Holding an end mill in the chuck, good or bad idea?

[JCSteam]

Hi all,

Just a quick question about holding end mills. I was looking to buy an end mill and angleplate, plus associated clamps ECT for me to be able to mill on the lathe.

There's something in my head that's telling me I read that holding an end mill in a 3 or 4 jaw chuck is a bad idea.

I don't have the money to spend on an MT1 collet set for my lathe, I was wondering if the above method is a no go, could a steel round be drilled and cut with 3 or 4 slits, then placed back into the lathe and bored out to the same dimentions as the end mill shaft, then when tightening the end mill will be held securely on its whole circumfrence. Plus it should be accurately on the centerline too. And run square to the crosslide

Any other ideas for a collet holder for little money or a work around appreciated

 

[DJP]

I tried this approach and it doesn't work well. The cross slide is not rigid enough for milling, at least, in my case when adding and X-Y vice to the tool holder.

Better to save your money and buy a mini mill to start the learning process. Eventually you will ned up with a J head Bridgeport but it takes time.

My thoughts for your consideration.

 

[werowance]

I have done it on my lathe with no problem. but keep in mind that the 3 jaw self centering is not dead on so the end mill will wobble a little so you are not using all the cutting teeth on the mill, and that might be important if you are using an endmill that is almost the same size as what you are trying to cut, might cause the cut to be a little wider than you expected.

I have a mill lathe combo machine but I prefer to use the mill in the 3 jaw on the lathe portion over using the milling feature of my combo. its just easier for some things than taking off my compound and putting on the mill vice. man I wish I had just got a lathe and a separate mill.

 

[goldstar31]

There's a lot of good model engineers who never needed a milling machine and in my particular situation, I would lose more friends, neighbours and reduce value of my home by having a 'Bridgeport'.

So let's start again and I realize the difficulties which arise from having a little early Myford ML and not much else.
Of course, having to accept a Number ONE Morse taper in the tailstock and the spindle sort of makes things difficult-- but not impossible.

In your circumstances, I would mill in what was always the classic way and use what the lathe always came with, that is the faceplate or what Martin Cleeve used and that was a three position milling cutter using either square or round his tool bits.
The odds of a milling cutter working its way out of a three jaw chuck- without a holding ar of some sort is frighteningly high.

As for a vertical slide, there is almost always the need to have a vice to go with it. When push comes to shove, a vertical slide is only a topslide turned through an angle of 90 degrees(or as I mentor, the 4th part of a circle)

Failing that, you can always settle for a strap and a set of blocks. Again, the classic and much loved 'block of metal t'wer that size' and peppered with a variety of holes, tapped threads and whatever was what most of the ACTUAL model designers adopted.

No body had a milling machine until perhaps 1974. Like 'Ned' Westbury and Prof Dennis Chaddock did-- I made mine.

Jon, I see an e-mail from you coming through but for others as well, that is my view

Cheers

N

 

[ShopShoe]

I don't think using the chuck is a good idea, for the reasons already mentioned.

I did milling on my lathe before I got a mill.

You do not need a collet SET. Find out what end mills you need and find out what shank size will serve you, then get one MT collet in that size to get started (or a couple sizes.) You can make a draw bar.

Of course, you will soon decide that you need a mill. We are lucky today that we have many options for milling machines. In the early days of model engineering, the lathe was THE machine and used for most of the work.

--ShopShoe

 

[JCSteam]

Yes I understand how it could walk out of the chuck jaws, my thought was to make a sleeve in the 3 jaw bored to fit the dia of the end mill. With 2 slits nearly all the way through, and a 3rd that's cut the whole way through. This would then eliminate run out and also provide a much better support for the shaft of the end mill.

 

[werowance]

now that's an idea, except you would have to make sure you had the homemade collet indexed properly each time you used it so it would be nearly dead center. ie mark where the jaws of the 3 jaw have to be each time.

now I have not had an end mill ever walk out of my 3 jaw chuck, it holds it very well. but I first realized the not on center thing when trying to mill a 12 mm slot in something, came out about 13 mm after just one pass, I scratched my head then realized why. now days I just use an er32 chuck when I need to be really carefull, else I just hog away with one in the 3jaw.
I also have a new 3 jaw that's not so out of center as well so that helps me.

 

[JCSteam]

The problem with it is as soon as the sleeve is removed from the jaws it's no longer on center line, as you say it would have to be indexed exactly the same every time. The sleeve is a one time use, but could be bored again, for a larger dia mill.

 

[fcheslop]

Dont forget if youre just facing a part Then a flycutter bolted onto the faceplate and the job bolted down to the cross slide would do or mount the job to the face plate and skim it
I made a simple fly cutter from a bit of 1 inch dia bar the cutter sticks out of one face and held with a grub screw tuther ends threaded about 3/8 something or other it doeasnt matter and a bolt and washer to fix it to the faceplate nowt fancy but its worked for the last 40 years

 

[Charles Lamont]

The problem with it is as soon as the sleeve is removed from the jaws it's no longer on center line, as you say it would have to be indexed exactly the same every time. The sleeve is a one time use, but could be bored again, for a larger dia mill.

Or you could use the 4-jaw chuck. In practice I found a good 3-jaw adequate for most jobs if I kept a sharp eye out for any tendency of the cutter to walk out. After all, you cannot take heavy cuts with a vertical slide, which was all I had for forty years.

Despite having a milling machine now, I still occasionally mill in the lathe, but normally hold the cutter in an ER32 collet chuck (which is a backplate type, for greater rigidity than a 2MT taper mounting).

On the milling machine, for light cuts, on soft material, with a small cutter, if the drill chuck is mounted, I sometimes cheat and don't bother to change it. This is much more risky in the lathe as there is no drawbar to hold the chuck in place.

 

[goldstar31]

Of course, one can cheat( or save) and use a drill an end mill

And for a bit more 'cheating' and this somewhat ignored reply about using a wood router, you can use the same 43mm collar on the lathe boring table to utilise a hand power drill - so long as it also has the 43mm collar.

Suddenly, your old lathe can do more tricks-- which us oldies have done-- for time immoral or since Pontius was a Pilate.

Old Norm

 

[JCSteam]

Hi Frazer, I was thinking along the lines of milling slots, however I do have a flycutter, or that's what I assume it is, round metal lump that is screw fitting to fit straight onto the spindle. Though it has six round "bits" in it that are held in place by bolts around it's circumfrence. One of the "bits" has snapped in half but when they are all inserted it looks much like an indexable flycutter, the bits been sharpened to around a 60° angle.

 

[JCSteam]

Norm I'm afraid I didn't understand the router idea.
I know with a flycutter, end mill, and clamp set plus an angle plate the lathe becomes a lot more versatile and goes from just turning round bits, to skimming flat surfaces, making dovetails, and a whole host of tooling.

 

[goldstar31]

Norm I'm afraid I didn't understand the router idea.
I know with a flycutter, end mill, and clamp set plus an angle plate the lathe becomes a lot more versatile and goes from just turning round bits, to skimming flat surfaces, making dovetails, and a whole host of tooling.

Jon

With a router, you simply remove the stuff around the motor 'cartridge' and keep the collets to hold a variety of things. All very useful and easily returned to nibbling wood or even aluminum. To hold the beastie onto a saddle, one can held down with a clamp of sorts with a clamping ring of 43mm. Could be wood or all.

When you get tired of your new variation on a theme, you can swop it over and put a drill in and depending on your mood and whatever is held in the chuck, do drilling, slotting or a myriad of other things and at any angle.I have my old Bosch but several more recent oddities to enhance the King of All Tools.

Possibly, the trick is to learn to think whatYOU can do rather than read all about it.

Cheers

N

 

[fcheslop]

The problem or at least for me is when using a multi toothed cutter all the inserts have to be set very accurately or you end up with the cut been done by one tip
My thoughts are KISS and been lazy just use one tip just cannot be bothered over sophistication for the sake of it
The little bobbin type flycutter I made does the job and still has the re purposed bit of center drill in it. Yep cheap skate rules me and money have always been strangers so anything that can do the job for nowt is a winner
I made the Clayton lathe only with a vertical slide yep its not the most rigid but gently gently and you get it done
Before I knew better I used to simply grip the milling cutter in the lathes chuck and never had a problem although this was way before the elf and safety brigade its youre decision
Yes a mill is nice but you know I see loads of fancy kit in shops here and other places and do the majority of them produce anything better???????????
I will leave that to you

 

[BaronJ]

Hi JCSteam,

You are right, I agree that holding an end mill, or a slot drill for that matter in the lathe chuck is a bad idea.
However as has been said milling with the lathe has been done, very successfully for years. I have done this in the past and I admit that it is quite a steep learning curve to become proficient at it.

Note that fly cutting has been mentioned here, and that should be a clue. Using a single point to cut grooves, slots or even a dovetail works well and can produce very accurate work ! True you can't hog out material like you can on a mill, but slowly and carefully will get you there in the end.

Some where kicking about in my workshop is a dovetail slide that I made quite a few years ago, using the Myford and single point tool bits held in the four jaw. If I can lay my hands on it I will take some pictures and post them.

 

[JCSteam]

Yeah that's my concern also, and getting them all facing the correct way for cutting. They are all numbered corresponding to the individual holes, as they are all different lengths. I assume this was set up with blanks and ground on the lathe, or something with a spindle thread and motor, so they were all exact.

At least I've had it confirmed that there is a risk, and elf and safety is all about managing those risks, (if you look into it properly). For example a guard invade it comes loose. Though I think a sleeve would be a better option than just clamped into the jaws.

Thanks as always for everyone's help on this��

 

[goldstar31]

If I recall, Baron has one of these three position home made milling cutters.. Pelmanism you know?

However my thoughts turned back to Number 1 Morse tapers and whilst I have a set of blanks-possibly ArcEuroTrade, they don't seem to be listed now. Mine went into a Brookes t&c which I made in a fit- of something.
However, a hole made tailstock taper turning device is available from Hemingwaykits, there is one in PopularMechanics magazine.
I have an Arrand but heigh ho! The trouble with Popular Mechanics is that there are literally so many nice goodies described that one( moi) gets somewhat sidetracked.

Worth a LONG browse and a lot of printing.

N

 

[JCSteam]

Thanks Baron,

In the long term that is my wish. To make a dove tail slide, that will mount to an angle plate, and thus a vertical slide. May take a bit before im at that stage so looking for an interim measure until I have the skill set to do that. I know that it would be risky in that the length of the slide would be limited to the length of travel and rigidity of the crosslide. One day maybe.

 

[JCSteam]

I've seen the taper attachments in operation, and now understand how they work, for a MT1 taper though on my ML4 dialing in from an existing taper, would work just as well just a long winded way around.

I also have a MT1 to MT2 adaptor which is brand new, as the Morse tapers are the same it wouldn't matter if I dialed the top slide in from this. Mounted and dialed in, in the four jaw.

See I am listening just a little slow on the uptake