Buying a lathe

[coulsea]

getting back to a question in the original post about the same machine from different sources, I have heard that some of the companies like grizzly in usa and HF in aus get to pick their machines in the factory and the ones that are rejected will be sold under many different names. so they may look identical and you may be lucky and get a good one but you may get a dud and your stuck with it.

 

[Richard Hed]

Richard,

Have you looked at Precision Matthew's 14-40 gunsmith's lathe? It seems to meet your requirements. If someone else mentioned this lathe. I apologize.
https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1440e-lb/
George

I considered this till I read the price. Out of my league by about 1500$

 

[L98fiero]

getting back to a question in the original post about the same machine from different sources, I have heard that some of the companies like grizzly in usa and HF in aus get to pick their machines in the factory and the ones that are rejected will be sold under many different names. so they may look identical and you may be lucky and get a good one but you may get a dud and your stuck with it.

About 15 years ago I bought a flatbed CNC from a local machine tool dealer that was made by a major Chinese company, the same machine, from the same factory was also being sold by the 600 Group as a Colchester or Harrison and were supposed to be good lathes. The difference was, as I heard it, was that the 600 Group had an inspector at the plant full time, I'm pretty certain that wasn't the case with the company I bought mine from, the list of problems was two pages long, the control never worked properly, it kept breaking the high/low speed change mechanism and many other problems, mostly just silly, easy to do right the first time problems.

 

[Michael Rosenbauer]

In China it is the same then enywhere else. What you pay, you get. And some machines are looking same but the quality is different.
For example HOLZMANN and BERNADO and OPTIMUM are the main dealer in Germany /Austria. But useful quality is only given by Optimum and Bernado
Holzmann is cheaper, but the price is not everything. Relay on recommendations to a delivering company in US. Dont by this via ALI BANGGOOD.
My Bernado 150 TOP (gunsmith) compairs to the grizzly G0776 and it does anything I want.

 

[terryd]

Goldstar31,

This table shows the pay in old pence per 10 hours of work for a labourer and a skilled worker:

http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/A04VALUE.htm
You will see that a skilled man earned in the south of England averaged 297d (£1/4s/11d) per 10 hours. The working week then was 48 hours on average so average manual pay would be £6/6s/7d

My apprenticeship started in 1963 and I was paid £2/2s/6p while the average manual salary was £16/0/0 according to the surveys compiled by the ONS and according to the same table hte average manual workers pay was £6 in 1946. These are averages, individual salaries in particul;ar circumstances are not reall relevabnt to the ocverall figures just to the individual. I attach the ONS data in te form of a spreadsheet, the important data is on te second sheet

Post 1946 rebuilding industry and the infrastructure in the UK was being done at a very fast rate while there was a shortage of skilled manual labour due to the losses in WW2.

TerryD

 

[Michael Rosenbauer]

NICE TO KNOW but OFF TOPIC

 

[goldstar31]

Apologies Trevor but a skilled man in the North of England received far less as I have said.
Again statistics can be skewed in whatever way one wants. There is a book or so my friend tells me is 'How to lie with statistics'
Actually, I studied the wonders of statistics and conclude that the Retail Price Index at the time included the - wait for it-- the price of candles. Again, I conclude that you were a War Baby- or later!
It would seem that you are again relying on second or later - concocted information.

I do recall being posted as a Treasury Class Civil Servant that having been posted to Workington in then Cumberland, that Like many others of the same status simply could not afford to live there as subsidised employees were being imported to a then depressed area to work for High Duty Alloys and later Winscale Works or Calder Hall or whatever. To have been posted to London. Of course it is true that cheap labour was being imported on the Empire Windrush to work in the London Underground and the hospitals-- but we are on a rather touchy subject.

Do you really want me to expand the subject of the Hanky Tie men going around the pit villages"

One's daughter in law was later in a consortium to buy 14 Volvos. One. of his sons bought a new Roller---

But then--- I actually lived through those days.

Perhaps, it would be prudent not to pursue the matter further. It becomes very emotive with yet again Miner's Strikes, Dock Strikes on one side and now - as I have said- the poverty which many people then and now suffer.

 

[Richard Hed]

Apologies Trevor but a skilled man in the North of England received far less as I have said.
Again statistics can be skewed in whatever way one wants. There is a book or so my friend tells me is 'How to lie with statistics'
Actually, I studied the wonders of statistics and conclude that the Retail Price Index at the time included the - wait for it-- the price of candles. Again, I conclude that you were a War Baby- or later!
It would seem that you are again relying on second or later - concocted information.

I do recall being posted as a Treasury Class Civil Servant that having been posted to Workington in then Cumberland, that Like many others of the same status simply could not afford to live there as subsidised employees were being imported to a then depressed area to work for High Duty Alloys and later Winscale Works or Calder Hall or whatever. To have been posted to London. Of course it is true that cheap labour was being imported on the Empire Windrush to work in the London Underground and the hospitals-- but we are on a rather touchy subject.

Do you really want me to expand the subject of the Hanky Tie men going around the pit villages"

One's daughter in law was later in a consortium to buy 14 Volvos. One. of his sons bought a new Roller---

But then--- I actually lived through those days.

Perhaps, it would be prudent not to pursue the matter further. It becomes very emotive with yet again Miner's Strikes, Dock Strikes on one side and now - as I have said- the poverty which many people then and now suffer.

What is a "Hanky Tie", I'm a Yankee, don't lie. What is a "pit village"? a Roller? Sorry but these terms are not in my vocabulary.

 

[goldstar31]

A Hanki is a handkerchief whilst a tie is perhaps a neck tie or even cravat. Apologies to my many close friends from the Indian sub Continent but they were poor immigrant fellow s who were trying to eke a living from going from door to door in the pit or coal ming villages in County Durham and Northumberland.

A Roller is common parlance for a Rolls Royce car whereas a Merc is a Mercedes Benz car .

Like my wonderful neighbours we are people who have risen from " Rags to Riches'. We were the the people who used washed out sugar sacks for bedding, and a tin bath for a Friday night when the whole faily would take a turn in the hot water heated in a set pot by the coal fire. Coal despite the enacted Truck Acts of old -was part of the wages of a coal miner.
I presume one of my friends still has the Roman Catholic account which provides for children who would otherwise have bare feet.
My father was a blacksmith farrier who worked both underground tending little pit ponies which pulled 'tubs' or wheeled bogies of coal from the coal face to the bottom of the mine shaft to be brought to 'bank' the surface to be taken to coaling staithes for onward transmission to the power staions of London or fires for rich Londoners.

A little postscript- oerhaps

One of my queens Scouts was a watchmaker just out of his apprenticeship- with no job.
He packed his rucsac with his belongings with his lathe on top and went to Perth in Australia to worl.
That was 1953 because I took him hitchhikibg to see the Festival of Britain before he left

My neighbour came from a Chinese family on the docks of Liverpool whilst his wife came from further north at b=Blyth and recalls with me helping to make 'hooky mats' which were made from canvas in which rejected clothes were cut up and hooked in tufts.

Today Tom and I are considered to be quite rich men. I have a date with him to sink some exclent vintage port and malt whisky tomorrow but never forget those hard bitter days.

Frankly, some people must have lived in a different world to us

 

[SmithDoor]

The biggest problem was computers.
Most think that was doing work. But the ones that would do the high skill labor got in to jobs in computers.

Let's work in a tin building no ac standing all day and working parts weighed 100 pounds or sitting at a keyboard in a AC year around and only picking up a paper with better pay.

Dave

Goldstar31,

This table shows the pay in old pence per 10 hours of work for a labourer and a skilled worker:

http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/A04VALUE.htm
You will see that a skilled man earned in the south of England averaged 297d (£1/4s/11d) per 10 hours. The working week then was 48 hours on average so average manual pay would be £6/6s/7d

My apprenticeship started in 1963 and I was paid £2/2s/6p while the average manual salary was £16/0/0 according to the surveys compiled by the ONS and according to the same table hte average manual workers pay was £6 in 1946. These are averages, individual salaries in particul;ar circumstances are not reall relevabnt to the ocverall figures just to the individual. I attach the ONS data in te form of a spreadsheet, the important data is on te second sheet

Post 1946 rebuilding industry and the infrastructure in the UK was being done at a very fast rate while there was a shortage of skilled manual labour due to the losses in WW2.

TerryD

 

[almega]

Hmmm? What was the original topic?

I love hearing the old geezers (I being a mere youngster of only 70) talk about the good old bad days and how bitter cold the winters were and the blistering heat of the summers. When they went to school it was walking several miles up hill both ways. How poor the pay was but somehow we manage better on much less. Kids these days don't know how good they have it. Perhaps we should start a new topic called "Reminiscences Through The Fog of Time", where they can compare notes and the others of us can enjoy vicariously.

Now about that lathe...the OP was looking for a sizable lathe of superior quality but, from his comments, seems to only want to spend about $4000USD for it. That is a tall order for new but might be done with diligence, patience and luck in the used market which may require some after purchase work to bring it up to tolerance. Any suggestions from this knowledgeable crowd?

 

[Richard Hed]

A Hanki is a handkerchief whilst a tie is perhaps a neck tie or even cravat. Apologies to my many close friends from the Indian sub Continent but they were poor immigrant fellow s who were trying to eke a living from going from door to door in the pit or coal ming villages in County Durham and Northumberland.

A Roller is common parlance for a Rolls Rotce car whereas a Merc is a Mercedes Benz car .

Like my wonderful neighbours we are people who have risen from " Rags to Riches'. We were the the people who used washed out sugar sacks for bedding, and a tin bath for a Friday night when the whole faily would take a turn in the hot water heated in a set pot by the coal fire. Coal despite the enacted Truck Acts of old -was part of the wages of a coal miner.
I presume one of my friends still has the Roman Catholic account which provides for children who would otherwise have bare feet.
My father was a blacksmith farrier who worked both underground tending little pit ponies which pulled 'tubs' or wheeled bogies of coal from the coal face to the bottom of the mine shaft to be brought to 'bank' the surface to be taken to coaling staithes for onward transmission to the power staions of London or fires for rich Londoners.

A little postscript- oerhaps

One of my queens Scouts was a watchmaker just out of his apprenticeship- with no job.
He packed his rucsac with his belongings with his lathe on top and went to Perth in Australia to worl.
That was 1953 because I took him hitchhikibg to see the Festival of Britain before he left

My neighbour came from a Chinese family on the docks of Liverpool whilst his wife came from further north at b=Blyth and recalls with me helping to make 'hooky mats' which were made from canvas in which rejected clothes were cut up and hooked in tufts.

Today Tom and I are considered to be quite rich men. I have a date with him to sink some exclent vintage port and malt whisky tomorrow but never forget those hard bitter days.

Frankly, some people must have lived in a different world to us

I like these storys. Keep it up, more please.

 

[Richard Hed]

Hmmm? What was the original topic?

I love hearing the old geezers (I being a mere youngster of only 70) talk about the good old bad days and how bitter cold the winters were and the blistering heat of the summers. When they went to school it was walking several miles up hill both ways. How poor the pay was but somehow we manage better on much less. Kids these days don't know how good they have it. Perhaps we should start a new topic called "Reminiscences Through The Fog of Time", where they can compare notes and the others of us can enjoy vicariously.

Now about that lathe...the OP was looking for a sizable lathe of superior quality but, from his comments, seems to only want to spend about $4000USD for it. That is a tall order for new but might be done with diligence, patience and luck in the used market which may require some after purchase work to bring it up to tolerance. Any suggestions from this knowledgeable crowd?

That's all I can afford max, and the way things are going, maybe not even that much. After all, I can't havfe it all, if I could have it all, I would get a gigantic building with all the toys in the world and hire folks like you all to have a good time in it, and of course, hire some young kidz to sweep up and build what eveer I thimks I needs.

 

[goldstar31]

deleted -- After all this is a hobby.

 

[Michael Rosenbauer]

Somebody wants to buy a lathe! Is not anymore the topic!
I am out!

 

[Bazzer]

A Hanki is a handkerchief whilst a tie is perhaps a neck tie or even cravat. Apologies to my many close friends from the Indian sub Continent but they were poor immigrant fellow s who were trying to eke a living from going from door to door in the pit or coal ming villages in County Durham and Northumberland.

A Roller is common parlance for a Rolls Royce car whereas a Merc is a Mercedes Benz car .

Like my wonderful neighbours we are people who have risen from " Rags to Riches'. We were the the people who used washed out sugar sacks for bedding, and a tin bath for a Friday night when the whole faily would take a turn in the hot water heated in a set pot by the coal fire. Coal despite the enacted Truck Acts of old -was part of the wages of a coal miner.
I presume one of my friends still has the Roman Catholic account which provides for children who would otherwise have bare feet.
My father was a blacksmith farrier who worked both underground tending little pit ponies which pulled 'tubs' or wheeled bogies of coal from the coal face to the bottom of the mine shaft to be brought to 'bank' the surface to be taken to coaling staithes for onward transmission to the power staions of London or fires for rich Londoners.

A little postscript- oerhaps

One of my queens Scouts was a watchmaker just out of his apprenticeship- with no job.
He packed his rucsac with his belongings with his lathe on top and went to Perth in Australia to worl.
That was 1953 because I took him hitchhikibg to see the Festival of Britain before he left

My neighbour came from a Chinese family on the docks of Liverpool whilst his wife came from further north at b=Blyth and recalls with me helping to make 'hooky mats' which were made from canvas in which rejected clothes were cut up and hooked in tufts.

Today Tom and I are considered to be quite rich men. I have a date with him to sink some exclent vintage port and malt whisky tomorrow but never forget those hard bitter days.

Frankly, some people must have lived in a different world to us

"It is grim in the north"

Everyone's backgrounds are different but our interest in model engineering bought us to this common place. Everyone's expectations are different.

B.

 

[Bazzer]

Since I have one of the crappiest lathes ever made, an Enco 9-20, and it is very sloppy and does not do left hand threads (which is a big reason I bought a lathe), I am looking to buy a better lathe in the 4-5000$ range. I would say the only thing good about an Enco of this size is that any lathe is better than nothing.

I have my eye on the Grizzly G4003G, however, I browsed the Chinese stuff in "Made in China" and Alibaba and have found numerous lathes that do the same as the Grizz. We all know that the Grizz stuff is just a way for Chinese stuff to sell more easily in the USA, and that Grizz has a pretty decent reputation for fixing bad equipment that gets to the customers, but the Chinese direct sales lathes are significantly lower price even after shipping, so I am wondering if anyone can suggest a decent lathe to buy. I am so suspicious of these companies that they will not support their products and that they might have generally poor quality stuff. One can never know what each company is like. There are SCORES of these companies in China making machine lathes and mills--which ones make good stuff?

In another year or so, I will likely be looking for a small mill also. Due to the corona virus (this years horror story to keep us entertained, or under control or believing in aliens or for some agency of the government to get more $$ out of the taxpayer or whatever), I thimk the price of everything just might drop a bit. Any suggestions?

Richard

This question of which machine tool to buy comes up so often and the second hand v new (Chinese) debate.

Here are a few of my observations over many years.

You cannot future proof your purchase, a long time ago I accepted that when ever I bought a machine that the second job that I would put on it would be too big, so I just buy for the current time not the future.

I tend to buy really good condition second hand quality machines and then I really look after them to preserve resale value, this works well for me as over countless machines I am actually in profit.

I take pride of ownership as being quite important, I want to walk into my workshops and think those are nice machines.

At the moment there are no magic bullets to get quality, the best Chinese hobby machines fall well short of the best western machines but there is also a huge price difference, the market for quality machines is quite small so the Chinese don't really bother with it.

More thoughts to follow.

B.

 

[SmithDoor]

For lathes under 10" it would be a debit if the China Lathes had tooling (like tapper attachment), back gears and hard to find a full quick change.

I too would look at the China Lathes but I like quick change and I use my tapper attachment. But no luck from China.

Dave

Richard

This question of which machine tool to buy comes up so often and the second hand v new (Chinese) debate.

Here are a few of my observations over many years.

You cannot future proof your purchase, a long time ago I accepted that when ever I bought a machine that the second job that I would put on it would be too big, so I just buy for the current time not the future.

I tend to buy really good condition second hand quality machines and then I really look after them to preserve resale value, this works well for me as over countless machines I am actually in profit.

I take pride of ownership as being quite important, I want to walk into my workshops and think those are nice machines.

At the moment there are no magic bullets to get quality, the best Chinese hobby machines fall well short of the best western machines but there is also a huge price difference, the market for quality machines is quite small so the Chinese don't really bother with it.

More thoughts to follow.

B.

 

[John Antliff]

I have a 1980s geared head Chinese metric tool room lathe (from the number 17 Chinese lathe factory) of 300 mm swing and 800 mm bed length and a new Myford Super 7 with lots of accessories purchased from a guy who bid for it and then changed his mind after he won it and wanted to recoup his money. The Myford was unused because the gentleman who originally bought it did not take it out of the delivery crate before he passed away soon after retiring! Very sad but at least I get a new lathe and so any wear that takes place will be attributable to me only! These two lathes do different jobs. If I want to make fiddly things in brass or aluminium I use the Myford. If I want to clean up a rough sand casting, I use the Chinese lathe because it has more mass than the Myford which I consider to be a very light machine. If I want to cut an Imperial thread I use the Myford or if a metric thread I use the Chinese lathe. This eliminates tedious change wheel substitutions although I will go that route if absolutely necessary. I don't have any preference, they are both capable of working down to tenths and the Myford has one advantage in that is has back gear and variable speed which makes thread cutting a pleasure. You need a certain nervous disposition to cut threads on the geared head machine or do as Jo Pie does cut your threads from the chuck outwards. BTW - the Chinese second hand lathe was half the cost of the new Myford and I consider it to be the better lathe. I've had the Chinese one for over 20 years and the Myford for 3 years.

I have not had a requirement to cut a long taper that cannot be done on the Chinese lathe using the cross slide although a taper turning attachment would facilitate such a task. If I come across a job that absolutel needs it then I'll make one, but so far.........

I understand I am fortunate to have these machines and other people may not have the finance or room for such choices.

 

[goldstar31]

I sort of agree with John A but the trouble- on the admission of the OP is that $ 1500 is 'out of his league'
Just for the 'blether' my neighbour and I sunk about half a bottle of excellent single maly and got on about the disparity between the North and South of England. He and his late brother in law owned the first Chinese restaurant in the next street where all this was going on and totally agrees with my comments about relative pricing- then and now.

Hopefully our poster will get 'something' within his 'net disposal income to improve his lot.

When I was in that position, I
restored not only one Myford but another belonging to a friend. The cost of outside help was a mere £25.

I wrote it up in Model Engineer.