Breisch Olds 1/2 scale engine drawings

[cobweb81]

Does anyone have a set of drawings for the Breisch Olds 1/2 scale engine?

 

[Gordon]

I have them redrawn in CAD because the original drawings were too faded to read. I would be willing to share them but I am not sure about copyright issues. I do not want to do something which is illegal.

 

[Cogsy]

The plans are not in the public domain so copyright still exists and they can't be legally shared. CAD drawings made from the copyrighted plans are fine for personal use (very likely anyway) but also cannot be shared legally with anyone else.

 

[Gordon]

The plans are not in the public domain so copyright still exists and they can't be legally shared. CAD drawings made from the copyrighted plans are fine for personal use (very likely anyway) but also cannot be shared legally with anyone else.

The question is who holds the copyright? As far as I know the plans are not available from any current owners.

As far as CAD drawings for personal use I certainly hope that is legal since I frequently make CAD drawings of engines I am working on. It gives me a better understanding of the engine and gives me a means of checking things like fit and what happens if I make a modification. Changing a drawing is easy and cheap compared to making wrong parts which do not fit.

 

[cobweb81]

To be clear, I have purchased a casting set for the olds 1/2 scale engine. Drawings were not included. I only want to be able to finish the castings. So I am seeking any resolution to that end.

 

[Cogsy]

The question is who holds the copyright? As far as I know the plans are not available from any current owners.

I don't know who owns the copyright but according to to the law that doesn't matter. Even if the plans are simply no longer attainable they are still protected. This protection is so the copyright holder ever decides to make them available for purchase again. This has happened in the past with other plan sets.

As far as CAD drawings for personal use I certainly hope that is legal since I frequently make CAD drawings of engines I am working on. It gives me a better understanding of the engine and gives me a means of checking things like fit and what happens if I make a modification. Changing a drawing is easy and cheap compared to making wrong parts which do not fit.

This is usually fine although it is possible for a publisher to stipulate no copying/electronic storage/derivative works/etc. I only put the 'likely' in as I'm not a lawyer and didn't want to give a definite answer lest it be wrong.

To be clear, I have purchased a casting set for the olds 1/2 scale engine. Drawings were not included. I only want to be able to finish the castings. So I am seeking any resolution to that end.

Unfortunately owning the castings doesn't automatically allow you access to the plans. I feel your pain and I hope that a resolution can be found in the form of a legal set of physical plans that you can purchase to finish your project. I'm in a similar situation where I have a mostly built engine (different designer though) from castings that didn't come with plans and I'm trying to finish it off (and fix the previous builders' errors) . I managed to get hold of the copyright holder and while I can't buy a set of the plans he has helped answer a few questions I had and provided some critical dimensions. Hopefully you have the same sort of luck as I did.

 

[BobsModels]

Unfortunately even a person who no longer wants their original plans that came with a set of castings cannot sell them to another party. There is an issue with one set of plans per set of castings. That is you cannot use one set of plans and have a group build of something unless the plan owner says OK. So technically even if I had a set of plans I cannot give or sell them to someone. The only exception is if I purchased the plans outright with no castings. When I was first deciding on a live steam locomotive to build I purchased four sets of plans, and purchased the castings for one of them. I did not see any issue selling the unused sets of purchased plans.

Cabin Fever is coming up, might be a good source of information to find out who owns the rights to the plans.

 

[cobweb81]

Thank you all. I will just reverse engineer one that is built that I have access to. If anyone knows who owns the rights to the drawings I would love to know the answer.

 

[littlelocos]

I'd recommend checking with Doug Cvelbar of Ministeam/Executive Model Design. I know he has the 1/4 scale Olds and thought he had the 1/2-scale. Another one to check with is Bob Herder.
http://www.ministeam.com
http://www.minicastings.com
http://bobherder.tripod.com/index.htm

 

[LorenOtto]

To be clear, I have purchased a casting set for the olds 1/2 scale engine. Drawings were not included. I only want to be able to finish the castings. So I am seeking any resolution to that end.

I have a set of these drawings that I acquired some years ago and no longer need. There is no copyright information anywhere on them. They were redrawn by Paul P. Breisch on 5-24-76. If interested PM me.

 

[BobsModels]

Unfortunately they are copyright, they belonged to Paul Breish and now whoever has the castings that go with them. There does not need to be an explicit copyright indicator. Those were, as far as I know his last revisions, ie re-drawn. All of us would like to accommodate, I too have drawings that I have no need of, but I still feel the best way to go is find the owner and the response by littlelocos is an excellent source of information.

 

[Gordon]

Unfortunately they are copyright, they belonged to Paul Breish and now whoever has the castings that go with them. There does not need to be an explicit copyright indicator. Those were, as far as I know his last revisions, ie re-drawn. All of us would like to accommodate, I too have drawings that I have no need of, but I still feel the best way to go is find the owner and the response by littlelocos is an excellent source of information.

OK So how do we know if something is copyrighted? I doubt whether many of the hobbyist, particularly years ago, actually bothered with a copyright. Also when does a modification become my design? Change 1" bore to 1 1/16? Mirror image? Built from bar stock as opposed to castings? After all, all hit and miss engines are pretty much the same design. Actually I thought that there was a time limit on copyrights but I do not know how long that would be. 10 years or 100 years. Does the death of the original designer and the dissolving of the original manufacturer make a difference? Does an original design imply a copyright? If so I have hundreds of original designs out there. I spent 30 years designing and building industrial machines but almost all designs are just a variation on a basic concept.

I am not trying to be difficult but I really do not know.

 

[Jojo]

A

 

[BobsModels]

How about we just leave it it to board policy:

https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/copyright-notice.3856/

 

[Jojo]

How about we just leave it it to board policy:

https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/copyright-notice.3856/

I respect “copyrighted “ material law.
But in this case with Mr.Breish having passed away over twenty years ago ,is there truly any harm
In sharing a set of needed plans to a fellow model engineer?

 

[Cogsy]

OK So how do we know if something is copyrighted? I doubt whether many of the hobbyist, particularly years ago, actually bothered with a copyright.

Copyright doesn't need to be applied for, it's automatically applied to the publication, so it's safe to assume almost everything is subject to copyright.

Also when does a modification become my design? Change 1" bore to 1 1/16? Mirror image? Built from bar stock as opposed to castings? After all, all hit and miss engines are pretty much the same design.

The exact point where a derivative work becomes your own would be a question for a lawyer or a judge, but common sense tells us that if your design is only a modification of another design then it's not your design. Think about the problems musicians run into when then use similar riffs or melodies, even when they change the key and timing. Basically, if your design is based on someone else's then they hold the copyright.

Actually I thought that there was a time limit on copyrights but I do not know how long that would be. 10 years or 100 years. Does the death of the original designer and the dissolving of the original manufacturer make a difference? Does an original design imply a copyright? If so I have hundreds of original designs out there. I spent 30 years designing and building industrial machines but almost all designs are just a variation on a basic concept.

Time limits vary by country of publication, type of publication and year of publication/generation. In many cases, for USA produced stuff in our hobby domain, copyright extends 95 years after magazine publication or 70 years after the death of the author for other works.

Yes, there would be copyrights applicable to your original designs but depending how you distributed the material (or who was paying you to produce them) the copyrights may have been voided or passed along to your employer or customer. More questions for a lawyer.

I respect “copyrighted “ material law.
But in this case with Mr.Breish having passed away over twenty years ago ,is there truly any harm
In sharing a set of needed plans to a fellow model engineer?

Yes there is potential harm in this. Someone holds the copyright to these plans and they have commercial value. It is entirely possible that this person may seek to sell these plans in the future and having the plans shared despite copyright would devalue them. Just recently some long out-of-print plans were re-released electronically and many sets were sold to interested modellers. Had they been shared illegally the copyright owner would not have sold many, if any, sets. Now the modellers who received the illegal plans may have saved a few dollars, but the copyright holder and designer, plus many other designers, may have then decided that it simply wasn't worth the effort to produce new plan sets for other engines as copyright wasn't being respected, which hurts our entire hobby. We don't have enough plan producers to risk turning them away from the hobby by sharing copyrighted plans for our own convenience.

I know it's painful but if the plans are available for the 1/4 scale, then maybe a purchase of them and scale to suit the castings might work?

 

[LorenOtto]

Copyright doesn't need to be applied for, it's automatically applied to the publication, so it's safe to assume almost everything is subject to copyright.



The exact point where a derivative work becomes your own would be a question for a lawyer or a judge, but common sense tells us that if your design is only a modification of another design then it's not your design. Think about the problems musicians run into when then use similar riffs or melodies, even when they change the key and timing. Basically, if your design is based on someone else's then they hold the copyright.



Time limits vary by country of publication, type of publication and year of publication/generation. In many cases, for USA produced stuff in our hobby domain, copyright extends 95 years after magazine publication or 70 years after the death of the author for other works.

Yes, there would be copyrights applicable to your original designs but depending how you distributed the material (or who was paying you to produce them) the copyrights may have been voided or passed along to your employer or customer. More questions for a lawyer.



Yes there is potential harm in this. Someone holds the copyright to these plans and they have commercial value. It is entirely possible that this person may seek to sell these plans in the future and having the plans shared despite copyright would devalue them. Just recently some long out-of-print plans were re-released electronically and many sets were sold to interested modellers. Had they been shared illegally the copyright owner would not have sold many, if any, sets. Now the modellers who received the illegal plans may have saved a few dollars, but the copyright holder and designer, plus many other designers, may have then decided that it simply wasn't worth the effort to produce new plan sets for other engines as copyright wasn't being respected, which hurts our entire hobby. We don't have enough plan producers to risk turning them away from the hobby by sharing copyrighted plans for our own convenience.

I know it's painful but if the plans are available for the 1/4 scale, then maybe a purchase of them and scale to suit the castings might work?

As a retired bookseller, I tend to think of these used plans in the same context as used books and other publications. It is not illegal to sell used books or ephemera, but it may be illegal to sell reproductions without authorization of the copyright holder. The recourse for the copyright holder is civil action.

 

[littlelocos]

Copyright doesn't need to be applied for, it's automatically applied to the publication, so it's safe to assume almost everything is subject to copyright.


Yes there is potential harm in this. Someone holds the copyright to these plans and they have commercial value. It is entirely possible that this person may seek to sell these plans in the future and having the plans shared despite copyright would devalue them. Just recently some long out-of-print plans were re-released electronically and many sets were sold to interested modelers. Had they been shared illegally the copyright owner would not have sold many, if any, sets. Now the modelers who received the illegal plans may have saved a few dollars, but the copyright holder and designer, plus many other designers, may have then decided that it simply wasn't worth the effort to produce new plan sets for other engines as copyright wasn't being respected, which hurts our entire hobby. We don't have enough plan producers to risk turning them away from the hobby by sharing copyrighted plans for our own convenience.

I know it's painful but if the plans are available for the 1/4 scale, then maybe a purchase of them and scale to suit the castings might work?

Thank you Cogsy. Great point!

As the current owner of one of Mr. Breisch's projects (a Robinson-style Stirling engine), as well as numerous designs produced by Paul Jacobs, provenance of intellectual property is a REAL issue. The Breisch-designed Stirling engine project has passed through two owners after Mr Breisch's death and prior to my obtaining the project. As such, I hold copyright to that design, the drawings and the foundry patterns for same.

The Olds project discussed here has a current owner, most-likely one of the fellows I named above. Most of Mr. Breisch's IC engine projects were sold to Jay Peters. He subsequently sold them at the Iron Fever Expo auction about 2005 before passing away from ALS.

As one of the plans producers, and as one of the kits suppliers, in the hobby, I have a real, personal interest in not seeing my own designs, and the designs I hold passed around without consequence. Each of the projects held by Littlelocos Model Engineering was sold to Joy and I with the express understanding that we are not only allowed to, but responsible for keeping these projects available or reintroducing them back into the hobby for others to enjoy. This represents a HUGE investment in time and money.

The most-notable current and blatant copyright infringement is the little hit and miss engine available on eBay and AliExpress. It was designed by Dave Kerzel with all manufacturing rights withheld. The Chinese are currently having a field day with that one. Dave hasn't received a nickel.

Not to kick the hornet's nest too hard, but this topic also applies to model engineering clubs who have a "Library" of designs for their members. I have gladly allowed my plans to be copied by trade schools for educational purposes, but have never knowingly done the same for a club library.

Copyright issues with model engineering plans is a perennial hot topic and one that isn't going away any time soon.

Thanks,
Todd.

 

[littlelocos]

As a retired bookseller, I tend to think of these used plans in the same context as used books and other publications. It is not illegal to sell used books or ephemera, but it may be illegal to sell reproductions without authorization of the copyright holder. The recourse for the copyright holder is civil action.

LorenOtto. Great point and a nice way of looking at things. Treating these projects like books as you say works well in that, typically, the drawings and castings travel together until someone builds the model. In the case here, Cobweb81 purchased a set of castings, presumably knowing he would also have to find a set of drawings to go with them. As such, he needs to find and purchase another "book" or legal copy to go with them.

Thanks!
Todd.

 

[littlelocos]

BTW, I sent Doug Cvelbar an e-mail last evening to see if he is the current owner of the project or if he knows who is.
I'll post a response if I get one.
Todd.