Flathead V-8 engine

[gbritnell]

Gentlemen,

For many years I've had a project in mind to build a Ford flathead V-8 engine. The unique thing about the Ford flathead is that the exhaust runners ran through the water jacket and out the side of the block. Actually this was not a good idea as the extra heat from the exhaust added to the cooling woes of this particular engine. That being said I still wanted to try and build one.
For you fellows who follow my work know I scratch build all of my models from bar stock so after many hours of layouts and drawings I just couldn't come up with a way of fabricating this type of engine from solid. The next plan was to make patterns and coreboxes. I had heard from someone that the old flatheads used 23 cores in the casting process. Having come from a Ford foundry where we cast all types of engines at first I couldn't fathom why this engine would use that many cores. A 302 V-8 engine uses 10 cores and 2 molds, cope and drag. Here again after many hours of layouts and drawings I can now understand why they used so many cores.
Now I've put countless hours into engine and model building but to make all of the coreboxes and patterns required for this engine just seemed a little over the top. I had to ask myself if I really went ahead and made them all and took them to a foundry for casting what would be the cost of making all those cores and casting an engine. Furthermore what would happen if some of the coreboxes go lost or damaged.
It was time for an entirely new game plan! I still wanted to build a flathead but the Ford type was out of the question so the next best thing is the Cadillac design. The difference in this engine compared to the Ford is that all the ports, intake and exhaust, come out of the top of the block. There are castings out there for this type. They are for the Challenger V-8 that Cole's sells but here again I like to make my own engines so it was back to the drawing board.
I have the rough Cad drawings made and have converted them into a solid model. I'm presenting them here for your perusal.
With winter just around the corner, I know it's only July but with the way time flies it'll be here in no time so I'm getting a head start on the project.
gbritnell

 

[ddmckee54]

Awww Man..... When I saw the Ford flathead thread I was hoping to get to see you carve a set of Ardun heads for it.

If you went that route you could eliminate the exhaust through the block problems, that is why he designed them after all, and just simulate the original exhaust ports with cover plates. Build yourself a high performance flathead.

We all know that you really bleed Ford Blue.

Don

 

[ozzie46]

Another awesome thread from George! Yipee!! Lets see, rockin chair, drinks, popcorn. OK. All set. Let the fun begin! woohoo1woohoo1

Ron

 

[Lakc]

Another work of art cometh from George! Yippee!

How do the lash adjusters/cam followers/tappets work with that layout?

 

[kuhncw]

Very nice, George. What bore diameter are you planning?

Regards,

Chuck

 

[RonGinger]

Could you make the block in pieces instead of a cored casting?

I did something like this for the head of my water pup- a water cooled version of the panther pup. I made the bottom of the head to include all the valve passages, then milled away all I could to create a water jacket over the valve passages. The I put a flat plate over the top to create a water cooled head.

Maybe you could split the block into a couple sections, mill the inside passages, then epoxy the parts together to give you a finished block. Obviously this wouldn't work to make production runs, but for a one off model it might work.

 

[gbritnell]

Hi Ron,
Believe me I've looked at most possibilities. The best idea I could come up with was to make the block from steel with a separate manifold piece. This would then get silver soldered to the main block. Now the upper part of the block would be silver solder to the lower part with a lower temperature silver solder. I actually looked at this quite seriously until I thought that I would need a great deal of the machining done before soldering. If there was a glitch then all that machining time would have been wasted.
On a Ford flathead the exhaust runners go from the valve port in a curve around the center 2 cylinders and siamese together before exiting the block. The end runners have a similar curve. There's really no room to make them angular.
From my pattern making training I suspect that they had a lower water jacket core that formed the bottom side of the port wall then the port core was set in place. This core would have had a large print area to hold it in place or the outside of the block would have been made by another core rather than a mold so that the port core could print into it and the upper part of the block. In any case once the port runner was set in place then the upper part of the water jacket would be placed and glued to the lower jacket core. It would need to be glued to prevent fins in the water jacket area when the metal was poured. Now a head slab core would be put in place to locate the water jackets. The head slab has small pockets the water openings in the water jacket core print into. If a fin is created it's in a vertical direction so that it can be knocked off of the rough casting.
Bottom line is it's way too much work for possibly just a few castings.
gbritnell

 

[jschoenly]

Cool stuff! I'm sure you'll figure a way! 5 main bearings though?? That's not correct! I have a freshly machined 1936 LB engine on the work bench which really needs to be put together. Always love the Flatheads.

Evet think about making the very earliest style V-8 that Henry made? I forget now on the center ports but i know the end cylinders come out from and back with the exhaust. Crazy arrangement and it was thermosiphon as well!

 

[gbritnell]

jshoenly,
You're right about the 5 main bearings. With the full sized flathead having a wider space between the center 2 cylinders a larger main bearing could be made but with my cylinders being evenly spaced it doesn't allow for a wide center bearing. With both the intake and exhaust coming out the top of the block it's not going to be a true Ford flathead anyway so might as well make 5 mains. Once the pan's on nobody will see them.
gbritnell

 

[ddmckee54]

What about using a 3D printer to print the block as a 1 piece core. You could do an investment casting, burn out the core and cast the block. Eazee-peazee, or so I've beeen told. I'm not sure what it would cost to get the size item we're talking about printed. I'm sure there are more knowledgable people lurking out there that will be able to tell us how much it would cost. Who knows, somebody might even volunteer to print it. That way you'd stay a little closer to Henry's baby.

Don

 

[gbritnell]

I have been working on the head drawings. With no real way to drill holes through the length of the head I had to come up with another way of getting water in and through it. I think I found the solution, make the heads from two pieces, an upper and a lower. Once machined the internal bosses and flange will be coated with high temp epoxy and then clamped together. With no real stress on the heads this should work well.
gbritnell

 

[gbritnell]

I've had time to model a few more parts, the intake and exhaust manifolds. As with the heads the intake will also be a fabrication, the main upper part and the lower cover plate/mounting flange. This will be made from brass like my 302 intake and silver soldered together.
gbritnell

 

[barnesrickw]

Flatheads are the most amazing thing.


Sent from my iPad using Model Engines

 

[camm-1]

George, this wil be exiting as usual to follow!
I wonder how big it´s going to be? In cu in, or cm3?
Good luck
Ove

 

[gbritnell]

Well I have been plugging away drawing, learning, drawing and learning. With the help of some fellows I have mastered a few more techniques with this modeling program. I have mirrored the head, exhaust manifold and water pump and added them to the assembly drawing. I created the bellhousing and oil pan and added them also.
Shortly I will be starting on the finished cad drawings.
gbritnell

 

[aonemarine]

What about using a 3D printer to print the block as a 1 piece core. You could do an investment casting, burn out the core and cast the block. Eazee-peazee, or so I've beeen told. I'm not sure what it would cost to get the size item we're talking about printed. I'm sure there are more knowledgable people lurking out there that will be able to tell us how much it would cost. Who knows, somebody might even volunteer to print it. That way you'd stay a little closer to Henry's baby.

Don

I do a lot of investment casting of 3d printed parts. Biggest problem is you need to have a disolvable support material and would have to cast the block without the sleeves so you can get the investment in and out of the block. At 1/3 scale I think its very possible to get the exhaust passages to come out ok, but the sleeves and walls of the center exhaust passage are quite thin. Working on getting a sla printer,if I do this project is on the top of the list.

 

[dsage]

Well I have been plugging away drawing, learning, drawing and learning. With the help of some fellows I have mastered a few more techniques with this modeling program.
gbritnell

Hi George:
This should be amazing to watch as usual.
What modeling program are you using/learning?

Sage

 

[gbritnell]

Hi Sage,
I'm using an older version of Solidworks that my son had when he took some engineering classes.
gbritnell

 

[aonemarine]

George, is it too late to talk you into the lincon V12??

 

[dsage]

Hi George:

I see the latest Model Engine Builder magazine Issue 31 has a centerfold picture of Roger Butzen's flathead Ford V8. He as a nice rad on the front - actually the whole front grill of an old car that might have sported the engine. Sorry no links to the picture. Maybe he has posted it elsewhere.

Sage