Copyright Question

[kcmillin]

Awhile back I was asked if I could make an engine for someone to purchase. Specifically, the Poppin Flame Eater. The plans for this engine are available free online, and it is not the plans I am making but the engine in which the plans describe. As I understand it the plans are copyrighted but the finished engine (or whatever) is not under copyright.

My question is: Once we build an engine from plans which are copyright protected, Is it ours to do with what we want, I.E. Sell it? This is assuming that all design credit is given to the Author, and not advertised as one's own, even if slight modifications were made to the original design.


Kel

 

[Bill Gruby]

I am not an expert on this by any means. I used to build model airplanes for people from copyrighted plans. The plans were copyrighted not what I built. From what you describe I would say the same applies. You cannot offer the plans for resale but I believe this does not apply to the item built. I need to add here that I never built the same plane twice. Only once per plan. The market was never that great.

"Bill Gruby"

 

[Stan]

Are you not describing the difference between a copyright and a patent?

 

[b.lindsey]

Not a lawyer here by any means, but I suspect the answer lies somewhere in the issue of commercial use. Is making one or two things from copyrighted plans a commercial venture? Don't know. But what if any of us were to take someones copyrighted plans and start mass producing them for sale? That would seem to be a more obvious infirngement of the author's/designer's intellectual property. The question is, as what point is that line crossed...1...10...100...or 10,000? Great question though.

Bill

 

[mu38&Bg#]

That's like saying a patented concept is patented, but the part you made from the patent wasn't. That doesn't fly.

The way I understand it is that plans under copyright allow you to build one example of such item for yourself. Who is going to catch you for making more than one for yourself? Probably nobody. If you take a copyrighted plan and begin a production line, you are breaking the rules of copyright. Making a part from a drawing is considered derivative work. Making money on such would be against the law as it does not fall under fair use. Even giving them away would be considered a loss to the copyright holder and illegal.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.pdf

You might rephrase your involvement. You were hired to do machining to prints your customer provided. You did not build an engine for resale.

 

[GWRdriver]

Once we build an engine from plans which are copyright protected, Is it ours to do with what we want, I.E. Sell it? This is assuming that all design credit is given to the Author . . . Kel

You don't even have to do that. What you can't do is copy the work of others, a design in this case, and sell it for personal gain. Even so there's not enough money changing hands to make it worth while for the author to pursue legal action. Some of us just try to do the right thing and not steal people's work. For a long time there was an informal understanding in the model engineering world which was that the purchase of a set of plans conveyed a license to build a single example of whatever the plans described. You can then do with that example whatever you want. If you want to build another example of the same model you owed the author for another set of drawings. This is still the case although very few in the ME world still observe this convention. In most states in the US this convention is more than just a courtesy, it's backed by law when it involves such things as architectural and engineering designs.

 

[gbritnell]

I find this thread kind of interesting. I have read time and time again about this subject with many people giving their point of view.
I typed in 'applying for a copyright' and read what needs to be done to accomplish this. It says that the forms can be filed by mail or electronically and that along with the required fee a copy of the original work needs to be submitted to complete this process.
The question now comes to mind, how many people that make drawings for engines actually apply for a copyright and if they did wouldn't they put that somewhere on their drawing for all the world to see? I haven't and really don't plan on doing so.
From what I read a work is either copyrighted or it isn't.
Yes I know all about being a gentleman with moral values and not buying a set of plans, making copies and reselling them but it seems legally unless you actually go through the process then you can't claim 'foul' if someone buys your plans and resells 'that' set. Sure if he makes a lot of them for sale that would be unscrupulous.
Now to the point of making an engine from my plans and selling multiple copies of said engine. As I read it the plans can be copyrighted, not the engine, unless you want to build one and send it to the copyright office never to see it again.
I'm not an expert on this subject, heck I only know what I read and I read the posted description of a copyright and as is the case with most legal documents I don't fully understand it.
The bottom line as I see it, if I sold a set of drawings to someone and he decides to make multiple copies of that engine, and sell them, how do I have any right to those engines? I didn't have a hand in building them and I did sell the rights to whoever bought the drawings. I have never bought a set of drawings that stated somewhere on the sheets 'only one engine can be built from these plans'. Is this another one of those gentlemanly things?
I don't want to infringe on anyone's work as I don't want anyone to infringe on mine but until someone can give me a definitive answer about making and selling mulitiple copies from something that can't be copyrighted (the finished product) then I'll just assume that they can.
gbritnell

 

[JorgensenSteam]

I put a copyright on my drawings for several reasons.

1. If I don't, then someone can copy my drawings, copyright them, and them I can't use my own drawings.

2. I want all of my drawings to remain open-source and free to all modelers all over the world, forever.

3. I am not in the modeling business to make a buck, I am in it to build engines, and encourage others to build engines. If I try and make a buck, it becomes work, and I don't want that.

I have uploaded several sets of drawings to the "Downloads" page on HMEM, and anyone can copy, use and distribute my drawings as long as they are for personal use only, and not sold or used for commercial purposes.

If someone makes 10 copies of engines from one of my drawings, and sells them on ebay, what the heck. If someone makes 1,000 copies of my engines and sells them anywhere, I would consider this a commercial use, and would ask for a share of the profits.

Do I run around checking who does what with my drawings? No.

I would encourage everyone to publish your drawings on HMEM whenever possible and share them for free for non-commercial purposes.

It is the right thing to do for the hobby, and shows support and appreciation for the guys who run HMEM.

I make my own drawings because I got tired of paying for other drawings.

There needs to be a few freebies in the world.
My drawings are payback to other modelers for the encouragement and support I have gotten in the past, and continue to get.

 

[kcmillin]

Thanks For all the input Guys.

It seems to be one of those topics.

Lets Say that I modify the plans. A few months back I made a double version of the Poppin Flame Eater, this strayed from the plans quite a bit, and there was a decent amount of my own design mixed in with the basic structure of the original.

Where is the line here?

I think we need an International Copyright/Patent Lawyer to weigh in :big:

Kel

 

[mu38&Bg#]

If someone makes 10 copies of engines from one of my drawings, and sells them on ebay, what the heck. If someone makes 1,000 copies of my engines and sells them anywhere, I would consider this a commercial use, and would ask for a share of the profits.

Unfortunately the law doesn't give you this freedom of discriminating who you prosecute. It's none or all. This goes for patents as well.

One does not need to apply for copyright protection. Copyright exists upon creation. You do get some benefits by registering. http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf

I was contemplating redrawing a set of drawings for a model engine a while back but have decided against it. They don't seem to be available but the last person to have handled them is still around. I tried to contact them to get status of the product, but didn't get far. So I've done nothing with it.

Copyright in the model hobbies has become a huge issue in the past ten years. Model railroad companies were hit hard. It's hard to find any licensed Boeing model airplanes and they'll come after you if you don't license. BMW basically doesn't license any products so there are few models of them.

Greg

 

[Cedge]

Greg
You are correct. Copyright is applicable from the moment of the creation of an intellectual property. The law does not require posting a copyright notice, anymore, but doing so aids in prosecution as a means of proving intent. Ie... the violator was notified/informed that the material was copyrighted, but took it anyway.

It's a good idea to police your copyrighted materials, especially on line. Once it has effectively entered the public domain, your copyrights may not offer much protection. I've lost a few animations and a number of graphics to the public domain , simply because they were copied and used in so many places that it could no longer be policed. I've learned a few hard lessons about what I put online, along the way. These days, I only put things up that I don't mind being used by others.

Steve