how do you start a project

[Tin Falcon]

A tip in Elmers engine book also on john-toms site is make a dimensioned sketch of each part on a 3 x 5 or 4 x 6 card. this will familiarize you with each part also you can keep the card near the machine saves time checking the print and keeps the print clean.
Some parts can be used as a pattern to transfer hole locations to others making such a part first can save time and reduce errors.
In general I use lanes method
Order of machining parts depends some on your preferred layout methods. If you do precision layout or use a cnc then start at the bottom and work up works great.also transfer buttons/transfer screws are good hear if you like transfer punches things can change . I guess this goes back to do you make parts to the print or to fit one another question, in the other thread.
Tin

 

[DICKEYBIRD]

A tip in Elmers engine book also on john-toms site is make a dimensioned sketch of each part on a 3 x 5 or 4 x 6 card. this will familiarize you with each part also you can keep the card near the machine saves time checking the print and keeps the print clean.

That's a good tip. The card stock is stiff enough that it doesn't curl up on you, hiding a critical detail.

It also brings to mind a method I've been using lately. I draw up most everything, even the simplest repair jobs, in CAD (2D) which helps get the order of cutting in place and reduces the number of stupid errors.

I have an old PC and printer in the shop so when the time comes to make the 1st cut, I delete everything in the master drawing except for the particular item being made at the time, increase the line width of the part outline, increase the text size, change the color to red on the dimensions and blow it up to almost fill the page. When the drawing is printed up and mounted at the lathe or mill, the target sizes just jump right out at me which reduces the amount of errors made....sometimes. :

 

[Tin Falcon]

I think the redraw helps get the part concept into the brain. and posting the drawing of the single part near the machine helps focus and is a ready reference. And this works wether done by hand or cad.
Tin

 

[compound driver 2]

I dont tend to bugger about i just pick the first page of drawings and a lump of steel and start cutting.
The latest traction engine is 15 hundred weight on the wheels and the horns are 2 foot square 1/4 mild steel with 150 holes in each and 100 rivets in each. No science I just get on with it, too much planning and nothing gets done.

 

[mklotz]

No science I just get on with it, too much planning and nothing gets done.

Yes, and too little planning and you get to make parts two or three times.

Perhaps you have the experience to get away with this approach but it's irresponsible to suggest that newcomers to the hobby should adopt this "damn the torpedoes" approach.

I've had to help far too many newcomers recover from mistakes made by "just starting" to believe that this method should ever be recommended.

 

[Cedge]

Well said Marv. Old timers tend to forget the frustration of their early days and in doing so lose patience with the new guys who struggle with sometimes simple steps. I've machined a project dozens of times in my head before putting the first tool to metal. It might take a bit of time, but it saves a lot on metal and alcohol costs.

Steve

 

[Tin Falcon]

Hear hear Marv
planning work holding is important . I think all of us here have fallen into well the first step is cut the metal to rough size. then you go to machine it only to realize that it is difficult if not impossible to hold in the machine . then you grab the big piece you cut the little one from do the machining on it then cut it off and the original get tossed in a box.
Tin

 

[Maryak]

Marv, Cedge and Tin,

Very well said.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[compound driver 2]

If you have a set of drawings its planned out for you. Looking at the horns there are 19 bits that attach to the horn plates if I look at 19 drawings it dont take that long to see if theres a problem with any of them.
Careful marking out is the best planning you can do, I see more stock tossed by people relying on DRO's than by those using a rule square and a scrive. As you laythe lines and marks out on the metal it should become obviouse the order to machine a part.
Work holding is a natural development of the transition from drawing to machine.
Id say a newcomer is more likely to be put off by the indecision of planning than the risk of loosing a bit of stock. Im not saying dont think about what your doing im saying get on with it and build the models, after all thats what its about.

Point of fact in a year i throw next to nothing away i hate wasting money. Given that a cylinder block casting is a few thousand $'s its not in my interest.

 

[Cedge]

Compound
And how many years have you been having swarf with your cornflakes? Yes.. the drawings are the map, but if you look around you, there are new guys here still struggling to decipher the language of drawings. Yes.... you can over think a thing, but even you plan your next move before executing it. Your advantage is having years of experience to back up your choice of routes.

Like many old hands you do things without having to think about them because you've been there before. Experience is not a just add water sort of thing. It's gained by learning to reason your way out of tight spots, no matter how elementary they might seem later.

I did high end digital graphics work for a while. I was considered one of the "old hands" in the field at the time. I had to learn that the things I did without thinking were huge mysteries to those who were trying to learn those black arts. It wasn't that they were dolts, but that they didn't have enough background to even know what questions to ask in order to illicit a usable answer.

I finally took to watching myself while at work to spot the little things like tricks of the trade that I executed as naturally as breathing and to share those with them. Before long the newbie was on track and often teaching the master. I soon learned that I liked that part.... a lot.

Cut the newbie a bit of slack and show him HOW to get to the comfort level where chucking and going are a natural thing. You certainly have the talents, but do you have the courage and patience it takes to share that knowledge?

Steve

 

[Paula]

This thread reminds me of a plaque that an old boss of mine had on his office wall. It read:

Planning without action is futile.
Action without planning is fatal.

The point being, I suppose, that one needs to strive for a workable medium.

Looking back through the engines I've completed, an interesting thing I notice is that I almost always seem to make the parts in more-or-less the same order that they would be assembled. For example:

1) Base, frame, etc.
2) Cylinder(s)
3) Crankshaft
4) Piston
5) Connecting rod
6) Cyl. head, valves
7) Eccentric, cam, timing gears, etc.
8) Carburetor (if applicable)
9) Other stuff that gets "bolted on"
10) You get the idea...

Like others have said, while I'm in the process of accumulating materials, components, and any needed tools/cutters, I'm busy studying drawings and "machining in my head". Each engine is different, and may require a unique approach or method of attack.

My next project has very scant, undetailed drawings, so it will allow (require) a lot of "improvising" and off-the-cuff figuring out.

Enjoying all of the responses so far...

Paula

 

[Kludge]

My next project has very scant, undetailed drawings, so it will allow (require) a lot of "improvising" and off-the-cuff figuring out.

That's kind of how I work anyway. It's not because I'm super experienced but, I guess, because I'm good at visualization. After I have a clue what it'll look like, I can fit what I see in my head around what I have in the shop. Usually I make undimensioned sketches to ensure what I "see" will actually work. Ummm ... no, not always undimensioned. Sometimes I have to sort of dimension them to get ratios etc straight.

I do NOT recommend this to anyone inexperienced. Not no way and not no how. I'm blessed with a talent that has helped me fight off the demons raised by nightmares and memories I'd rather not have by allowing me to imagineer machines in some detail. (Actually, I don't recommend the reason these designs come into being either. It sucks big time.)

I guess it's an up side to being totally weird. ;D

Best regards,

Kludge

 

[compound driver 2]

Cedge,
You do waffle on lol.

My 9 year old seems to think i have the time to teach him, given that before his ninth birthday he had his first boiler made and a twin cylinder oscilator made. The boiler has a test certificate passing it to 160PSI on the hydraulic and a working pressure of 80PSI.
he now has a 1938 Southbend lathe and with out much past a lift with the headstock he's well on the way to stripping and refurbishing the machine.

Id rather tell a new model engineer to just get on with it than sit and worry about what to do next.

 

[Cedge]

CP...
That's why the rest of us hang around the place.... to keep the newbies from being lead astray by lousy "advice" like that. I may, by your definition, "waffle about", but I do try to share what little I know how to do... how about you?

Steve

 

[Maryak]

Ok Guys, enough is enough, the topic is locked but left to help our new machinists pick the good bits out of it.

Maryak

 

[Tin Falcon]

Gentlemen:

Lets get some perspective here It is the Christmas season we are here to have FUN!!

CD, lets try to remember when your son was first learning the basics. It is great he has so much experience at a young age; he obviously has a very experienced teacher. You were right there with him, seeing and sharing with him all the little details as you went along; keeping him from injury; clearing his confusions; enjoying his successes with him, and centering him in any failures (or perceived failures). But here on the forum, it's different. Some of the folks on here have days or weeks or no experience or training. Folks, we need to encourage folks to jump in and make chips. The fear of messing up or making a mistake can hold folks back from getting started. Folks must have a basic understanding of safety before they can use the machines, and must understand a few basics of planning and work holding before making a usable part.

From Mrs. Falcon: Good Morning! Asked for the privilege of adding my couple nickels worth. It took a lot of doing for Tin to convince me to step into his inner sanctum and start 'making chips'. Scary stuff!! But like CD with his son, Tin (and our experienced son) were right there with me. Each of the folks who have contributed to this thread have shared the sequence they prefer to use in building engines - which is what Art Trans asked for. He has much useful food for thought, once he overlooks the extra debating. He, like any newbie, can sift through, think about what would work for him, and try it out. Others might even get a nudge to try something different. THAT is what this forum was established for, right??

This forum is founded on the premise the newbie or old hand can ask a question without reprisal, without a bunch of debate about whose idea is best, without hints of name calling. It's important to remember that.

Folks this is not High school debate club it is a forum. We're here to share our ideas with others, not prove to ourselves or others that we are right and others are wrong.

Bob I see you locked this to settle things down. I think this is a great thread and has stayed mostly on track. except for the minor head butting here. Need I say? play nice guys
I am going to unlock the thread
TIN FALCON IS WATCHING

 

[artrans]

You no men i don't really no what happened here but I will tell you this. All my life and I am now 47 years old anything I like or want I would buy a book and read up on it and see the so called text book way of doing things. Then I would dive in and between what I learned by the book and any mistakes I make come up with my way. Now my way could be so hard and maybe the worst way of doing it but it works for me. Now that being said I also am not a bone head and believe that my way is the best so I always look for a new way when I come across someone or something that can shed light on a subject because I am of the believe that I can always learn something. For a good example and it is a very simple subject go to you local book store and you will see many books on how to organize anything now stop and think a min why in the hell do we need a book about that. Well I will tell you why go to you shop now and I would bet 9 out of 10 of use the shop looks like who did and ran. And as a matter of fact that to was a thread also on this site and a good one I mite add. bottom line
guys there are a million ways to do things like we where all told in school there is no stupid questions. again sorry for making trouble I saw and still see no harm in it but its beginning to make one not what to post anything because its no fun if it cause probelms I and I am sure most of us have many problems and this was a way of forgetting them but I guess people will be people and stir the pot. I always said you can be the first person to live on the moon
and the first neighbor will be you worst night mare and you will be forced to move.

 

[Philjoe5]

This is a great thread so I'll try to give it a little nudge in its intended direction.

1. I usually start a project making the most difficult intricate part first.
2. Then to make sure I made it accurately I start making all the things that get attached to it.
3. Once I get to that point I start making all the parts that branch out
4. Often I save some of the messier stuff until last, like making a flywheel from barstock.

My next project, though, will start at step #4. Why? Right now I'm betwixt and between projects. Last week I spotted this 6" steel round sitting in the recycle bin. I thought, well almost any engine I make can always use a nice 6" flywheel, so I made one. I have no idea where it's going to end up but as a finished off flywheel it sure looks better than that scrap of steel sitting in the recycle bin.

Cheers,
Phil

 

[Propforward]

Well, there's a lot of good advice here, and I'm glad I read the thread (I'm a poet and I don't know it). It has certainly given me some good pointers - I am still setting up my shop, but I have been looking at a number of good barstock plans for my first engine. For me it's helpful to get a little bit of success when taking on something new - kind of helps to boost the enthusiasm somewhat, so I might take a slightly bass ackwards approach on my first engine project - turn out a couple of the simpler parts first to keep my spirits and moral up kind of thing, before progressing onto the more difficult parts. After all, this is supposed to be fun!

Certainly I will be massively overthinking the making of some parts, over and over in my head to give myself the best chance of success, hopefully that way I'll end up with something I can be proud of. I have a little dream to take part in the engine of the month competitions!

Again - great thread with some good advice to consider. You could probably form a pretty good life philosphy from the way you go about machining projects! Something along the lines of "begin nothing until you have considered how it is to be finished".

Great stuff.

 

[Metal Mickey]

High, you could produce a book from the replies here. For my part (no pun) I have a look to find the most difficult or part that I fear the most, to start on. My reason being that if that's out of the way the chance of completing the task should be higher.

In the main this works out to be true but several times the hardest part I think to make, turns out to be less so and some smaller item ends up being a problem! That could be down to my 'newness' but its worked in the past!.

Whatever way you decide on, the fact that you have asked the question means you should do fine!

I also listen/read all advice offered then I make MY decision. That also seems to work. Finally, don't worry about making mistakes. They can be used for smaller items in the future. You'll be amazed at the value (not financial) of your 'scrap' recycle' whatever you call it, box.

Just go for it and enjoy!