How do I join the edges of a brass frame?

[golddustpeak]

I’m in the thinking / planning stage of building a replica of an early horseless carriage.


My thought is to use ¼” x ½” solid brass for the frame which will be approximately 4” x 17”.

Now my question is how should I join the rails together (and other attachments to them)?

I see my options as:
Glue / Epoxy
Soft Soldering
Hard Soldering with silver or brass
Brazing but I only have a Propane torch which I do not think will generate enough heat.

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tornitore45]

Make punch pricks to guarantee a gap, pin with copper rivet (12 gauge wire) and silver braze. Avoid but joints.

Propane is fine with a big torch. People silver braze boilers much larger than a 1/2" x 1/4" bar joint. If the bar length drains off too much heat, wrap with rock wool or the special blankets for the purpose.

 

[crueby]

I agree that silver brazing will give you the best results - MUCH stronger joint than soft soldering. Propane or MAPP gas torch would be plenty for small pieces like that. Just this morning I was silver brazing on some pieces for my locomotive build, onto 1/2" thick x 1.5" wide brass stock - handheld torch did the job just fine. Rivets, posts, or small screws are very handy for holding parts in place while joining, keeps them from moving around. Steel clamps can work, but they will also wick away heat on small parts. For my work I am using medium grade silver solder with Harris white flux.

 

[Swifty]

I see my options as:
Glue / Epoxy
Soft Soldering
Hard Soldering with silver or brass
Brazing but I only have a Propane torch which I do not think will generate enough heat.

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.

We're coming into the same problem that has occurred before, first of all which country are you from?

Members are talking about silver brazing, which is the correct way to go, but it's called silver soldering or hard soldering as you have stated, in some countries. Members from North America seem to call it silver brazing, Australia and England call it silver soldering. Brazing is something different, using brazing filler rods.

Paul.

 

[golddustpeak]

We're coming into the same problem that has occurred before, first of all which country are you from?

Members are talking about silver brazing, which is the correct way to go, but it's called silver soldering or hard soldering as you have stated, in some countries. Members from North America seem to call it silver brazing, Australia and England call it silver soldering. Brazing is something different, using brazing filler rods.

Paul.

Yup I figured (from being a major lurker) that would cause some confusion and being form the USA that's why I tried to define my terms

 

[goldstar31]

Of course there is the trusted and tried arc welder! You could 'tin' with silver solder paste before fluxing it with a beaten thin piece of solder and use a carbon rod to melt the joint.

It's not daft, something similar is used to weld tungsten carbide tips onto tools! Silver solder sheet is available!

Norman

 

[Blogwitch]

I think you would have a greater success rate if you used very thin wire silver solder, or very thin sheet, if you only have say 1/16" rod, flatten it out as far as it will go and make what are called pallions. these are very thin small pieces that can be put in between the two parts with a watered flux. Then it is just a matter of heating up the area without pointing the torch directly at the solder until the solder runs around the joint by capilliary action. People tend to put too much solder on the joint, which is both unsightly and wasteful of a very expensive item.
Here are a series of pics that show the process
This is the assembly with joints fluxed and rings of solder around the pipes

Notice where the flame is in relationship to the solder, I am using the main block to heat up and melt the solder.

This is the almost finished article with lovely soldered joints with no wastage or solder runs at all

John

 

[Brian Rupnow]

I am a Canadian, and we call it "silver solder" here. It is much harder and stronger than "soft solder" which plumbers use. I use an oxy acetylene torch with a small tip to silver solder with, although many model makers seem to have success using Mapp gas or even a Butane torch.---Brian

 

[bazmak]

We used to have to make up bandsaw blades to length and flush finish.Before butt welding with pressure and electric we silver spldered
The 8mm wide x 1.2 thick had a taper ground on each side 10 long to a knife edge.Flux and a small piece os silver solder were inserted between the joint and clampedndder pressure Joint to red heat and bingo.Small amount of cleaning up and a strong SCARFE joint.Propane gas will suffice for most model items.Where applicable small brass rivits to hold the part together and silver solder.I once made a musical box for my wife in the form of a treasure chest
1.5mm round hd rivets were ideal.Made lots of special rivit sets.Even made a working padlock and key

 

[goldstar31]

Baz
Thanks for the memory but I never got much mileage out of a little Burgess bandsaw making my own blades as you have described. I suspect that the pressures and strains exerted on a joint on tempered steel which had been blown up red hot- and lost the temper was responsible. I gave it away when the wear on nylon wheels and rubbishy alloy got too much to endure.

Of course the other way is to electrically butt weld- and then re-temper at one setting.

My wife had a rather clever four headed turret spot welder to do wires and stainless bands in her orthodontic work. Neat and quick if she hadn't forgotten to collect her wedding ring on one of the unused heads!

Me, I had a bigger spot welder to do my car panels. Home made arms made out of steel( wrong but works) and electrodes out of copper rods for lightning earth rods! The other expedient is the Mig but instead of using steel wire one uses 'brass or bronze' wire with pure argon. Dead quick, soft weld - great.

Hope this helps

Norman

 

[golddustpeak]

Thanks folks..............

 

[kvom]

You could also use corner gussets with screws.

 

[Wizard69]

I’m in the thinking / planning stage of building a replica of an early horseless carriage.


My thought is to use ¼” x ½” solid brass for the frame which will be approximately 4” x 17”.

Now my question is how should I join the rails together (and other attachments to them)?

I see my options as:
Glue / Epoxy
Soft Soldering
Hard Soldering with silver or brass
Brazing but I only have a Propane torch which I do not think will generate enough heat.

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.

I would think that silver solder would be the way to go and "good enough". Ideally you would solder joints that are already mechanically sound. Silver solder seems to be the best balance between soft solders and brazing.

In the days of lead solder I'd might even suggest that for the right type of joints. I'm thinking mortise and tendon, lap and similar joints that would mimic the pipe and socket common in plumbing. After all lead soldered plumbing was awfully reliable and a horseless carriage shouldn't be getting hot. The lead free solders commonly available these days are a different matter and I just don't have the experience with them.

As for heat, the right size propane torch would certainly be nice for this sort of project. One trick worth considering is containing heat. High temp blankets have already been mentioned but a fire brick house can help too. In any event the idea is to prevent exposed metal radiating heat at a high rate. If the work space is significantly warmer than the shop space that will slow heat transfer. Or to look at it another way give the heat no place to go.

Beyond all of this soldering is just like welding, prep work can make or break joint quality.