Hand Sharpening?

[Tin Falcon]

here is form tool I carved roughed out with the bench grinder and added detail with a dremel tool and a cheap set of HF diamond points. As you can see it is for miniature candle sticks.I know diamond is not supposed to be used on steel but the set was cheap and it worked.

Hope you find it interesting
Tin

 

[BobWarfield]

Wow, Tin, cool candlestick!

Form tools are cool.

The other thing I think is interesting are the tangential cutters. They seem to be a study in sharpness + rigidity beats rake. I intend to try one sometime.

BW

 

[Tin Falcon]

IMHO the unquestionable advantage of using HSS blanks is versatility.
with a handful of blanks a little time and a little skill you can have a cutter for just about any need. And not only does this humble tool serve a multitude of needs on the lathe but if one has a shaper then it can perform double duty. Yes you probably want another handful of bits for the shaper since the geometry is little different but you get the idea. then of course it has its uses a fly cutter on the mill.
I think most of us are pretty spoiled even in our home shops. Think about it there is an abundance of cheap and or affordable import tooling available from many sources. And many of us can have an order from MSC, Mcmaster Carr or Grainger. Delivered in 24 hours at UPS ground rates. So we for the most part do not NEED to make a special cutter.
But for the times when placing an order is not feasible or you need the tool NOW the humble HSS steel blank is ready and waiting to be put into service.
Tin

 

[snowman]

Black Kettles,

I think that too many people think that if they just had the right inserts, or right tool, or right whatchajigger, all their problems would be solved.

So, they spend way to much time online researching things, shopping on Ebay, dreaming...and not enough time in the shop. Grinding tool bits is literally something that takes an afternoon, going back and forth between the lathe and the grinder and the computer, but it's something that we all fought with.

Sincerely,

Pot

 

[BobWarfield]

Nah, Snow, the real issue is there are too many people that think you have to go all one way or the other and want to pick a fight with whatever the "other way" might be.

Been there, done 'em both, like 'em both for different purposes. I'll take the carbide for whatever there are appropriate inerts for. I can't see fooling with anything else for basic turning, facing, or boring.

For the unusual, you can't beat having an HSS cutter that is exactly perfect for your needs.

For both, there is a learning curve that takes a lot longer than an afternoon (sez he after spending many afternoons on each). Sure, you can cut with either one in an afternoon. But to do it well and understand the subtleties will take a lot longer. Don't knock the research either. It's saved me much wasted time to stand on the shoulders of others rather than insisting on inventing it all myself.

Cheers,

BW

 

[Tin Falcon]

well said bob:
As much as I push learning to grind HHS. I love my warren HHS inserts and have used and tried many types of tools, brazed carbides and carbide inserts. I am probably missing out some by not having a green wheel and the ability to sharpen carbide in the home shop. You need a balance of both worlds. buy off the shelf wheels when they meet your needs and invent a new one once in a while. (really mean bits here) and you are right lets all keep an open mind and learn.
Tin

 

[snowman]

I agree completely.

I started out in the big CNC world, so I thought carbide was the answer to everything. It definitely has it's place.

But my first lathe purchase was one of those "set of five" carbide indexable tool sets. What a waste of money, I doubt I could get good surface finish with that crap even today. Then I used a set of VNMG holder's (right and left) that I had milled down for EVERYTHING...for probably a good two years. That and a indexable carbide boring bar that I had turned down so it would fit on my lathe (still using obsolete industrial tooling). I have indexable carbides for threading, all kinds of boring, I think I've even got them for chamfering and countersinking and possibly a dovetail carbide somewhere.

I've also got a hefty collection of brazed bits. I never really use those, but there in the box if for some reason I need them.

But then one day I needed a form tool. It didn't cut worth a crap, but it cut, and with enough time at the grinding wheel screwing it up, I got it to cut good.

I really think that if I had started with HSS, a lot of time that I spent frustrated waiting for a tool, or digging through obsolete carbide trying to find the right tool, would have meant productivity.

But like you said, they have their place. If I'm doin a production job, I'm putting the carbide in, it wears so slow that I never have to worry about sharpening, rezeroing, etc. If I'm cutting through a HAZ, I'm putting carbide in. If I'm cutting down hardened tooling, I'm putting carbide or CBN in.

And the research is important, hence the reason I'm reading through tips and tricks ...but I really think that sometimes people get too worked up about having the right tool for the job that they don't try to find a solution with what they have. I know that I do.

 

[Hal]

What a great topic.
Bob W. in the insert code "CCMT" doesn't the "M" stand for molded, and in the "CCGT" the "G" stands for Ground?
M= a thick/tougher edge, and the G= a thinner/ sharper edge.

What tool holder are you using to hold your inserts and is it part of a set?

In the ACCU -FINISH (a carbide honing/finish tool grinder)info they stated that the surface finish on the work piece is no better than the finish on the cutting tool edge. A good reason to hone your cutting edge.

McGyver
When I purchased my lathe some odds and ends of hand ground HSS came with the machine. One is a copy of the Knife tool with chip breaker, they use a small ball end mill to cut the chip breaker grove.
I'll have to try the cutter now.

I need to order a set of insert holders. Are the Warner sets a good choice?

Yesterday I was making a leveling screw for a machine out of 1" hex cold rolled steel. I started with a coated TPG insert using a Aloris #16 neg tool holder.
The surface finish was somewhat similar to what you would get using a chain saw.
There would be a smooth spot, than a small ridge, than maybe a rough section. Just not what I was looking for, so I switched to a HSS cutter with a large honed radius. A better finish but still not the best.
Next I tried a carbide insert that I picked up at the scrap yard, these inserts were triangular, uncoated, ground and NO radius. The "point" of the triangle was ground flat.
The finish was good enough for a bolt,( still not good enough to take pictures of ) I was surprised by the quality of the finish with no radius.

Hal

 

[BobWarfield]

What a great topic.
Bob W. in the insert code "CCMT" doesn't the "M" stand for molded, and in the "CCGT" the "G" stands for Ground?
M= a thick/tougher edge, and the G= a thinner/ sharper edge.

What tool holder are you using to hold your inserts and is it part of a set?

In the ACCU -FINISH (a carbide honing/finish tool grinder)info they stated that the surface finish on the work piece is no better than the finish on the cutting tool edge. A good reason to hone your cutting edge.

McGyver
When I purchased my lathe some odds and ends of hand ground HSS came with the machine. One is a copy of the Knife tool with chip breaker, they use a small ball end mill to cut the chip breaker grove.
I'll have to try the cutter now.

I need to order a set of insert holders. Are the Warner sets a good choice?

Yesterday I was making a leveling screw for a machine out of 1" hex cold rolled steel. I started with a coated TPG insert using a Aloris #16 neg tool holder.
The surface finish was somewhat similar to what you would get using a chain saw.
There would be a smooth spot, than a small ridge, than maybe a rough section. Just not what I was looking for, so I switched to a HSS cutter with a large honed radius. A better finish but still not the best.
Next I tried a carbide insert that I picked up at the scrap yard, these inserts were triangular, uncoated, ground and NO radius. The "point" of the triangle was ground flat.
The finish was good enough for a bolt,( still not good enough to take pictures of ) I was surprised by the quality of the finish with no radius.

Hal

Hal, your (M)olded and (G)round sounds good, but in actuality they are for the tolerance class of the insert:

http://www.anconline.com/nomenclatures/nomenclatureinsert3.htm

There are many tolerance class letters, not just M and G.

I have 2 different sets of holders. The smaller 3/8" are from Glanze (available from Grizzly I believe) and the 1/2" are from Micro100.

These days, it's all about the positive rake. TPG's have no built in compared to the CCMT/GT's. Try some. You'll like them.

Cheers,

BW

 

[S_J_H]

Just an FYI-
Good ol' Enco now carries decent CCGT inserts that'll fit the Glanze tools. They are not real cheap and they are a little delicate.
But they work so well I tend to use them all the time on aluminum, bronze and leaded steel.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=317-2175&PMPXNO=19495568&PARTPG=INLMK32
Steve

 

[BobWarfield]

Good find!

BW

 

[Hal]

Bob W

On the PM forum under the tooling section a guys has some inserts you might want to check out and see if they're what you use. The topic is something about "wicked sharp inserts"

Hal

 

[BobWarfield]

Thanks Hal!

I've corresponded with exkennaguy before. He also has some CCGT's from time to time, but I think they cost about what Enco wants unless he is running a special. I don't at the moment have any tooling that takes the CNMG's he shows there. He's got a lot of interesting toys.

Best,

BW

 

[alan2525]

...It's a hobby, let's have fun. I want HSS tooling to open up new horizons. Instead of telling me (as I do my kids!), gee Bob, when I went to school, I walked up hill both ways in the snow, so you need to go back and start over doing that too, I want to know, "What can I do with HSS that I can't do with my carbide and how do I go about doing it?" I've got form tools covered. Not a hard concept to grasp. Been there, done that.

This is a great thread it's nice to get tips about what works too rather than having to study diagrams of rake and clearance angles in a textbook!

I never knew model engineering was supposed to be fun though, I thought it was all about toil, black fingernails, cut fingers, long nights spent in a shop and 35 years to get a finished model - oh and dissmissive responses to anyone who asks how something is actually done!

FUN??

 

[Mcgyver]

he hasn't been at long enough, he's still young and all cheery ;D