar tasks in support of special activities. On one such occasion, we took to sea to offload Sea Trial munitions from USS Eisenhower (CVN-69), and load a special selection of munitions for a demonstration of a Nuclear Navy Task Force to be observed by President Carter. The President had traveled to the Eisenhower on Marine One from Savannah, GA, stayed overnight and would fly back to Savannah after the exercises. Since we would need to offload leftover demonstration munitions from the task force, we were instructed to take station 45 miles from Savannah in the event that the exercise ran late and Marine One needed to refuel (Marine One was not allowed to carry the President more than 50 continuous miles over water without refueling, and the exercise area was further out to sea than that). With nothing to do for a day, I proposed to the Captain that we "Swing Ship" to calibrate the magnetic compass, an activity that is periodically required and consists of traveling along the major and minor points of the compass, noting deviations and then shifting the "Navigator's Balls", "Flinders Bar" and Binnacle Magnets to compensate for the mass of steel that makes up the ship's structure, guns, etc. We accomplished boring task and then waited to be called upon to greet the President. Near the appointed hour we received a message than our Help Deck would not be required. Radar then picked up two contacts (the Eisenhower with USS Virginia (CGN-38) escorting her) rapidly approaching our vicinity, and within sight a helicopter took and headed towards Savannah – no autograph for Charlie. Oh, the rumors? Ships in the Nuclear Fleet have maximum speeds of 30+ kts (knots = 55+ k/hr); I knew that the California could do 35 kts since I had experienced it first hand, making tight racetrack turns nears Andros Island several years earlier – very exciting. I can confirm thet both the Virginia and Eisenhour can travel at higher speeds than that when necessary, and it is indeed a sight to behold.


OK, Sea Stories over.

 

[SmithDoor]

Now that you mention it, I do recall this technique from when I learned Celestial Navigation in one of NROTC classes (in the early 70's)


We were only required to complete the "Day's Work" as part of our SWO Qualification, which included all line officers, including those in Engineering roles since they would eventually send bridge watches.


While I had a lot of adventures during my brief career, most of them would only be of interest to fellow sailors. However, two instances may be of general interest, so hang on folks:

• The ship I served on as an officer was USS Santa Barbara (AE-28), an Ammunition Supply Ship, with a single screw (as a midshipman I served on USS Intrepid (CVS-11), 4 shafts and USS California (CGN-36), 2 shafts). Now it is a "well known fact" that ships with a single shaft back to port due to the unbalanced propeller rotation (on ships with even numbers of shafts the shafts turn in opposite directions and the rotation is balanced); this is an important characteristic to remember when you are maneuvering in close quarters so you don't "make contact" with something unintentionally. We were in the Atlantic Operating Area, within the Bermuda Triangle and were running training drills, including an "Emergency Crash Back" where you go from full speed ahead to back full (normally you stop first, coast a little and then back up); the purpose of this drill is to confirm that everything will work as designed in an emergency. Well, things went as planned with one exception: instead of backing to port, we backed to starboard! Bermuda Triangle???


• This one is just an interesting evolution, a confirmation of rumors plus a page from history. As an Ammunition Ship, our task was to supply other ships with various weaponry. Many times we would go out to meet with ships returning from deployment to offload those munitions associated with what their assignments were, rearrange the pallets of munitions and then transfer them to outbound ships. We also would do similar tasks in support of special activities. On one such occasion, we took to sea to offload Sea Trial munitions from USS Eisenhower (CVN-69), and load a special selection of munitions for a demonstration of a Nuclear Navy Task Force to be observed by President Carter. The President had traveled to the Eisenhower on Marine One from Savannah, GA, stayed overnight and would fly back to Savannah after the exercises. Since we would need to offload leftover demonstration munitions from the task force, we were instructed to take station 45 miles from Savannah in the event that the exercise ran late and Marine One needed to refuel (Marine One was not allowed to carry the President more than 50 continuous miles over water without refueling, and the exercise area was further out to sea than that). With nothing to do for a day, I proposed to the Captain that we "Swing Ship" to calibrate the magnetic compass, an activity that is periodically required and consists of traveling along the major and minor points of the compass, noting deviations and then shifting the "Navigator's Balls", "Flinders Bar" and Binnacle Magnets to compensate for the mass of steel that makes up the ship's structure, guns, etc. We accomplished boring task and then waited to be called upon to greet the President. Near the appointed hour we received a message than our Help Deck would not be required. Radar then picked up two contacts (the Eisenhower with USS Virginia (CGN-38) escorting her) rapidly approaching our vicinity, and within sight a helicopter took and headed towards Savannah – no autograph for Charlie. Oh, the rumors? Ships in the Nuclear Fleet have maximum speeds of 30+ kts (knots = 55+ k/hr); I knew that the California could do 35 kts since I had experienced it first hand, making tight racetrack turns nears Andros Island several years earlier – very exciting. I can confirm thet both the Virginia and Eisenhour can travel at higher speeds than that when necessary, and it is indeed a sight to behold.


OK, Sea Stories over.

That is Knots?
35 knots is 40¼ mph

Dave