Electric car plant

[ajoeiam]

Electric car efficiencies are about 6x gas car efficiencies.
A tesla 100 kWh battery car, large, premium, is about 2100 kg with 600 km range.
Our volvo v60 allroad (4-wheel) is about 2100 kg with 900 km range.

The tesla can get charged for free at hundreds of supermarkets around spain (they make a profit at it),
or for free during the day from our 10 kW solar PV array.
About 5 hours at 0.8 cop == 40 kWh or so.
== 40% == 240 km range, for free.
Under 0.01€/kWh.

In any emergency need, the tesla can be charged at 25 kW at home, and will be full in 4 hours.
At peak charge .30€, the cost will be 30€ - solar, approx 15€.
Charging during the night, the EV costs about 2-4c/kWh, == 4 € for a full tank.
Difference about 35x.

The volvo costs 130€ to fill 65 liters.
The difference is 4.5x in favour of EV, worst case, and over 20x in favour of EV, typical use.

Hmmmmmmm - - - so if I bought the Tesla today $100k here.
I don't buy vehicles that expensive.
Say I compared buying that to an older Mercedes diesel (similar quality inside the car).

Even if I bought the Mercedes new - - - - same price - - OK.
Then it might be worth getting the Tesla - - - except - - - here - - - cold weather means that range SUCKS.
Battery life will also not be wonderful!!!!
Changing a $35 to 40k battery every 5 years isn't my idea of 'wonderful'.

So if I compared buying a car like I prefer to drive - - - say something like a Toyota Yaris.
Well Tesla - - - cheap for fill up and cost per distance - - - sorry - - - - EXPENSIVE.
My choice - - - - not my idea of cheap for fill but cost for distance - - - - - - almost reasonable (fuel is far too expensive imo!!!).

I've been hearing about reasonable EVs for what - - - about 4 years now.
I do follow battery technology and upcoming technology.
I'm not seeing that silver bullet yet for even reasonable EVs never mind for honest to pete cheap transportation.
Where I live - - - everything has been designed around car travel - - - - likely would be very very difficult to change.
No EVs that I can see in my future.
(If you look at heavy equipment - - - - even less likely!!)

So - - - maybe if you want to even talk about low cost - - - perhaps you should work from the viewpoint of cost per distance traveled.
Please - - - don't forget to include ALL costs (insurance, repairs, maintenance, depreciation and not just fuel(!!!!!!!!!)).

 

[terryd]

Electric car efficiencies are about 6x gas car efficiencies.
A tesla 100 kWh battery car, large, premium, is about 2100 kg with 600 km range.
Our volvo v60 allroad (4-wheel) is about 2100 kg with 900 km range.

The tesla can get charged for free at hundreds of supermarkets around spain (they make a profit at it),
or for free during the day from our 10 kW solar PV array.
About 5 hours at 0.8 cop == 40 kWh or so.
== 40% == 240 km range, for free.
Under 0.01€/kWh.

In any emergency need, the tesla can be charged at 25 kW at home, and will be full in 4 hours.
At peak charge .30€, the cost will be 30€ - solar, approx 15€.
Charging during the night, the EV costs about 2-4c/kWh, == 4 € for a full tank.
Difference about 35x.

The volvo costs 130€ to fill 65 liters.
The difference is 4.5x in favour of EV, worst case, and over 20x in favour of EV, typical use.

Hi Hanermo,
An interesting read from someone with actual experience. just a couple of questions for someone who lives in a more notherly latitude and putting aside for a moment the climate costs of burning fossil fuels.

Firstly you say that the Tesla has a 600km range (Tesla quoted figure), how is that affected by real driving conditions such as here in the UK where for a part of the year we need to drive with headlights, windscreen wipers, heater (or climate control). Is there a temperature cost as we often have freezing weather during winter. I often drive long distances at night so range is important for me. It would be even more important perhaps even further north where sunlight is reduced during for half of the year and much driving is in the dark unlike sunnier climes. One of our Motoring organisations points out that:

"At a speed of 31mph, a temperature of 15 degrees C and on 15-inch wheels, the Renault Zoe should deliver 278 miles of electric range. This drops to 190 miles if you increase the speed to 56mph, and 185 miles if you use the heater.The range falls even further if the temperature drops below freezing. It’s why EV drivers find that they can’t travel as far in the winter. That, and the increased reliance on the blowers, heater and accessories like heated seats." On top of that of course a more aggressive driving style will reduce range especially if the most is made of the impressive acceleration and top speed.

Secondly a Tesla S with the maximum range you quote costs upwards of £95,000 here in the UK whereas a Volvo V60 can be bought for around £43,000 a difference of £52,000 (both new), so over say a 10 year life it costs £5,200 a year extra which surely must be part of the running costs, or, if I bought the car for cash I would have the difference earning me interest of say 3% here in the UK that's over £1500 a year lost. If I buy on credit the more expensive option (i.e. the Tesla) would cost me in more expensive interest charges.

There must also be an infrastructure cost, albeit small, in having a 10kw solar pane array installed. My 4kw installation cost me £12,500 here in the UK just over 10 years ago but it is less efficient than say if I were in Spain where the annual sunshine is greater. If I didn't have a solar array I don't think that it would be cost effective to install one and would have to pay normal electric prices for charging but so with the Tesla S 100kwh battery a full charge would cost me around £32 at home at current energy prices (and rising).

TerryD

 

[lohring]

In the beginning of this thread I stated that I've had a Tesla Model 3 for 4 years and 67,000 miles. I live in a moderate climate (Oregon, USA). I've been involved with IC engines since high school where I won awards for a 10 cc model engine I designed and built in shop. I've built dynamometers to test 26 cc engines we used to set model boat records. However, there has been a shift toward electric power in today's model boat racing. The fastest model boat is electric powered. We used this technology to set a full sized kilometer record in 2008 for electric power that still stands. All this has been about performance, not the environment.

My lessons from Tesla ownership:
The car is quicker than nearly any other non Tesla vehicle. It's really easy to accelerate to 100 mpg while passing.
The car is a lot less expensive to operate. I didn't drive much last month, but electricity cost $41. Gasoline would have cost $148. Usually it costs twice that for electricity with equivalent gasoline cost approaching $300. On top of that there are no tune ups or oil changes.
The lifetime power use averaged 300 watt hours per mile or almost 120 mpg.
The car has needed one warranty repair that was performed at the local service center. They were wonderful and gave me a Model S loaner for the week it took to get the part.
Usable range is around 200 miles from 90% to 10% battery. That will go down some if it's cold, but that hasn't been a noticeable issue for me.
Trips are not a problem due to Tesla's Supercharger network. I need to stop every 2 to 3 hours for meals and rest stops. Charging takes around the same 15 to 30 minutes.
Normally home charging takes no time compared to an IC vehicle where you need to drive to the gas station, wait in line, and stand around to pump gas. All you do is plug the car in and wake up in the morning with a full "tank".
On top of all that, Autopilot makes driving a lot less stressful. You still need to pay attention.

Lohring Miller

 

[Steamchick]

I am enjoying this debate. I am a member of a "Model Engineering club", where some members have steam and/or electric locos to run on the 1/4mile fixed track. We give free rides to Joe Public, on high days and Holidays, maybe 20~40 days a year? Every weekend in summer, for 3 or 4 hours. A good chance to run Steam Locos. But for Passenger hauling we use battery electric locos, mostly. We have recently reduced from 2 x 4 adult bogies to 1 x 3 Adults bogie, for track and rolling stock wear and safety reasons. But notice that the batteries are lasting longer as the electrical loads are reduced.
The comparison - used to argue the right tool for the right application - is simple:
# A steam loco takes 30mins to prepare for passenger hauling. A battery electric 5 mins.
# A battery electric "goes to bed" in 5 mins, but the steam loco takes about 1 hour, to drop the fire, cool down/blow-down, clean and put to bed. So most favour electric hauling of passengers: - the others just run steam because it is so interactive (and rewarding?) - but always attracts most passengers, old and young!.
Hence Ford et al sell many "every-day cars" and relatively fewer "fun" cars.
All I can say on the "road use" of battery electrics versus "Wet" fuel IC vehicles, is that we made way from horse power to electric vehicles FIRST (1895-ish?), then chemical powered vehicles, as IC engines were developed to be practical in vehicles, and fuelling became readily available. (except on railways, where horses gave way to coal a century earlier, before electrickery was invented.).
https://classicsworld.co.uk/guides/early-electric-vehicles/120 years on... Re-fuelling electric vehicles is still seen as a BIG handicap for NON-electric vehicle users. e.g. If I visit family 170 miles away, I can easily buy petrol every 20 miles or so en route. BUT re-charging a battery car (except Tesla's huge battery) would mean an 8 hour stop at my relations house and plug it into their mains, with a trailing lead across the public footpath. Just so I can return home in a single trip. So my 360mile trips to visit Mother and friends is not an option. So I would have to factor in the cost of about 12~20 hires p.a. of IC engined cars for weekends away, with the "fuelling freedom" I currently enjoy...
A pity, as I am a fan of electric cars - but IN THE RIGHT APPLICATION. If "like many" I just used it locally (within 50 miles) and could afford a second car, then it would probably be a "bettery" electric town car. My next car is a mild hybrid... more suited to my needs. Town economy and weekend long trips = "hybrid" use!
If you can afford and want a Tesla, "well done", as you have a successful money stream, as no doubt paying so much for a car is a real luxury for the majority of Brits. We Brits typically buy cars for £20~25K... not £50~100k, and that single fact precludes electric cars for the majority.
But a good debate,
K2

 

[lohring]

My experiences are in the US. However, looking at a map of England shows quite a few Superchargers, especially in southern England. To travel to your family you would need to recharge at the Supercharger that's nearby. That would take about 30 minutes. You then should have more than enough for a return trip. It's a little inconvenient, but when I make a similar trip I leave early in the morning and eat breakfast at the charge stop.

As I recall England has 240 volt outlets standard. If you spend much time at your family's home, that should charge the car more quickly than 8 hours depending on the current available. I can go around 200 miles on a charge so you wouldn't need to add a full charge to get home.

The Chinese have several high quality electric cars that will cost a lot less than Teslas. Of course you need to add tariffs to the base price. In the US that's 25% compared to 1/10 that for Japanese cars. Tesla is starting to allow other brands to use their chargers and other companies are starting to build charging networks. My experience has been that non Tesla chargers are slow and may not work. Tesla's navigation system tells how many chargers are available and working at the next charge stop. Despite the emphasis on charge networks, the vast majority of charging will be done over night at home. That results in a big cost and time saving.

Lohring Miller

 

[rklopp]

We've had a VW eGolf since 2016. It is a great car for trips for groceries, school, work, and the airports. We just charge it overnight off a normal 120-V outlet. It can easily burn rubber. I am really getting used to not having to go to the gas station and worry about oil changes. I also like the idea that I am moving less carbon from the ground to the air that I, my kids, and grandkids will have to deal with. We looked at an original Leaf at the time, but found the Leaf cheesy and tinny compared to the VW. The latter is a lot more consistent with what I expect from a German car.

I am itching to replace my '08 BMW wagon with a longer-distance electric, but want to wait until the market settles. The BMW is starting to nickel and dime me, but is still very drivable.

 

[terryd]

........................... Despite the emphasis on charge networks, the vast majority of charging will be done over night at home. That results in a big cost and time saving.

Lohring Miller

Hi Lohring,
As for home charging many homes in the UK are terraced or flats (small 'apartments') usually with no designated parking places as houses are more expensive here than in the US due to the shortage of building land. In fact almost exactly 50% of our homes are like this. I recently spent almost a year living in Edinburgh and rented a relatively new flat and after a days work often had to park my car some distance away there are also many city centre apartments with only street parking. It would take a huge communal investment to provide suitable charging points at these properties with some method of arranging payment for the electricity used, but at the moment there is no mention of that from any authorities despite our government aiming to ban the sales of ICE vehicles from 2030. Despite there being as you say many 'supercharge points' around in the south of the UK; in our area - more rural and small town - the only public chargers available are a couple at two of our local supermarkets, none are 'superchargers' and the car parks are usually nearly full with up to 100 cars at each store.

I am a fan of electric cars but apart from the high price of EVs at the moment, often have to travel long distances and also like to tow my touring caravan for holidays in Europe as well as here in the UK which reduces range of EVs drastically so my possibilities are limited right now. I also care about climate change and have a solar panel array, my electricity is provided by a renewable energy supplier and my house is heated by an air source heat pump but I don't see EVs as a viable alternative at the moment.



Flats

Terraced

TerryD

 

[terryd]

...........
120 years on... Re-fuelling electric vehicles is still seen as a BIG handicap for NON-electric vehicle users. e.g. If I visit family 170 miles away, I can easily buy petrol every 20 miles or so en route. BUT re-charging a battery car (except Tesla's huge battery) would mean an 8 hour stop at my relations house and plug it into their mains, with a trailing lead across the public footpath. Just so I can return home in a single trip............
K2

Hi Steamchick,

And using a trailing lead across a public footpath is an open invitation for a scammer to trip and have an 'accident' in order to claim damages, and you probably can't insure against that! It's a major problem with terraced housing with no dedicated parking. Even if there were public charging facilities in those circumstances, such as the proposal to install them on lamp posts, how long before hooligans begin to think it 'fun' to unplug a row of charge cables at night leaving residents with flat batteries.
Perhaps I'm too pessimistic about human behaviour?

TerryD

 

[davidyat]

I don't know if this conversation I found on the net has been posted, so here it is. We seem to be putting the cart before the horse. Why not create a power grid to handle all the enormous electric needs of these cars, then encourage people to get out of their fossil fuel vehicles and into electric cars?

An interesting take on Electric Cars from a conversation:

“As an engineer I love electric vehicle technology However, I have been troubled by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid, and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited.

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT BE PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car...

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things, yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you will face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On a small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

 

[HMEL]

Electric car efficiencies are about 6x gas car efficiencies.
A tesla 100 kWh battery car, large, premium, is about 2100 kg with 600 km range.
Our volvo v60 allroad (4-wheel) is about 2100 kg with 900 km range.

The tesla can get charged for free at hundreds of supermarkets around spain (they make a profit at it),
or for free during the day from our 10 kW solar PV array.
About 5 hours at 0.8 cop == 40 kWh or so.
== 40% == 240 km range, for free.
Under 0.01€/kWh.

In any emergency need, the tesla can be charged at 25 kW at home, and will be full in 4 hours.
At peak charge .30€, the cost will be 30€ - solar, approx 15€.
Charging during the night, the EV costs about 2-4c/kWh, == 4 € for a full tank.
Difference about 35x.

The volvo costs 130€ to fill 65 liters.
The difference is 4.5x in favour of EV, worst case, and over 20x in favour of EV, typical use.

So cant resist doing the math-- Lets say my gas auto is 20 % efficient. Its probably higher. But a 6 times greater for an electric vehicle is 120 % efficiency. Now that number is a bit questionable. My experience is a kw cost 15 cents and its going up another 14% due to rate increases. I wonder how long it will be before these economics fail and we come to the realization it is not what they say it is. I suspect it will be when they discover they cant find enough, copper, lithium and acids to build all these cars. Not to mention when the thermodynamics catch up with the calculations.

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Terry, Of course you are right. I lived in a flat on the 5th floor, and had a garage at road level, so when doing maintenance at night needed a 50ft cable out of the window down to the garage /van where I was working... I can't see that working to charge cars from the 27th floor of a tower block!
I don't know who can legislate for the 20% or whatever of mis-behaving population... Car companies have to have super clever security to stop people taking most of the cars ad lib, and to prevent fuel theft... And people will try and steal cables to sell the copper for scrap! (They manage to steal 25kV overhead lines from railways!).
And putting charging boxes on every lamp-post will only serve 1 in 5 or 10 vehicles parked on the street.... If you can park and find a spare socket!
The original "National" idea was to do a few things:
# Reduce a country's dependence on importing/burning oil fuels, (I.E. Generate solar and wind, except at night or in calm weather... Then you use Batteries that people have in their cars!)
# Utilise people's car batteries to absorb the "surplus" electrical energy from overnight generation, now we have stopped using large steel plants, and other 24 hour industry for Base load. (We had street lighting all night - just to keep the reactors cool - until we changed to "Energy efficient" LED lights! WHO needs the lights ON when we are all off-the streets - asleep in bed?)
# Keep commuting pollution down by using stored electricity for the cars carrying Harry and Josephine to work and back, that could charge it all day charging from locally installed "Solar" generation, and at night on "cheap metered" power from utilities... (Who would invest in either of those without wanting to make a hefty profit?).
# And the "used" vehicle Batteries (<80% original storage capacity) can be re-cycled into "Domestic" batteries so your solar array can charge buy day, then light your home by night... = 5~10 years in cars, another 10~15 years in the house, while we develop commercially effective disposal/recycling of the cells).
Despite the added fire risk of cells having a thermal incident while charging or discharging when 25 years old! - And where in your apartment block can you put "your" Solar array, and storage cells?

A lot of random "market" exploitation is going on with a lack of Government "joined-up thinking". - Probably because Politicians do not "connect" ideas the way Engineers must... Politicians simply pamper to the wants of money-men and voters, without any consideration of making a "good place to live and be happy" - and take HUGE wages from us in doing so! We should burn them instead of fossil fuels! Apparently they make plenty of hot air.
K2

 

[DKGrimm]

Interesting to read all these comments. Diverse opinions, to be sure, but I get a sense that everybody has a pretty good idea of the plusses and minuses. I leased and drove a Nissan Leaf for three full years in the midcontinent US environment. I loved the car in many ways: fun to drive, practical for in-town use, cheap to run, no oil changes, etc., etc. But I don't own it any more. A couple of main reasons: First, trips of 500+ miles in rural US are just not possible, both because of lack of recharge stations and because of the huge time waste to sit and charge if you can find one. Second, when the temperature falls below 0 F the car is just not a reasonable way to get around. Range falls below half. And the straw that broke the camel's back, no useful cabin heat from the heat pump cabin heater, and totally undriveable in any kind of freezing rain because of lack of windshield defroster at that temperature. I reluctantly turned the car in at the end of the lease and bought one with really good gas mileage and a heater.

 

[user 48634]

Government will never give up the tax revenue it gets from fossil fuel usage. As more people go electric, government will find ways of maintaining the revenue stream probably by a tax on EV recharge.

 

[Bentwings]

i only had two 6 week excursion to Central Europe . I saw exactly what you describe . Your picture of sidewalk filled with cars we had a guy park a 1/4 million dollar Ferrari’ right in front of our door to the hotel. EV WERENT EVEN A DREAM THEN however I can see that a 100 foot supercharger cord would be a real problem to roll up when it’s pouring rain or blowing up a storm. I live in a small senior home and even a short cord would be a problem . When it’s -25 deg f and a foot of snow it certainly would not be fun trying to cool up a stiff cord each home does not have big yards enough space for two cars that’s it I have a 6?car parking lot in front of my place but how would I ever get that black stuff snake rolled up in the morning then un roll it at night . It’s hard enough to plug in a block heater I used to have a small generator for my big truck but that was a pain to move qaround too plus it needed to be inside in the winter The areas we stayed in nearly everyone rode bikes. We though this very unusual, but we think nothing of spending an hour in traffic in the morning then another to go home . Frankly I don’t think EV IS THE WAY Of the future I think this green new deal is nonsense . It simply does not follow science there were local smog yes but ironically I YHINK diesel caused this, and I’m a diesel fan diesel emissions have been dramatically reduced I just saw a test of new Ford EV truck towing a 6000 pound RV trailer vs new chev truck towing identical trailer , both traveling the same route and distance . It was about a wash cost wise as the supercharge RV cost more than gas time wise the chev was far ahead as his gas stop was about 10 min max where EV. Was hours GM is on track to use lease batteries on new EV WHEN CHARGE LEVEL GETS TOO LOW YOU SIMPLY GOBTO YHE DEALER AND SWAP BATTERIES if “gas” stations and cars are made so you can just swap out charged batteries then EV. WILL BECOME MORE PRACTICAL however the fact that the electric power has to come from somewhere. So instead of nat gas or coal neuclneuclear power has to be developed your distant neighbor France has lots of his . Locally the big plant was shut down several years ago . I go to a small grocery store they have ten supercharger stations . All are covered with weather bags. Not in service my daughter in law works in a large grocery store the charg cost to use the chargers is over ten times home electric power so EV is not imaginary power to measure costs you need to look at cost per mile driven. I used to keep excel spread sheets for all my cars and truck including my street hot rod . By far my one ton diesel dual heavy duty truck was the lowest cost per mile . I gave the truck to my son who has restored it. It has 450000 miles with virtually no major repair cost . I lost a wheel bearing and spindle so that was 3-400$ 100k miles on tires . It still has the original rear brakes gets 18-20 mpg towing 12k pound trailer easy new trucks are lucky to get that not towing .
Hi Lohring,
As for home charging many homes in the UK are terraced or flats (small 'apartments') usually with no designated parking places as houses are more expensive here than in the US due to the shortage of building land. In fact almost exactly 50% of our homes are like this. I recently spent almost a year living in Edinburgh and rented a relatively new flat and after a days work often had to park my car some distance away there are also many city centre apartments with only street parking. It would take a huge communal investment to provide suitable charging points at these properties with some method of arranging payment for the electricity used, but at the moment there is no mention of that from any authorities despite our government aiming to ban the sales of ICE vehicles from 2030. Despite there being as you say many 'supercharge points' around in the south of the UK; in our area - more rural and small town - the only public chargers available are a couple at two of our local supermarkets, none are 'superchargers' and the car parks are usually nearly full with up to 100 cars at each store.

I am a fan of electric cars but apart from the high price of EVs at the moment, often have to travel long distances and also like to tow my touring caravan for holidays in Europe as well as here in the UK which reduces range of EVs drastically so my possibilities are limited right now. I also care about climate change and have a solar panel array, my electricity is provided by a renewable energy supplier and my house is heated by an air source heat pump but I don't see EVs as a viable alternative at the moment.


View attachment 139115
Flats


View attachment 139116
Terraced

TerryD

 

[Shopgeezer]

All the detailed cost calculations above only use the pump price of gas in the cost per mile for gas cars. There is no consideration of the costs to society of the CO2 produced. As the island nations of the Pacific have recently told us, this will be countless billions of dollars. Strapping on blinders and only seeing the sharpened pencil for costs isn’t getting at the problem. Of course there will be huge technical and societal challenges. Let’s role up our sleeves and get at them.

 

[dungeness58]

As an owner of a 2014 fully electric Leaf, I have to comment on the reply by Davidyat.

1: WA State charges EV owners $150.00 per year for road tax, which, at our electricity rate in WA State, is more than the electricity we buy to run the car per year.

2: I, as many have, calculated the cost of electricity to operate an EV. It is quite low. Why?, because there are little losses in an electric car. The Leaf, as with most EV cars, gets 4.5 miles per kWh of electricity. The national average for electricity is $0.13 per kWh. So you are looking right at $0.03 per mile. That is 3 cents. So yes, the REAL cost has been discussed.

3: Because 75% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is lost to heat, electricity is the most efficient way to power a car. After climbing up a 5200 foot mountain, the motor on the Leaf is barely warm. Very little losses, and did I mention that we get back all that potential energy on the drive down as the motor charges the battery?

4: There are many chargers that can be installed in a home. We have a 240V 20 amp Level 2 bought on ebay for 200 bucks that charges at 18 miles per hour. Fine for home use. Level 2 chargers are up to 70 amps for more money. The average home has a 200 amp service.

5: Electrical infrastructure... The idea that the grid can't handle the additional electrical increase is nonsense. I track our usage and about 8% of our home electrical usage goes into charging our car, which is driven a lot. Electrical companies would be more than delighted to have to increase capacity to sell more electricity.

6: They are called wind turbines, not windmills. The are not expensive but cheap. Wind in the US has passed up Hydro. See chart below.

7: Your "Eric test drove the Chevy Volt" is a version of a story that has long been passes around and is full of intentional mistakes. Here is one big one. No one pays $1.16 per kWh for electricity. The author of this story has moved the decimal place. It should be $0.116, which would be close to average price in the US.

8: Why would ICE drivers complain about people driving EV's? We EV drivers are reducing the demand of gasoline which will reduce the price of gasoline for them.

9: Oil is not used to make electricity in the US, well, a bit. Really. Please study this chart. Flowcharts
Of note is the small amount of oil that is used to make electricity, think Hawaii. Also the minuscule amount of electricity used for transportation. I thought it was a mistake so contacted LLNL and asked it that included all of the electric trains and busses. They said yes. Electricity is very efficient because of the low losses, both in generation, transmission, and use.

My view is this. Do everything we can with electricity, save the oil for air travel, coal for antique steam engines, and maybe save gas for cooking.

 

[ajoeiam]

As an owner of a 2014 fully electric Leaf, I have to comment on the reply by Davidyat.

1: WA State charges EV owners $150.00 per year for road tax, which, at our electricity rate in WA State, is more than the electricity we buy to run the car per year.

2: I, as many have, calculated the cost of electricity to operate an EV. It is quite low. Why?, because there are little losses in an electric car. The Leaf, as with most EV cars, gets 4.5 miles per kWh of electricity. The national average for electricity is $0.13 per kWh. So you are looking right at $0.03 per mile. That is 3 cents. So yes, the REAL cost has been discussed.

Hmmmmmmm - - - - and you haven't noticed that both the fees for consumption and the flat fees on electricity have been growing - - - in my experience by far more than inflation amounts - - - its called a total lack of competition and monopoly systems love their flat fees (its a great profit stream!)

3: Because 75% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is lost to heat, electricity is the most efficient way to power a car. After climbing up a 5200 foot mountain, the motor on the Leaf is barely warm. Very little losses, and did I mention that we get back all that potential energy on the drive down as the motor charges the battery?

Losses are actually higher than 75% but then not all of the losses are heat there are a few other factors there (heat is the major loss though). I prefer diesel engines - - this point showing one of the major reasons. Diesels are, imo anyway, far easier to trouble shoot issues on.

You would not be able to harvest "all that potential energy" - - - battery charging systems are never 100% efficient.

4: There are many chargers that can be installed in a home. We have a 240V 20 amp Level 2 bought on ebay for 200 bucks that charges at 18 miles per hour. Fine for home use. Level 2 chargers are up to 70 amps for more money. The average home has a 200 amp service.

5: Electrical infrastructure... The idea that the grid can't handle the additional electrical increase is nonsense. I track our usage and about 8% of our home electrical usage goes into charging our car, which is driven a lot. Electrical companies would be more than delighted to have to increase capacity to sell more electricity.

Hmmmm - - - I have read far too many studies regarding the extreme fragility of the grid as we have it today.
Just last summer we had a major wind storm blow though, our electrical entity specializes in ignoring preventative maintenance so a couple sections of main line were blown over. Posts within 5 miles of me. We were some of the fortunate ones - - - -we were only without power some 18 hours. Others within less than 3 miles of us were without power for some 44 hours - - - - that's getting to be a serious outage - - - - an electric vehicle in that time becomes a huge liability very very quickly!

6: They are called wind turbines, not windmills. The are not expensive but cheap. Wind in the US has passed up Hydro. See chart below.

Might not be too expensive in your terms - - - have you ever looking into the costs for siting?
The permitting process is crazy complicated and expensive!!!

7: Your "Eric test drove the Chevy Volt" is a version of a story that has long been passes around and is full of intentional mistakes. Here is one big one. No one pays $1.16 per kWh for electricity. The author of this story has moved the decimal place. It should be $0.116, which would be close to average price in the US.

8: Why would ICE drivers complain about people driving EV's? We EV drivers are reducing the demand of gasoline which will reduce the price of gasoline for them.

By that logic gasoline should also cost less because the refinery has been long paid for. (Most refineries are either approaching their terminal design date or are past it. There have been no new major builds in a very long time. )

9: Oil is not used to make electricity in the US, well, a bit. Really. Please study this chart. Flowcharts
Of note is the small amount of oil that is used to make electricity, think Hawaii. Also the minuscule amount of electricity used for transportation. I thought it was a mistake so contacted LLNL and asked it that included all of the electric trains and busses. They said yes. Electricity is very efficient because of the low losses, both in generation, transmission, and use.

Every back up generator does NOT run on electricity.
For better information on the costs of using electricity for transportation I would opine that you need to investigate what is being done in Europe where there is a serious amount of electrically operated transportation.

My view is this. Do everything we can with electricity, save the oil for air travel, coal for antique steam engines, and maybe save gas for cooking.

California has said not to gas - - - - for anything.
Of course they buy their electricity from anywhere else but local and then who cares how that is made.

Presently there is a shift moving the coal plants to firing from natural gas.
Not really an improvement imo - - - -but its a cheap move for the electricity generators.
Coal can be burnt so that it produces even less pollution (of any kind afaik than even the best gas generation systems).
Look into ultra super critical power plants - - - - the technology has been available for some over 50 years already - - - have you heard of its use?

Electrical could work for automotive use - - - still more than a few issues though.
For heavy use - - freight and such - - - still not even close to usable. That largely because rail freight has become almost incidental in use (and far too expensive!).
There are a lot of issues that still need to be worked out and as quickly as the researchers are working - - - - well the results just aren't piling up - - - at least not that I can see.

 

[dungeness58]

The cost of electricity in the US has been increasing, but just look at what it was per kWh decades ago and what it is now. Not your bill, the rate per kWh. Compare that to your house, car, food, etc. Electricity is a bargain.

Well of course not, there are losses in charging back the battery, but the losses are just small.

Backup generators are not used much. Look at the chart, oil use to make electricity is very very small. The historic LLNL charts can be found on that site and in the past, more oil was used but never very much.

Yes, events such as hurricanes and ice storms can damage power lines. Hopefully you saw it coming and charged you EV to 100%. Before hurricanes we would fill our tanks too because without power, stations can't pump. Now some are installing backup power. Bet those lines would be long.

Texas has the highest wind generation, three times that of the next state Iowa, then OK, KS and IL. Wind turbine installation is cheap and fast compared to building a coal, gas, or nuke plant. The farmers in TX love them as the checks just roll in. There is a lifespan, but that is only the blades, hub, and generator. Just for a moment, think about the bearing for each blade. Wind Energy Installed Capacity by State

I had to go look it up. The electrical use in the EU for transportation is higher than the US. A whopping 0.94%. I too thought it was higher. European Energy Flows Sankey – Sankey Diagrams

Should I get a Mach-E or wait for the fully electric Vette?

 

[Bentwings]

well you see the issues of EV ESPECIALLY IN THE COLD ZONE Ii disagrees-disagree on others seeing the issues. Most have no idea of manufacturing as they have never seen the inside of auto making . I’ve been there been part of the engineering teams designed mfg equipment studied production costs an records operated the machinery. You have seen the road costs and tip of ice berg problems . The only way EV will be possible is nuclear energy all else fails the earth can well take care of itself . There has not been a climate issue since volcanoes of 539 AD earth has recovered from that and half a dozen other eruptions . What China is doing will completely negate anything we can do add Russia and there is a negative effect . Why should we pay for their mistakes? Take care of us first. They can go to He double chopsticks in a hand bag. Bring our mfg back to the home land We can get along just fine . I see Ford just raised the price on their new pickup trucks many thousands of dollars to cover mfg costs . Trucks will now be 100 grand more
All the detailed cost calculations above only use the pump price of gas in the cost per mile for gas cars. There is no consideration of the costs to society of the CO2 produced. As the island nations of the Pacific have recently told us, this will be countless billions of dollars. Strapping on blinders and only seeing the sharpened pencil for costs isn’t getting at the problem. Of course there will be huge technical and societal challenges. Let’s role up our sleeves and get at them.

 

[lohring]

https://www.realmicentral.com/2022/...come-the-two-best-selling-cars-in-california/Change is coming whether you like it or not.

Lohring Miller