Thanks Richard, I think steamchick has explained it superbly.
Bob J's No.21 Steam Engine (drawings and STP files by Pat J)
- Thread starter GreenTwin
- Start date
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Commercially Steam Oil
https://www.hallettoil.co.uk/steam-oils/
is a grade of oil traditionally used for steam engines. VERY viscous (50W??) when at room temperature, and with a vaporisation temperature compatible with steam temperatures to become oil vapour in the steam - as far as I can GUESS? So when steam expands in the cylinder (or valve chest or anywhere else!) the oil becomes condensed and lubricates all those internal surfaces of the engine. In fact when steam condenses too, the incredibly fine droplets of steam condensate (water) and oil mix to become a milk-like emulsion. I know modellers who do not use steam oil in case the thick viscous oil gums-up the engine when cold. But I use it in displacement lubricators as it seems to work fine, and the oilers do a good job of providing a little oil constantly when running. (Measured by the oil consumption when draining condensate after a run before re-filling!).
It smells of - OIL. Walk past any preservation steam loco (full sized or scale) and you can smell the distinctive "steam oil" smell mixed with coal smoke. - Or just the oil if the fire is out.
I heard of drivers using Castor Oil on their track model locos, but, like early (pre-1970s?) racing car and motorcycle racers, suffered diarrhoea afterwards! Who knows what the regular Steam oil does, as it is a mineral oil I think?
BUT if running on AIR from a compressor, use regular air-tool oil from the air-tool shop. It contains additives for resisting corrosion from condensate from AIR. Even though expanded air has a lower dew point than room air. In that case, invert the Displacement Lubricator - using a light machine oil such as 7W "lathe oil", or compressed-air-tool oil. The pulsations of the inlet will draw -in adequate lubrication to resist wear, in place of steam condensate displacing the oil into the steam stream entering the engine.
I make displacement lubricators sometimes, but they can be bought quite cheaply at times - for less than the cost of the brass I have to buy! (See attachment).
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/19650483...7779&msclkid=3a4e8886baca1e389d32effcf048c620
N.B. If you wash-out engines after use by using a water displacement like WD40, or silicon spray, or even Paraffin oil, then you MUST lubricate with something that both lubricates and resists corrosion - like car engine oil of a low viscosity (7.5W30 is good - but only really good for preventing corrosion for a month or 2, depending upon your climate? - like in your car engine.) or rust preventative (may be good for 3 to 60 months overwintering in the cold garage?) to avoid "stuck piston rings" or piston, etc. when you next come to run the engine. Unless you have brass or bronze valve chests, valves, rods, cylinders and pistons, etc.
After a good session of steaming engines (e.g. a show day) I seem to spend as much time de-watering engines and re-lubricating after use as I do actually steaming! (Running/idling on a low-supply air compressor).
And I have a couple of small engines that will happily tick-over while I am in the workshop, running on my ex-'fridge compressor. They make good conversation in the background ("toosh, toosh, toosh, toosh, toosh...") - Makes a change from eternal repeats of music + adverts on the radio, especially when I need thinking time for a special set-up or operation.
Happy days!
K2
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If the hole for the connecting rod in the lower cylinder head is not perfectly concentric with the bore, then you can get binding between the lower head and the connecting rod.
If your machining is good, and everything is exact, you can use less clearance.
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As others mention, de-watering a steam engine with WD40 is critical if you run an engine on steam.
If you don't de-water, then the piston and ring will rust solid with the cylinder (don't ask me how I know this).
If I run a steam engine on air, I use a bit of WD40 to get rid of any condensate, but not nearly as much as if I had run the engine on steam.
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If you don't de-water, then the piston and ring will rust solid with the cylinder (don't ask me how I know this).
If I run a steam engine on air, I use a bit of WD40 to get rid of any condensate, but not nearly as much as if I had run the engine on steam.
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Thank you , every day I learn something new.
TrollForge
Member
Thanks a bunch Pat!
If I can ever find a place to set my shop back up, and get the last few repairs & upgrades done to my 130 year old Lathe, I think I want to try the Dake... (not having a mill) it looks like a good place to start.
You didn't answer my last question (at least to my old nerve damaged brain's contentment.) Would it be alright to film the build and post it on YouTube, or would you see that as a breech of the "Not for Commercial Use" clause?
I don't want to run afoul of you or the site.
T.
No problem filming and posting on youtube, even if youtube pays something.
We will call that "falling into the gray area" and say that is ok.
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We will call that "falling into the gray area" and say that is ok.
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Well on my way into this now, I've got to finish the piston off , however, I see there is a counterbore 0.2" deep x .246 dia.(size d drill).surely this must be clearance on. 250" for the connecting rod to go in and protrude through the piston for the nut to go on. Am I on the right track or reading it wrong.
This is the piston and rod drawing.
Although it does say "clearance", I think the intent was to have a slight interference fit, perhaps a thou or so, so that the piston fits snug to the rod.
If it is not a slight intererence fit, the piston could rock on the rod.
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Although it does say "clearance", I think the intent was to have a slight interference fit, perhaps a thou or so, so that the piston fits snug to the rod.
If it is not a slight intererence fit, the piston could rock on the rod.
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I usually drill to the rod size so would have used a 1/4" drill for that. 4 thou under is going to be tight!
What size did the team build ones end up being made to?
What size did the team build ones end up being made to?
Not super critical, just a slight interference fit will be fine.
Those drawings were made in 2011, and were probably the first complete engine drawings I created, so not necessarily refined like someone who had done a lot of modeling work, but I think these drawings will get you in the ballpark.
The team build did not go well, although there were some who produced some very high quality parts.
Some folks did not get their parts built.
I think two functional engines were built from that team build.
The folks who shipped their parts to me got a full set of engine parts shipped back to them.
That was really at the very beginning of my model engine building attempts, and I really did not have machining down well in 2011.
I think the drawings are ok if a little care is used with some of the fits.
The original engine my dad built runs very well, and that is where most of these dimensions originated.
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Edit:
Looking back, this engine seems very simple, but at the time, it was very challenging for me, since my engine building experience in 2011 was basically zero.
I never got my engine completed, but I think two other individuals did complete their engines and get them running.
I recall being totally exasperated with many aspects of this build, and had problems with silver soldering, machining, fitting the parts accurately, and just a general lack of using machine tools and micrometers in general.
I knew my skills were poor when I started this build, but that was the intent of the build, ie: to learn how to build engines.
If one never attempts an engine, then one never figures out how to do it.
Even though I failed to get my engine complete, I was determined to learn the process regardless of the difficulties.
After a few more barstock engine attempts with limited success, I decided that casting was the way to go for me.
Don't be discouraged by some initial failures; that is normal for many I think in this hobby.
Had I given up after this build, then the green twin would never have been built.
For a while, I had a wall where I hug up parts that were almost machined perfectly, but ruined during the final cutting/drilling.
These days, I can get the machining right on the first try.
The green twin below was my 2nd attempt at building an engine, and the parts are cast in either gray iron (the flywheel), or 356 aluminum. So you can see the progress I made from my failed engine build attempt #1 to my second engine build attempt, which was the green twin.
The green twin was made completely from three photos.
It is a matter of sticking with it till you gain the necessary skills.
The folks here who taught me are still here for the most part.
.
Those drawings were made in 2011, and were probably the first complete engine drawings I created, so not necessarily refined like someone who had done a lot of modeling work, but I think these drawings will get you in the ballpark.
The team build did not go well, although there were some who produced some very high quality parts.
Some folks did not get their parts built.
I think two functional engines were built from that team build.
The folks who shipped their parts to me got a full set of engine parts shipped back to them.
That was really at the very beginning of my model engine building attempts, and I really did not have machining down well in 2011.
I think the drawings are ok if a little care is used with some of the fits.
The original engine my dad built runs very well, and that is where most of these dimensions originated.
.
Edit:
Looking back, this engine seems very simple, but at the time, it was very challenging for me, since my engine building experience in 2011 was basically zero.
I never got my engine completed, but I think two other individuals did complete their engines and get them running.
I recall being totally exasperated with many aspects of this build, and had problems with silver soldering, machining, fitting the parts accurately, and just a general lack of using machine tools and micrometers in general.
I knew my skills were poor when I started this build, but that was the intent of the build, ie: to learn how to build engines.
If one never attempts an engine, then one never figures out how to do it.
Even though I failed to get my engine complete, I was determined to learn the process regardless of the difficulties.
After a few more barstock engine attempts with limited success, I decided that casting was the way to go for me.
Don't be discouraged by some initial failures; that is normal for many I think in this hobby.
Had I given up after this build, then the green twin would never have been built.
For a while, I had a wall where I hug up parts that were almost machined perfectly, but ruined during the final cutting/drilling.
These days, I can get the machining right on the first try.
The green twin below was my 2nd attempt at building an engine, and the parts are cast in either gray iron (the flywheel), or 356 aluminum. So you can see the progress I made from my failed engine build attempt #1 to my second engine build attempt, which was the green twin.
The green twin was made completely from three photos.
It is a matter of sticking with it till you gain the necessary skills.
The folks here who taught me are still here for the most part.
.
Attachments
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Green Twin:
I read through the thread looking for a date that your dad build the Bob J #21 and I could only find reference to "many years ago", kind of like "far far away". Would you have a closer date, maybe a year?
I'm recording the PLA engine I built in my files and I'd like to include the time frame the engine was designed and first built.
Thanks;
Bob
P.S. Even with the light flywheel, a little lithium grease will get her running like crazy on 10psi air.
I read through the thread looking for a date that your dad build the Bob J #21 and I could only find reference to "many years ago", kind of like "far far away". Would you have a closer date, maybe a year?
I'm recording the PLA engine I built in my files and I'd like to include the time frame the engine was designed and first built.
Thanks;
Bob
P.S. Even with the light flywheel, a little lithium grease will get her running like crazy on 10psi air.
I think my dad retired from the family lumber business about 1985, and he went into the commercial machining business.
His machine shop was about 4,000 sq. ft.
Here is a list of his equipment.
Many of the machines were quite large.
Dad retired for a second time in about 1990, set up a small shop behind his house, and purchased a Grizzly lathe and mill.
I can't prove it, but my dad's the No.21 design was probably influenced by a similar Stuart design.
This is my dad's original sketch for the No.21.
Dad was low-tech, and he worked out the geometry for all of his engines using pencil and ink on modern vellum.
The number 21 is a random number I assigned to his vellum drawings.
Dad built about 35 model engines, two full sized Roper replica steam bicycles, and a full sized Stanley Steam auto replica.
Some of dad's builds.
Most of these engines were prior to the year 2000, which is when I took most of these photos.
Some of dad's engines were built after Tom Lindsay of Lindsay's Books sent him engravings of old engines, such as the Bernay, the V-Twin, the Roper Steam bicycle, the Robertson Semi-Rotary, and the Scientific American.
Dad built two Bernays, two Scientific Americans, and two Robertson Semi-Rotary engines, and sent one of each to Tom Lindsay.
I think Dad started with this very simple design, and I seem to recall that it was published in Live Steam Magazine.
Over a 10 year span, his engine builds got progressively more complex.
His machine shop was about 4,000 sq. ft.
Here is a list of his equipment.
Many of the machines were quite large.
Dad retired for a second time in about 1990, set up a small shop behind his house, and purchased a Grizzly lathe and mill.
I can't prove it, but my dad's the No.21 design was probably influenced by a similar Stuart design.
This is my dad's original sketch for the No.21.
Dad was low-tech, and he worked out the geometry for all of his engines using pencil and ink on modern vellum.
The number 21 is a random number I assigned to his vellum drawings.
Dad built about 35 model engines, two full sized Roper replica steam bicycles, and a full sized Stanley Steam auto replica.
Some of dad's builds.
Most of these engines were prior to the year 2000, which is when I took most of these photos.
Some of dad's engines were built after Tom Lindsay of Lindsay's Books sent him engravings of old engines, such as the Bernay, the V-Twin, the Roper Steam bicycle, the Robertson Semi-Rotary, and the Scientific American.
Dad built two Bernays, two Scientific Americans, and two Robertson Semi-Rotary engines, and sent one of each to Tom Lindsay.
I think Dad started with this very simple design, and I seem to recall that it was published in Live Steam Magazine.
Over a 10 year span, his engine builds got progressively more complex.
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Dad was very familiar with steam engines since the family lumber company installed two of them in 1905, and used them into the 1950's.
Here is a photo of one of them.
I don't have a photo of the second engine, but I am told that it was a twin of some type, perhaps vertical.
Dad said the foreman running this engine got tired of the eccentric clanking, from being worn (oval), and so he tighted up the strap and took the slack out. The engine made 1/2 a turn when it started, and then broke the valve rod, and wrapped it around the crankshaft.
The foreman was reported to have said "Well, I guess we don't need to do that again".
There were probably some other colorful words mixed in there if I had to guess.
Here is a photo of one of them.
I don't have a photo of the second engine, but I am told that it was a twin of some type, perhaps vertical.
Dad said the foreman running this engine got tired of the eccentric clanking, from being worn (oval), and so he tighted up the strap and took the slack out. The engine made 1/2 a turn when it started, and then broke the valve rod, and wrapped it around the crankshaft.
The foreman was reported to have said "Well, I guess we don't need to do that again".
There were probably some other colorful words mixed in there if I had to guess.
Dad had a commercial riverboat liscense, and so he got to pilot the paddlewheeler "Mary Woods No. 2" for a short while, I think on the Arkansas River.
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Your Dad was definitely an old-school craftsman as well as a talented designer. It is also apparent that he was well-versed in business and organizational skills to keep things clean and useful and steadily work through so many projects.
I like the picture of the "second" shop: Definitely a worker's shop, not a man cave (although it may have served as that as well.)
I appreciate the list of things bought to set up the "first" shop. Definitely he knew what was really needed and went about getting it all in a very organized way.
Thank You for posting this all, which must be a trip down memory lane for you.
--ShopShoe
I like the picture of the "second" shop: Definitely a worker's shop, not a man cave (although it may have served as that as well.)
I appreciate the list of things bought to set up the "first" shop. Definitely he knew what was really needed and went about getting it all in a very organized way.
Thank You for posting this all, which must be a trip down memory lane for you.
--ShopShoe
My dad started engineering school, perhaps after he graduated high school in about 1947, but he was unable to get through the math.
Dad designed dust collection and handling equipment, and patented that equipment, so he had a lot of design talent.
I did go to engineering school, and due to my wife's excellent tutoring, I did get through four semesters of calculus, and got an EE degree.
My life and career was extremely busy, and so was my dad's life, so we sort of had parallel lives, but where not as close personally as I would have liked to have been.
One person described dad's model engine work as "seat-of-the-pants" type designing, and that is a pretty accurate description of what dad did.
Dad was what I call a "freelancer" type model engine designer, where he would select a print of an engine from an old book, and then create sketches for an approximate design of that engine.
His sketches were only detailed enough to work out the geometry, but not formal drawings.
His sketches were dimensionally accurate, but not accurate as far as matching to scale the original engine dimensions.
For dad it was a hobby, nothing more or less, and he enjoyed sitting down, making sketches over a few days, cutting out barstock material, machining and assembling the parts, and then running the engine.
The entire process was perhaps a few weeks at most per engine for the total design and build.
Every engine he started, he finished quickly, and every engine he built ran very well.
Dad had no interaction with other model engine builders, since there are not really in this area of the country that I or he was aware of.
I am more of a stickler in trying to match the exact scaled dimenions of old engines, and so I go to a lot of trouble to try and get an engine that is an exact scale replica of the original, not an approximation, and not a freelance design, but a formal engineering approach, with things like balance and forces taken into account. Obviously some casting wall thicknesses have to be increased when scaling down a large design, but I hide those on the interior of the engine generally.
A formal engineering approach to model engine building is very time consuming, and where dad was an Energizer Bunny engine builder, I use the slow tortoise approach.
Dad refused to get a computer, and refused to learn CAD, so he hand sketched everything.
I had to learn CAD for work, and so it is natural for me to do my drawings on a computer, as well as 3D modeling on a computer.
Dad talked about building a foundry, and was well aware of the process that was illustrated in several Live Steam magazine articles, but he said "I don't have room in my shop for a foundry".
Foundry equipment takes up a lot of space, and my wife gave up her two car garage so that I could have a foundry and workshop.
I have a great wife for sure; she tolerates my hobbies.
Dad was an interesting guy for sure.
He had a lot of hobbies, including building boats, collecting old hit-and-miss engines, restoring large old diesel engines, restoring old John Deere tractors (he had 12 tractors at one point), riverboat piloting, sharpshooting (he had boxes of trophies), etc.
Dad was responsible for repairing and maintaining all the equipment at the family lumber company, and was was also actively involved in designing all the equipment and conveyor systems that were used for that lumber mill.
Dad also operated two large steam boilers which powered the lumber company.
Below is dad operating a 3-cylinder Fairbanks Morse that he restored.
Dad's large machine shop had a full bridge crane across the entire building, so he could handle large projects like this.
.
Dad designed dust collection and handling equipment, and patented that equipment, so he had a lot of design talent.
I did go to engineering school, and due to my wife's excellent tutoring, I did get through four semesters of calculus, and got an EE degree.
My life and career was extremely busy, and so was my dad's life, so we sort of had parallel lives, but where not as close personally as I would have liked to have been.
One person described dad's model engine work as "seat-of-the-pants" type designing, and that is a pretty accurate description of what dad did.
Dad was what I call a "freelancer" type model engine designer, where he would select a print of an engine from an old book, and then create sketches for an approximate design of that engine.
His sketches were only detailed enough to work out the geometry, but not formal drawings.
His sketches were dimensionally accurate, but not accurate as far as matching to scale the original engine dimensions.
For dad it was a hobby, nothing more or less, and he enjoyed sitting down, making sketches over a few days, cutting out barstock material, machining and assembling the parts, and then running the engine.
The entire process was perhaps a few weeks at most per engine for the total design and build.
Every engine he started, he finished quickly, and every engine he built ran very well.
Dad had no interaction with other model engine builders, since there are not really in this area of the country that I or he was aware of.
I am more of a stickler in trying to match the exact scaled dimenions of old engines, and so I go to a lot of trouble to try and get an engine that is an exact scale replica of the original, not an approximation, and not a freelance design, but a formal engineering approach, with things like balance and forces taken into account. Obviously some casting wall thicknesses have to be increased when scaling down a large design, but I hide those on the interior of the engine generally.
A formal engineering approach to model engine building is very time consuming, and where dad was an Energizer Bunny engine builder, I use the slow tortoise approach.
Dad refused to get a computer, and refused to learn CAD, so he hand sketched everything.
I had to learn CAD for work, and so it is natural for me to do my drawings on a computer, as well as 3D modeling on a computer.
Dad talked about building a foundry, and was well aware of the process that was illustrated in several Live Steam magazine articles, but he said "I don't have room in my shop for a foundry".
Foundry equipment takes up a lot of space, and my wife gave up her two car garage so that I could have a foundry and workshop.
I have a great wife for sure; she tolerates my hobbies.
Dad was an interesting guy for sure.
He had a lot of hobbies, including building boats, collecting old hit-and-miss engines, restoring large old diesel engines, restoring old John Deere tractors (he had 12 tractors at one point), riverboat piloting, sharpshooting (he had boxes of trophies), etc.
Dad was responsible for repairing and maintaining all the equipment at the family lumber company, and was was also actively involved in designing all the equipment and conveyor systems that were used for that lumber mill.
Dad also operated two large steam boilers which powered the lumber company.
Below is dad operating a 3-cylinder Fairbanks Morse that he restored.
Dad's large machine shop had a full bridge crane across the entire building, so he could handle large projects like this.
.
