Drilling Very Small Holes

[krypto]

I just use this little thing I found at a yard sale.

Yes, sensitive drill presses are nice, but do you only have one?

 

[Zeb]

Yes, holding drill bits is one thing collets are good at.
Here's an ER-11 collet on an extension shaft held by an Albrecht 1/2" chuck. This setup was purchased for drilling in tight spaces as shown.

I wish I had your problem when I attempted the same operation on that same engine (Sherline).

Someone may have mentioned already, I wonder if clamping a block in the lathe toolpost and drilling a hole into it from the collet end would work for the drill aligning surface. I would still feed by hand, but at least I would only be worried about spindle bearing misalignment.

 

[hanermo3]

Endless excellent posts on this thread.

My customers (engraving) used to make, yes make, end mills as small as 0.04 mm when I worked as the sales manager for Haas Spain.
And drill holes in the 0.1 mm and smaller sizes (another customer, making watches).


It´s just really hard to do well.
Like e.g. very accurate ER11 collets, repeatable and reliable and able to hold the full ER range while maintaining concentricity.
See Iscar, ISO10,ISO20 tooling, see schunk, big kaiser.

Heat shrink collets and tools used to be the gold standard, down to near 1 micron, um, 0.001 mm concentricity.


A:
It´s really really hard to make very small collets and or spindles holding smallish collets to high concentricity.

1.
Many pro users have made custom "ghetto" heat shrink tools, simply ream the hole for the drill undersize 0.010-0.02 mm, heat with suitable propane while spinning, drop the drill / tool in.
Finish by grinding the end diameter, while spinning in repeatable spindle of choice or on hard or soft (brass, bronze, alu) v blocks.

2.
Yes, you can grind by hand (file, nail file) on V blocks and end up with about 0.001 mm TIR.
Any hard substrate, so the hand grinder juck knocks off the high spots, mostly.

3.
A proper japanese Nakanish NSK spindle as grinder will just make a vastly neater tool - and incidently would be what You want to drill the hole with in the first place.
You wont like the price.
The tool is unbeliavably good.

Incidentally, I may get one for me, as a gift to myself, knowing I am spending many thousands just because I want to.


4.
A reamed hole in a holder with industrial epoxy of choice will make a perfectly servicable tool, if you are drilling small stuff and not get the holder above 100 C, aka hot.

--
All above are propably useless/overkill unless you remove the chuck and hold directly in the taper.

And the spindle taper is probably not much good,
and the spindle rgidity is probably not much good,
and the spindle tir is probably not much good,
and very probably spindle tir not too repeatable across the spindle travel, in any drill press, and in most-any small mill.

Suggestions 1-4 are for ideas and have been used by endless people in endless industries, for a long time, with good success.

5. Drill bushings.
Google it.

 

[Steamchick]

I can even reverse the work piece and tailstock chuck on my Unimat SL. Does the same job.
K2

 

[IanN]

I used to drill quite a few small holes while still restoring clocks and watches. Fortunately most of the time it was in the end of a shaft / arbor, so the work was spinning in the lathe and the drill bit was hand held in a pin vise and allowed to advance into the work. When I had to do a small hole in a mill and no sufficiently concentric tool holding was at hand, a blank faced piece of rod was held in the lathe and drilled to make a larger shank. Once a shank of 1/8 or larger was loctited to the drill, existing tool holding options could be used. Having the work spinning tends to deliver a nice straight hole.

In the lathe, straight flute solid carbide drills gave the best results, while in a mill the chip extraction provided by a twist drill is beneficial. Frequent removal of the drill to clear chips is a must, particularly when drilling to 4X the drill diameter or greater. Typically when repivotting a clock arbor the depth is 5X the drill diameter or more.

Naturally the official answer would be to purchase an Albrecht 15J0 and a matching arbor, or a nice clean Cameron precision drill press, but those options will leave at least a moderately sized smoking crater in your wallet or credit card...

I second Stan's observation that it is best to drill small (or deep) holes by rotating the work rather than rotating the drill. There is no need to use very high rotational speed.

Below are links to some youtube videos showing the process of drilling by hand in the lathe (appologies for the unscripted appearance of the cat and the little kid from next door who always turns up when he hears the distinctive sound of my lathe).

1) The graver I use to catch a centre on a "normal" sized lathe.

2) Catching the centre

3) Drilling the hole

4) The finished hole

Ian

 

[olympic]

Yes, sensitive drill presses are nice, but do you only have one?

View attachment 144192

Yeah. Pretty miserable

Yes, sensitive drill presses are nice, but do you only have one?

View attachment 144192

Well, it's not my fault. That was a pretty miserable yard sale.

 

[timo_gross]

I use ER11 collets for smallish holes no issue. My DIY experimental "sensitive Drill press" has an ER11 straight shank holder that I bought and normal low cost radial bearings.

The smallest ER11 collet I could find was for 1 mm diameter, so really small drills require some adapter. Or 1/8" shank PCB drills.

Those smaller 1/8" shank drills, they break if you look at them, do not like to be clamped in a 3.5 mm collet, they always dive down and break as soon as I try to tighten the nut, or I snap them off with my finger trying to prevent the drill from falling ( Too many losses during handling ).
So I purchased one 1/8" collet extra which did help quite a bit.

Most of it was experimenting. Peck and clean and taking time, makes lots of sense, also now I usually use a drill vise because the small drills do not like it if you move the work.

With a bit of patience the ER11 collets can be bumped around to run more true. I do not go crazy with clamping (not much torque on the drill anyway) a small drift on the shank or nut. ( I saw it on YT; and it works if you are patient and do not knock the drill off by accident)
Sometimes it also helps just to loosen the nut, rotate the drill and collet a bit and tighten the nut again few times until it runs more true.

Considering cost of cheap ER holder with collets, I now have a hole collection.
Convenient for milling machine and Lathe for tool ( drills taps endmills ) and work holding.

Greetings Timo

 

[timo_gross]

I guess I'm just wondering if there are any downsides to to this method - other than needing to change collets to handle different sizes. Yes, I was looking for the convenience of a keyless chuck but I am retired and could manage to find the few minutes needed to change collets. In my dream world (where I do most of my planning) I was even thinking of attempting to design a spring loaded sliding device with a collet chuck like the "sensitive drill feeds" use.

I use sometimes extra nuts, that spare me to take the collets and tool apart. (Provided you do not buy "a Cameron Micro drill with Albrecht chuck" ) One you could give it a try to get some extra nuts to make change more easy.

 

[stanstocker]

Greetings folks!

Timo's nicely made miniature drill press reminded me that Jerry Howell designed several gadgets that might be of interest. A miniature drill press, a micro drill press, and a high(er) speed mill spindle accessory. I know Jerry used to drill the 0.006 inch orifice in his propane jets with the micro drill press. He and I were talking about small hole drilling and I bought quite a few of his plan sets way back at an early Cabin Fever.

I imagine there are numerous build threads around related to Jerry's engines, but he did some other interesting things too.

Sadly Jerry is gone, but his family continues to sell his plans and for a number of the plan sets the special and odd parts needed (bearings, graphite slugs, the stuff you don't find at the corner shop).

http://model-engine-plans.com/engineplans/index.htm

 

[timo_gross]

Greetings folks!

Timo's nicely made miniature drill press reminded me that Jerry Howell designed several gadgets that might be of interest. A miniature drill press, a micro drill press, and a high(er) speed mill spindle accessory. I know Jerry used to drill the 0.006 inch orifice in his propane jets with the micro drill press. He and I were talking about small hole drilling and I bought quite a few of his plan sets way back at an early Cabin Fever.

I imagine there are numerous build threads around related to Jerry's engines, but he did some other interesting things too.

Sadly Jerry is gone, but his family continues to sell his plans and for a number of the plan sets the special and odd parts needed (bearings, graphite slugs, the stuff you don't find at the corner shop).

http://model-engine-plans.com/engineplans/index.htm

Thank you,

on older photos everything looks newer, incl. myself. (drill press is getting rusty, maybe I have to paint the thing)

Under the link you posted in the "Attachment and Tool" section I found plans. Mini Drill press and Micro drill press.
Resulting Question are:

• What kind of chuck is suggested in the plans? (tempted to have a look!)
• Do I really need another small drill press?
• Did anybody built one?

Greetings Timo

 

[BobsModels]

I have a Dumore that is outfitted with x-y table, light, magnifying glass, speed control, depth controlled table that has balance weights so it moves only if dial is turned. It has a magnetic chuck that allows you to center a bit for zero runnout. Smallest it goes down to is a #71 (.026). I made a special insert that let me go down to a #80 (.013). I normally just use the jacobs chuck that is on it, sometimes switch to an albrecht.

I think that collet attachment could easily be reproduced.

Bob

 

[stanstocker]

Thank you,

on older photos everything looks newer, incl. myself. (drill press is getting rusty, maybe I have to paint the thing)

Under the link you posted in the "Attachment and Tool" section I found plans. Mini Drill press and Micro drill press.
Resulting Question are:

• What kind of chuck is suggested in the plans? (tempted to have a look!)
• Do I really need another small drill press?
• Did anybody built one?

Greetings Timo

Sorry to take a bit of time to get back, needed to go read over the plans and see. For the micro drill press Jerry suggested the chuck be chosen based on smallest diameter to be drilled. If using numbered bits up to 60 or similarly huge drills the smallest Jacobs chucks could be a good choice as they will usually only have a few thou (0.001 inch, not microns) runout. If going to smaller sizes, the next step was to fabricate a spindle to use a small high quality pin vise selected for minimal run out. Naturally, the final choice and most expensive was the Albrecht 15J0 I'd mentioned before, if drilling smaller than 0.010 inch holes is a regular thing. I imagine that Rohm or other EU and continental makers offer chucks of similar quality, just other than Rohm I'm not familiar with them.

The larger drill plans called out an Albrecht chuck that could take 1/4 inch bits, think it was a #65 on the plans.

Do you NEED another small press? Probably not

I have not built either of these drills, although I did play around with the ones Jerry had built and had at his booth probably 20 years ago. Because most of my tiny drilling was into the end of spinning shafts with the drill held in a pin vise there hasn't been a pressing need for such as gizmo. I do have a precision small drill press from Jet with an Albrecht chuck that needs some work. I've successfully cross drilled repaired minute shaft ends on French clocks with drills in the #70's sizes using the sensitive drilling attachment Sherline sells for use with their mills that have a 3/4-16 spindle. These are provided with a good quality small Jacobs chuck, which has been satisfactory for most all of my needs. For nuts level stuff I do have a 15J0 on a 3/8 straight shank that can be used in the ER16 spindle on my smallest CNC mill, but because almost all of my work was one off stuff for clock restoration this has been a seldom used option.

Hope this is useful,
Stan

 

[krypto]

I have a Dumore that is outfitted with x-y table, light, magnifying glass, speed control, depth controlled table that has balance weights so it moves only if dial is turned. It has a magnetic chuck that allows you to center a bit for zero runnout. Smallest it goes down to is a #71 (.026). I made a special insert that let me go down to a #80 (.013). I normally just use the jacobs chuck that is on it, sometimes switch to an albrecht.

Wow, that's a little jewel! Do you know the history behind the x-y table setup for the Dumore? I never have seen one like that before. Your Dumore looks similar to mine so it's around 50 years old according to the factory. My Dumore was a bit of a fixer-upper, but it works fine and I bought it for dirt cheap. Probably olympic got his Cameron cheap as well at the yard sale. Your average Joe doesn't know much about these little drill presses and prices them cheaply when they are selling off grandpa's tools.

For the Dumore, I usually use it for cross-drilling rods (v-notch in the fixture plate) or fixture work.

Here I'm aligning a fixture plate for drilling 3D printer nozzles in off sizes.

And now a nozzle has the desired .3mm hole.

 

[2tinker]

This is my solution, the Dremel has so little runout that I have drilled 0.5mm holes in 3mm brass without a problem. The table lifts with the workpiece held in a small vice . The stand is made from one of the horrible cheap drill press thing and the post is shimmed vertical to the baseplate in both axis.

 

[timo_gross]

This is my solution, the Dremel has so little runout that I have drilled 0.5mm holes in 3mm brass without a problem. The table lifts with the workpiece held in a small vice . The stand is made from one of the horrible cheap drill press thing and the post is shimmed vertical to the baseplate in both axis.

Modifying the existing drill device is also not a bad idea.


Someone wanted to sell one of these to me. (haha no idea why ?)
They say "pipe diameter" 0.0078-0.118 inches. What size hole will result in it, I do not know.
Interesting concept, but maybe a little bit overkill.....

Greetings Timo

 

[Steamchick]

Hey Krypto, that looks a really neat set-up. I drill 0.3, 0.25. and 0.2mm drills, using the carbide drills with 3mm shank. But have always used the lathe approach of rotating work and stationary drill bit.
What speed do you use with your smallest size bit?
K2

 

[Steamchick]

Spotted these...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265910391299?hash=item3de97e9203:g:4KkAAOSwqrpjNjNAhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/165915423717?hash=item26a15473e5:g:KzwAAOSwcfFj2SNpK2

 

[MRA]

View attachment 144308This is my solution, the Dremel has so little runout that I have drilled 0.5mm holes in 3mm brass without a problem. The table lifts with the workpiece held in a small vice . The stand is made from one of the horrible cheap drill press thing and the post is shimmed vertical to the baseplate in both axis.

View attachment 144307View attachment 144309

I really like that way of limiting the feed, with a counterbalance. I wouldn't have thought of that. And making something useful out of plastic crap is very satisfying!

Edit to add: this makes me remember something in a cabinet of odds and ends relating to Gardner engines at our museum. It's a drill bit, but the business end (which protrudes from a shank something like 3/16") is so small, I can barely see it - perhaps it's 10 thou or so. Attached is a paper label with lovely copperplate handwriting in pencil, which goes something like 'this bit has drilled 14,309 holes in such-and-such diesel injector, and is now undersize; still suitable for type **** injectors'.

I must find the key to the cabinet and take a photo of it. The 'girls' (the old fellas tell me all the injectors were drilled by women, with an alleged sensitive touch) sat at desks with a small jig in front of them to hold and index the nozzle blank, and a motor-chuck unit which moved in horizontally on a lever. There's a picture of the setup in this cabinet too, I think.

 

[krypto]

Hey Krypto, that looks a really neat set-up. I drill 0.3, 0.25. and 0.2mm drills, using the carbide drills with 3mm shank. But have always used the lathe approach of rotating work and stationary drill bit.
What speed do you use with your smallest size bit?

I don't use a speed controller (Variac or Triac) with the Dumore so it's always running full speed: 17000 RPM. If you look on the speed & feeds chart, this is actually on the slow side.

I thought I posted this video on this site, but maybe it was the other one.



Drilling the .3mm hole.

 

[BobsModels]

Wow, that's a little jewel! Do you know the history behind the x-y table setup for the Dumore? I never have seen one like that before. Your Dumore looks similar to mine so it's around 50 years old according to the factory.

I think these were available in the 1950's. I have attached fliers that were in the tool box that was built into the custom cabinet that housed Dumore.

Bob