Make & break wont run

[a41capt]

Congratulations Pat, nice engine!

John W

 

[JohnBDownunder]

Interestingly, I could not see the first video just hear the sound. The YouTube link worked a treat tho. Jolly good,
John B

 

[Patrick Janson]

Thanks for the happy responses.

 

[rickhann]

Don't feel bad Pat. Damn few people are aware that there is a difference, and information on make and break engines is quite hard to come by. You're right, Make and Break engines controlled the engine speed through Making and Breaking the ignition circuit of the engine. Hit and Miss engines controlled engine speed through the use of counterweights on a governor operating a linkage to hold the exhaust valve open during the "miss" cycles. I just did a search for "Make and Break" engines, and there isn't much information available-- and some of what is available describes hit and miss engines, not make and break engines. Here is a link to a make and break engine running a small boat, but very little in the way of technical information.---Brian

Brian, are you saying that a hit and miss engine cannot have a make and break ignition system? If so, then I must disagree. Many hit and miss engines had make and break (igniters) that were speed controlled by governors. I grew up on a farm that had just such an engine (Galloway). it was a hit and miss with an igniter that was controlled by a counterweight governor. The points were in the combustion chamber and would only open (spark) when the governor would allow them to. Google "igniter" for more information.
Rick

 

[Brian Rupnow]

No Rickhann--What I am saying is that they are two distinctly different kind of engines. Agreed, there were cross overs between the two types of engine, hybrids, so to speak. "Make and Break" style engines were popular with fishing boats on the east coast, and have a distinctly different exhaust sound from a hit and miss engine. "Hit and Miss" style engines were popular on inland farms away from the seacoasts. Listen to the engine in the video link I posted. You will hear the very different sound that a "make and break" engine had, far different from that of a hit and miss.

 

[Patrick Janson]

Hi guys,
I have to stick my nose in here and say a few things. Brian, I respect your viewpoint but I must disagree. Both hit n miss engines and make n break engines are exactly the same type of engine. They both have the same parts and do the same thing. They are not different at all. They use different ways to control speed. Thats all. Make n break uses the ignition system and hit n miss uses aspiration.
The whole idea with hit n miss engines was that while the exhaust valve was kept open, the engine would breathe fresh air while not making compression. They would freewheel several strokes. This helped greatly in keeping the engine cool. Power demands were not critical and huge flywheels kept irrigation pumps turning no problem. (example) They would run for weeks at at time as long as you kept fueling and oiling.
Make n break engines were usually used where more constant power was demanded, such as boats where turning a prop was very constant. Or perhaps in a shop, powering equipment. (example) Early gas tractors used both types to provide the power needed. Much smaller flywheels were needed as the power strokes were more often.
Before I posted my engine video which I mistakenly called a make n break, I ran the engine with the flyweights wired down. I ran the engine with no speed control at all. The carb has no throttle, the engine ran free. I knew that I could control speed with the “off” switch. Yet, it ran quite nicely at about 2000 rpm constant. (guess) What would that engine be called? Can’t call it a make n break…. can’t call it a hit n miss….. it’s the same engine… but what is it? Now, it’s called a hit n miss because I cut the wire holding down the flyweights.
WW1 aircraft used an ignition cutoff system to control the speed on their rotary engines. It’s the same stuff…. control speed. (just an example)
So, thats my point. It’s all the same. They’re not different types of engines… they’re just used differently and adjusted or modified to perform the task needed. The exhaust sound is a result of the application, and the positioning and size of the pipe, and the amount of air exiting. Thats why old open engines, tractors, boats and such used a pipe sticking straight up with a rain flapper cap. Exhaust sound means nothing, Unless you’re parked next to my GTO.

Thanks, Pat

 

[Brian Rupnow]

Okay--Not going to argue. To build any type of engine and actually have it run is a great accomplishment.---Brian

 

[Patrick Janson]

Thanks Brian....

Pat

 

[Aerostar55]

Hello,
I am a retired auto technician and have worked for 40 years in the auto industry, most recently as a Master Toyota Technician. I know engines and what makes them tick. That being said…..
I recently built a freelance 1 cyl. make and break engine. It is a 1” bore and 1” stroke. I purchased the TIM-6 ignition system. I decided to use this because it eliminated points and condenser and for size reasons, that made sense. I assembled the electronics and tested everything as per the instructions, and all is good. The system was installed onto the engine with the magnet on the cam gear and carefully aligned with the hall sensor which is mounted to a pivoting arm so as to be able to adjust the timing.
To make a long story short…. I can’t make this engine even pop. I’ve tried 3 different fuels, 2 different spark plugs, made 2 different versions of carburetors, and now has a carb off a model airplane engine. I tried priming through the spark plug hole and even tried starting fluid “ether” to no avail.
With the spark plug removed and grounded it shows a good spark. I mounted the LED timing indicator so as to be visible and the timing is perfect. Compression is good and its getting fuel. If I got even a hint of a “trying to fire” or a pop on ignition I would try to isolate a problem. BUT… I can’t get it to show any signs of ignition.
Is there a possibility of a bad coil? I tested the primary side to about 6 ohms and the secondary side is around 5K ohms.
Could it not be firing under compression? There’s no way to test that. The TIM-6 seems ok. I’m stumped.

I thought I’d write the forum to see if you could shed some light…. I need some help.
See the photo of my engine.

Thanks,
Pat Janson
[email protected]

View attachment 143534

Try turning the lights down low and attempting to start it - maybe the plug wire is arcing- on a nearby part of the engine

 

[Billp66]

Don't feel bad Pat. Damn few people are aware that there is a difference, and information on make and break engines is quite hard to come by. You're right, Make and Break engines controlled the engine speed through Making and Breaking the ignition circuit of the engine. Hit and Miss engines controlled engine speed through the use of counterweights on a governor operating a linkage to hold the exhaust valve open during the "miss" cycles. I just did a search for "Make and Break" engines, and there isn't much information available-- and some of what is available describes hit and miss engines, not make and break engines. Here is a link to a make and break engine running a small boat, but very little in the way of technical information.---Brian

Brian,
I am very new to model engines but have been around Hit and Miss engines since I was a baby!! Almost 60 years. I have many. A hit and miss is just that. It hits or misses. That boat engine is a 2 cycle, I’m not positive but it appears to regulate its speed just like a Maytag washer 2 cycle. By stopping the spark as holding the exhaust open isn’t an option.
A “ Make and break “ ignition is just that, the circuit is open and it closes “ make” then opens. A “ low tension” coil energizes and when it “ breaks” the magnetic field collapses causing a rush of current ( not enough to fire a spark plug ) that will make a small low tension ( but high amperage ) spark across an “ ignitor” that is what that boat engine has an ignitor. It is a make and break. Some “ make and break “ were throttle controlled which fired every TDC but wasted the spark on the exhaust. Others were hit and miss which only fired on the compression stroke when the Governor allowed. Low tension ignitors were quite rare after the early 20’s when the Wico high tension ( spark plug ) ignition was available. Much more reliable and ran better at higher speeds. A Maytag uses centrifugal weights to open the points. Coasting but still sucking gas that is why they smoke so much!!’
I have a few!!!

 

[wce4]

Thanks Brian....

Pat

Hit and Miss "In the Atlantic provinces of Canada, primarily Newfoundland, these engines were colloquially known as "Make-and-Break" engines."
https://www.mun.ca/ich/search-ich-collections/make-and-break-engines/
https://academic-accelerator.com/encyclopedia/hit-and-miss-engine

 

[bluejets]

I need some help.

Possible you can show some details on the ignition system "you built"......include any circuit diagram "you used" and what power supply "you used>
Also details on the parts used.

 

[Billp66]

Don't feel bad Pat. Damn few people are aware that there is a difference, and information on make and break engines is quite hard to come by. You're right, Make and Break engines controlled the engine speed through Making and Breaking the ignition circuit of the engine. Hit and Miss engines controlled engine speed through the use of counterweights on a governor operating a linkage to hold the exhaust valve open during the "miss" cycles. I just did a search for "Make and Break" engines, and there isn't much information available-- and some of what is available describes hit and miss engines, not make and break engines. Here is a link to a make and break engine running a small boat, but very little in the way of technical information.---Brian

If you search for 2 cycle marine engines you might find a bit more information. They may be called “make and break” on the sea coast ( kind of have their own language there anyway ) but it is a 2 cycle hit and miss. The speed is regulated basically the same way other 2 cycle hit and miss like the Maytag single often ( but that is another error that many people will completely wrongly argue) called the model 92. Although the ignition is different both use flyweights ( only way used before electronics) the Engine you are referring to actually has a “ make and break” ignition on it. Make and break only technically can refer to the ignition system. An early auto system that is too complicated to describe here and the engine system. The single cyl engine system uses a low tension coil and ignitior. Clearly seen on that engine. The man is rocking it back in forth to suck fuel into the crankcase to help start it. With an ignitor and low tension coil the ignitor contact points closers very briefly “ make” then snap open “ break” causing a spark. This system was used on 2 cycles, hit and miss 4 cycles AND throttle controlled 4 cycles. After 1923 hardly were ever seen on 4 cycles because Wico and other spark plug ignitions were much more reliable. http://www.old-engine.com/magign.htm

Don't feel bad Pat. Damn few people are aware that there is a difference, and information on make and break engines is quite hard to come by. You're right, Make and Break engines controlled the engine speed through Making and Breaking the ignition circuit of the engine. Hit and Miss engines controlled engine speed through the use of counterweights on a governor operating a linkage to hold the exhaust valve open during the "miss" cycles. I just did a search for "Make and Break" engines, and there isn't much information available-- and some of what is available describes hit and miss engines, not make and break engines. Here is a link to a make and break engine running a small boat, but very little in the way of technical information.---Brian
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