Linux "Q4OS"

[goldstar31]

Ken, the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions

I've just got my son bribed with a spade, a garden fork and a Spanish adze in return for booking me a delivery slot again with the local grocery supermarket. Again, he simply filled in my census return.
So my only real recourse to a computer is the ANNUALLY to do my Tax Return . So for 364 days, I do nothing and simply await each month to get my bank statements- and literally read the finishing figures to the commencing figures and see if they equal or increase! It doesn't really bother me- because I balance my accounts on malt whisky and flowers and chocolates for my neighbour who brings me a wonderful Sunday lunch at the stroke of 4PM.
I've been doing this for the last 36 years- more or less. For 31 years, my much lamented wife used to join me in such exhausting efforts.

True, I'm in lockdown - but theoretically, my bank balances should in crease. The exciting news today is a walrus off the Welsh coast and that there is a set of Roman stone anchors found at North Hylton which is probably a stone's throw the Ken Boiler Maker factory.

Oh, and I put a cheap wood cutting bandsaw together. I MIGHT cut some bits for my workshop tomorrow--- or I might not.
N

 

[trlvn]

Some machines already run a Linux OS (Operating System) under the hood ! Apple mac's for instance

Um, no. The Mac operating system is derived from NextStep which was derived from BSD. All of these, including Linux, have a common lineage to the original Unix and thus a high degree of interoperability. The following diagram may help sort out some of the major lines:

Craig

 

[BaronJ]

Hi Craig,

I'd forgotten about "NextStep" ! Probably because it wasn't too common. UnixWare was the first distribution I actually purchased.
Prior was what ever version of Unix the University ran and the punched cards.

Then in the early nineties, my wife bought me a book with Yggdrasil Linux bound into it. Those were fun times, searching for software, modifying it for your hardware and compiling it.

Today its is very much easier, everything gets sorted out for you !

 

[Steamchick]

Wow! Looks like you know a bit about this Craig. I shall have another go tomorrow, I.E. The Amiga link.
Thanks.
K2

 

[awake]

Ken, Linux has a reputation of needing a resident geek - regular users need not apply.

But ... shall we discuss how often I, as the resident geek both at home and in the office, am called in to help someone with a Windows issue? (And sometimes Mac as well, but I don't use a Mac, and can only do a little to help there - primarily when I can use the command line interface to do something unix-y.)

My point is, from what I can see, current Linux distros are no less easy or hard to use than current Windows distros; both will benefit from someone to call on to get you over a hump now and then. The big difference is that there are comparatively way fewer Linux geeks around than Windows geeks. This is the main reason my parents went back to Windows when they had to replace their laptop - they now live 4 hours away, and the only local tech support available to them is Windows-only.

I might add that the Windows tech support often isn't all it cracked up to be - sometimes the techs "know" Windows only in the sense that they have been trained to deal with certain issues, but don't really understand the internals well enough to solve unusual problems. I would venture to guess that Linux tech support / geeks tend to be more likely to know the internals - ?

 

[willray]

I might add that the Windows tech support often isn't all it cracked up to be - sometimes the techs "know" Windows only in the sense that they have been trained to deal with certain issues, but don't really understand the internals well enough to solve unusual problems.

You used this word "sometimes" -- I don't think it means, what it would appear you used it to mean in this sentence...

 

[awake]

You used this word "sometimes" -- I don't think it means, what it would appear you used it to mean in this sentence...

Are you suggesting that their skills are only mostly dead?

(I hope I am correct in thinking that was an allusion to The Princess Bride. If not, my attempt at a response probably won't make much sense!)

 

[Steamchick]

Thanks Andy. I am currently doing a 12 hour copy of all the files to a separate drive as an independent back-up. Maybe if it is done overnight I'll be able to re-load Q40S tomorrow and give it a try.
Cheers.
K2

 

[willray]

Are you suggesting that their skills are only mostly dead?

(I hope I am correct in thinking that was an allusion to The Princess Bride. If not, my attempt at a response probably won't make much sense!)

Far from it - mostly dead, is slightly alive, which proposes a state of their education that I believe might be termed inconceivable.

 

[ajoeiam]

Ken, Linux has a reputation of needing a resident geek - regular users need not apply.

But ... shall we discuss how often I, as the resident geek both at home and in the office, am called in to help someone with a Windows issue? (And sometimes Mac as well, but I don't use a Mac, and can only do a little to help there - primarily when I can use the command line interface to do something unix-y.)

M$ products do also need a 'resident geek' - - - - especially in an office setting and they rarely know anything much about what's under the hood either - - - - but they do get paid for that. A 9 month course at a tech school trains a M$ tech to know absolutely everything you know!

I would disagree at least somewhat with your first statement.
It is only after some 20 years of running a Linux variant almost exclusively that I'm really starting to 'get under the hood' as it were.
I was fortunate in finding a mentor, who also became a friend, but as he's passed out of this mortal coil some almost a year ago I now get to fly solo.

I have done things like set up a multi-gpu multi-monitor system some 9 years ago so I have tackled some 'unusual' (most linux coders don't seem to get that more monitor space is VERY useful) tasks in Linux - - - some (sometimes a LOT) time searching with my favorite DuckDuckGo search engine most often gets me what I need to find for 'usable' information.

Linux still specializes in an 'RTFM' response with information pages developed for those that do know what they're doing as reminder clues and with precious little for a noob to actually understand what is needed and especially not what to look for when things don't go right.

Even with that - - - - I prefer to use Linux - - - - at least I can ask someone what the bleeping blizacks they were trying to do with xxxx software and they most often respond. In the M$ word users are their testing squad and if it don't work - - - - - good luck!

Linux IS an interesting community even if its not all of what it could be. The social graces are either way over done (political correctness gone amok) are almost non-existent - - - - but that seems to be quite 'normal' in the rest of the world as well - - - sigh.

 

[aarggh]

I would actually say with the advancement of device drivers over the years Windows has become far more easily supported, and for most people using it is still a fairly easy task for even the biggest noobs. Apart from the bloatware, invasive telemetry, and crap of releases, it is very usable by the vast majority, and most issues are reasonably easy to resolve or to simply google. I'm not saying I love Windows, I think Win7 was the best usable release since WInXP, and I absolutely loathe Win10 (and especially that stupid Metro), but I've seen support demands for Windows users decrease quite dramatically over the years, now it's more getting some particular app to work, or issues learning how to use the app more than anything I find.

I only use the CLI in nix's, and the last GUI version I ran was Suse, which was an awesome distro in it's day, and I assume the desktop experience has improved over the years since, however I'd hate to support the same noobs running Linux.

If desktop support is the seventh level of hell, desktop support for newbie Linux users must the 9th or 10th level I reckon!

 

[Steamchick]

aargh... I'm notsure if I can comment... Having tried loading Q40S for the 5 or 6th time, (I have spent more than the requisite few hours on this already!), instead of a DOS screen that won't accept the password I typed in when i downloaded (3 times so far!) the software, it now tells me (repeatedly - and yes, I have unloaded the software, deleted all references, switched OFF and On and stood at the bottom of the stairs shouting "LINUX" to the heavens... - and even not drunk coffee all the while) - "the compressed file is corrupt" upon which DOS frreezes and I have to unload everything again.... so maybe "Aarrgh!" is the appropriate response?
I think enough for one day (I.E. the last 8 hours...).
The task is becoming so mentally exhausting I may give up, and live with a slow PC MS affair a little while longer...
K2

 

[BaronJ]

aargh... I'm notsure if I can comment... Having tried loading Q40S for the 5 or 6th time, (I have spent more than the requisite few hours on this already!), instead of a DOS screen that won't accept the password I typed in when i downloaded (3 times so far!) the software, it now tells me (repeatedly - and yes, I have unloaded the software, deleted all references, switched OFF and On and stood at the bottom of the stairs shouting "LINUX" to the heavens... - and even not drunk coffee all the while) - "the compressed file is corrupt" upon which DOS frreezes and I have to unload everything again.... so maybe "Aarrgh!" is the appropriate response?
I think enough for one day (I.E. the last 8 hours...).
The task is becoming so mentally exhausting I may give up, and live with a slow PC MS affair a little while longer...
K2

Well Ken it might help you to read and listen to what some people tell you.

I was very specific in telling you to download the live CD iso and burn a bootable CD. I even offered to post one to you !

 

[Steamchick]

Thanks Baron, I was listening, but confused by simply not understanding all the messages - as there were many adding their two-pennorth of suggestions.
The simple suggestion seemed to be to run it from the main hard-drive - and someone said "Q40S" did that very easily... - I was sold on that, as I want to be able to use the 20 years or more of files I already have on the hard-drive. Or maybe I mis-understood their idea?
You idea of running off a CD sounded just a bit "Heath-Robinson" to me... I haven't used CDs in computers for 15 years or more I reckon. I also had the experience that trying to run Linux from a "shop-bought" memory stick had limitations that it didn't access the hard-drive - so how could I use those files? - Is the CD method just the same?
I don't mean to be rude, but the CD idea didn't click with what I have learned to do using MS since the late 1980s.... so I shelved the idea while I tried other things - that I am now unable to make work... But maybe that is how children learn to listen?
I have just tried to download Linux-Lite - as that seemed to be what the Linux Website recommends for "Linux beginners" - I assume I qualify? But having watched some videos, and read some words, I am no better off because I don't know what language they are using. Their words don't seem to have any useful meaning to me? The video starts with "When you have installed Linux OS to your system... - well how do I do that? - whatever 1.2Gb I downloaded says it is on an "H"-drive DVD... - I have a DVD in the front of the machine, but there isn't a DVD in it, nor have I used it for the computer - ever. (I have played some music DVDs, so it is connected and plays.). Unfortunately, years ago I could install "programmes" onto the PC, but Windows 10 only deals in "Apps" and can only unload what exists, not load new ones... (I assume "App" = "Application" = something within the "Programme"?). I don't even know what the jargon means so I'll stop talking nonsense here.

So Maybe I'll simply go back into my little shell where I feel comfortable and carry on with MS until I get curious about the "Big World" on another day?
Thanks for your concern, I'll come back tomorrow..?
K2

 

[Richard Hed]

Thanks Baron, I was listening, but confused by simply not understanding all the messages - as there were many adding their two-pennorth of suggestions.
The simple suggestion seemed to be to run it from the main hard-drive - and someone said "Q40S" did that very easily... - I was sold on that, as I want to be able to use the 20 years or more of files I already have on the hard-drive. Or maybe I mis-understood their idea?
You idea of running off a CD sounded just a bit "Heath-Robinson" to me... I haven't used CDs in computers for 15 years or more I reckon. I also had the experience that trying to run Linux from a "shop-bought" memory stick had limitations that it didn't access the hard-drive - so how could I use those files? - Is the CD method just the same?
I don't mean to be rude, but the CD idea didn't click with what I have learned to do using MS since the late 1980s.... so I shelved the idea while I tried other things - that I am now unable to make work... But maybe that is how children learn to listen?
I have just tried to download Linux-Lite - as that seemed to be what the Linux Website recommends for "Linux beginners" - I assume I qualify? But having watched some videos, and read some words, I am no better off because I don't know what language they are using. Their words don't seem to have any useful meaning to me? The video starts with "When you have installed Linux OS to your system... - well how do I do that? - whatever 1.2Gb I downloaded says it is on an "H"-drive DVD... - I have a DVD in the front of the machine, but there isn't a DVD in it, nor have I used it for the computer - ever. (I have played some music DVDs, so it is connected and plays.). Unfortunately, years ago I could install "programmes" onto the PC, but Windows 10 only deals in "Apps" and can only unload what exists, not load new ones... (I assume "App" = "Application" = something within the "Programme"?). I don't even know what the jargon means so I'll stop talking nonsense here.

So Maybe I'll simply go back into my little shell where I feel comfortable and carry on with MS until I get curious about the "Big World" on another day?
Thanks for your concern, I'll come back tomorrow..?
K2

OH, Har har har, hardy har har. Ken, If I could reach over there, I would kik your ash. Do as Baron points out. Put it on a CD, I don't kare whether or not u haven't used one for a hundred years! This exercise he is telling about, is NOT a permanent solution. It's the noob solution. You know? NOOB, New boy on the block? It's the STARTER solution. You do this so that you can UNDERSTAND the basics and see how it works. If hyou like it, you go from there. SINCE you are a noob at this, it would be very dangerous to even TRY to put this on your hard drive. You don't seem to understand how wonderful this idea is: you can install on a thumbdrive and run your machine! This means you can EASILY try out several different operating system s WITHOUT installing on your hard drive which takes a long time and may mess something up. Please follow Baron's advice. If not, I will have to fly out there froM the Soviet of Washington and kik hyour ash (and incidentally look over your shop too) and hyou can pay my plane ticket.

BTW, "app" is somebodies attempt at re-genning "program". It means the same thing, probably changed because a lot of dummies out there thot that if it was a "programm" you had to be a geek to use it. It's laughable, and myself being a suspicious conspiracy nut bag, naturally, thimpgks there is some sinister reason for this. Well, I thimpfk "app" is cell-phone speak for "program" that spilled over into computer speak.

I thimpfk you are making this Linux thing far too difficult. (Dr. Johnson here: "Tell me about your mother. Did she have a deep fear of change?")

There is also the problem that when you "install" it on msux, that when you boot up, it actually is booting up in msux and hyou are not aware of that. Then msux tries to run an unrunnable program. I don't know for sure what's going on.

 

[BaronJ]

Hi Ken, Richard, Guys,

Richard summed it up in his own imitable way !

The reason that I very specifically referred to the "Bootable ISO" which you have to burn to a CD, put it on a USB memory stick if you must, is that it will not alter your machine or your files or your data in any way. Everything will run from the CD drive !

This has a number of advantages, you get a usable operating system that you can use, play about with and decide if you like it or not. If you like it there is an icon on the desktop that will install it for you, and ask the appropriate questions along the way. If you decide that NO its not for you, you haven't lost anything, just move on to another distribution and try that, or not !

One of the advantages that Linux has is that it will probe your machine to find out what is there that it knows about, and automatically install suitable software to utilise it. This relives you of having to search and find a lot of software that makes your computer work/run. You still may have to obtain suitable software from the repository, but that is just a few mouse clicks.

As Richard said this is the newbie option ! Anyway I don't want him kicking anybodies ***.

I hope that I've covered most of the important points !

 

[BaronJ]

Hi Ken,

I've just been back and re-read some points that you seem to have odd ideas about.

You idea of running off a CD sounded just a bit "Heath-Robinson" to me... I haven't used CDs in computers for 15 years or more I reckon. I also had the experience that trying to run Linux from a "shop-bought" memory stick had limitations that it didn't access the hard-drive - so how could I use those files? - Is the CD method just the same?

Running from a CD is the standard way of trying to protect you, the user, from damaging your existing operating system. MS will **** it up for you at the drop of a hat. The bootable ISO is intended not to allow you to access your existing system. Not because it wants you to install Linux, but to prevent you inadvertently doing damage and then blaming Linux because you didn't understand what you were doing.

Forget what you think you know about Msux !

 

[Richard Hed]

Hi Ken, Richard, Guys,

Richard summed it up in his own imitable way !

The reason that I very specifically referred to the "Bootable ISO" which you have to burn to a CD, put it on a USB memory stick if you must, is that it will not alter your machine or your files or your data in any way. Everything will run from the CD drive !

This has a number of advantages, you get a usable operating system that you can use, play about with and decide if you like it or not. If you like it there is an icon on the desktop that will install it for you, and ask the appropriate questions along the way. If you decide that NO its not for you, you haven't lost anything, just move on to another distribution and try that, or not !

One of the advantages that Linux has is that it will probe your machine to find out what is there that it knows about, and automatically install suitable software to utilise it. This relives you of having to search and find a lot of software that makes your computer work/run. You still may have to obtain suitable software from the repository, but that is just a few mouse clicks.

As Richard said this is the newbie option ! Anyway I don't want him kicking anybodies ***.

I hope that I've covered most of the important points !

I thot Britain had lots of ASH trees. I was going to kik the ash!

 

[aarggh]

For those Windows users who want to try a live Linux distro but don't have a cd/dvd drive, there' a brilliant Windows utility called "Rufus" you can download to create a bootable USB. It' as easy as plug the usb in, point Rufus to the iso image of the downloaded Linux distro, and select the usb as the destination.

You may also need to go into your BIOS to allow booting from USB, you can read the details about that on the Rufus web page.

As others have said, loading from a live (means not installed) version of Linux protects your PC and files from being overwritten. Most distros will also auto mount any partitions it sees so you can access your hard disk safely from within Linux.

 

[Richard Hed]

For those Windows users who want to try a live Linux distro but don't have a cd/dvd drive, there' a brilliant Windows utility called "Rufus" you can download to create a bootable USB. It' as easy as plug the usb in, point Rufus to the iso image of the downloaded Linux distro, and select the usb as the destination.

You may also need to go into your BIOS to allow booting from USB, you can read the details about that on the Rufus web page.

As others have said, loading from a live (means not installed) version of Linux protects your PC and files from being overwritten. Most distros will also auto mount any partitions it sees so you can access your hard disk safely from within Linux.

Yes, the BIOS. If you don't have experience with the BIOS, it may seem a bit intimidating. THis is done in a DOS environment just at boot up time. It's not difficult, however, you must be careful. I have done this a lot and am quite comfortable with it. For those of you whom have never done this, it's simple: search around in the various menus without changing anything until you find the menu that is called something like "boot sequence" or something similar. This is a setting that tells the machine to look FIRST at whatever you set it to.

In the case of a CD iso, you want to set the settings to CD as number 1. If it is a USB iso, you want to set it to USB as number 1. The menu will also have a 2nd place to look for a boot sequence and I thimpfk a 3rd and maybe more. It's been a while and I doesn't remembger it all. The biggest ttrick you must know to get to the BIOS is that there is one of your buttons, usually f10, f11, f12 and sometimes another button.

Usually, you are not told which button this is but I would thimpfk you could find it on-line. At boot time, you must push this button before you get to msux. It won't hurt your machine to try different buttons till hyou find the right one, but what ever you do, do not push more than ONE button. For instance, first try f10. You can push it several times and that's OK, but don't be pushing f11 or what ever till you find out that it didn't work. If it doesn't work, boot up with msux then restart and try the next button. Do not take council of your fears--as long as this is NOT installed on your hard drive.