beginner wondering about lathes
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Layne said:
Hi Lane. That's true, but my Chinese lathe 'is more' than adequate. I absolutely love it, and it does exactly what its told to do. The only problem that I had was with tool post rigidity, I didn't think it was good enough, and that was a very simple fix.
On many occasions I have used my lathe all day, and at times day-after-day to make one accurate part after another. I don't understand why you say "making accurate parts on them is a chore.'
What is your lathe doing wrong? And which lathe do you have?
Sound to me like your saying you have a lot of experience with them. And that a potential buyer should heed your warning?
Or should they go by this statement? "That's not to say you shouldn't buy one"
I'm a little confused. scratch.gif
-MB
Cedge
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Lane has obviously never had to operate within the limited spaces many of us are stuck with using, not to mention budgetary constraints and electrical supply limitations. American iron is great stuff.... if you can justify owning it, but it pains me greatly to hear anyone take the stance that a chinese iron owner is somehow "less" because the tag on his machine doesn't say made in America. One good look around at what people on this forum have accomplished using "what they have" should be enough to quell all the "barely adequate" comments.
I'm pleased Lane has access to the precision of a Hardinge, but that makes him no better machinist than the guy who can hold tolerances with his cheaper machines, be they Southbend or Harbor freight. Give that guy a Hardinge and he'll show you just what holding tolerance is all about.....LOL.
Choosing machines that meet your own unique criteria is a personal decision and should never be based on the biased opinions of those who never walked a single step in your shoes.
Steve
Sorry for the confusion. We might have different definitions of accuracy... One time I had to make 200 parts with a bore that was +.0002" -.0000". On the best lathes, you can set the dial to zero, take the part out, take the tool out, put them back, run both axis all the way down and back, turn the dial to zero, and cut within .001 of where it was. That's just not going to happen on a chinese lathe. Making a part that is +-.001 takes a lot more measuring, this is why I call it a chore. That's even true of the 13" Clausing-Colchester I'm using now. Most of my chinese experience is with 3 MSC branded 9x30 lathes (same as many others, including grizzly) that are used in a student shop. Virtually every electrical switch has failed on them due to poor plastics. They're also strange sizes, so a little hard to replace. One motor burned out (showering sparks out of it's blowhole like a whale right in front of my face), and was irreplacable due to it's strange dimensions, so I had it re-wound. The students are not very skilled and tend to break a lot of roll pins and such, but that isn't the machine's fault. Would I buy one for a home shop? Yes. If one person uses it and takes care if it, they can be good and are a great value. Would I buy one for a student shop? Yes. They're just going to destroy it anyway regardless of how good it is and aren't going to make accurate parts either way. Would I buy one for myself to use at work? No. Some of the higher end tawainese stuff I would, but they're still pretty high dollar. There are no reasonably priced manual lathes being made on American soil anymore.
tel
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A Hardinge is better than a Chinese machine eh? That's really rather amusing, a bit like saying a Rolls Royce is better than a Toyota. But the acid test is this - Just how many miles have been covered by Rolls' in toto as opposed to how many by Toyotas in toto.
Similarly how many model engines have been built on Hardinges v Oriental machines.
As much as most of us would likesomething like that, the majority of us live on this planet.
Similarly how many model engines have been built on Hardinges v Oriental machines.
As much as most of us would likesomething like that, the majority of us live on this planet.
I never said a chinese iron owner is "less" and I certainly never said I was better than anyone else. I think you've all got me wrong. I am glad that the chinese machines are on the market and open the possibilty of lathe ownership to people that could not afford greater machines. I own a lot of hand tools from harbor frieght, I also own a few Milwaukee tools. Is there a difference? You bet there is. Both are good value for money, I just match the tool to what I need to do with it.
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Well said Steve! I would love to have a Hardinge too as I'm sure we all would if price were no object. Their accuracy and tolerances are legendary at least new from the factory, but I have to muse...it would take a metrology lab many MANY times the cost of a Hardinge and very precise environmental controls to even be able to measure in those ranges. If +/- .001 or so works as it does for most of our type projects, its really becomes a stretch to justify a higher lever of accuracy (from the tool) without the means to measure it.
Bill
Bill
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I'd agree with Lane on one point. If you have to run a mini lathe in a production environment, you'd best look for another job shop.
What seems to have escaped from this discussion is the fact that this is a hobby/home shop forum, where reproduction/replication of mass parts is rarely the need. While I've certainly had to remake a few parts in my efforts, the goal was always to produce one part that was spot on. Ninety percent of those remakes were due to my own lack of skills as opposed to the capabilities of the machines.
As Bill stated, I too would love to own a Hardinge or even a nice Southbend, but all I've located were either ragged out or priced above my justification point. My little C4 will take a .0005 cut when I ask it to do so, but NASA seems to have lost my number and very few of my engine projects demand that level of accuracy....even fewer of my quick fix around the home/garage projects.
Lane.... hobby machining is a whole different world from production land and takes a very different and more tolerant mind set.
Steve
What seems to have escaped from this discussion is the fact that this is a hobby/home shop forum, where reproduction/replication of mass parts is rarely the need. While I've certainly had to remake a few parts in my efforts, the goal was always to produce one part that was spot on. Ninety percent of those remakes were due to my own lack of skills as opposed to the capabilities of the machines.
As Bill stated, I too would love to own a Hardinge or even a nice Southbend, but all I've located were either ragged out or priced above my justification point. My little C4 will take a .0005 cut when I ask it to do so, but NASA seems to have lost my number and very few of my engine projects demand that level of accuracy....even fewer of my quick fix around the home/garage projects.
Lane.... hobby machining is a whole different world from production land and takes a very different and more tolerant mind set.
Steve
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Layne said:
My 'confusion' was about the contradictory message you were sending about the quality of Asian lathes, And I'm not confused about your definition of accuracy or mine. Accuracy to me means making a part to a dimension within a specified tolerance, period. That could be any thing, including as much as plus or minus .010, or as little as .0001. I generally like to work to an accuracy with a tolerance of minus .0000" plus .0005".
I have never made 200 parts, but I regularly make 5, 10, 15, and 20 accurate pieces. And when its called for I can, and have, made part after part that are within .0002" without any problem. I don't read the hand wheels on my lathe to achieve accurate results.They may or may not be highly accurate, I don't know, I don't care, and I don't use them. I use adjustable traveling rods and dial indicators with excellent results.
I live by this statement that I hold true. "Accuracy is in the hands of the operator, not the machine"
-MB
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1hand said:
Maybe so, but you have what it takes, and your twice as tough! :bow:
-MB
Metal Butcher said:
Of course it is. Les Paul could make you cry with a rubberband and a bucket but he invented a fantastic electric guitar for a reason. We make tools to make our lives easier. I have no doubt that given the time, patience and a proper set of measuring instruments you could make highly accurate (.0001") parts with a hand file and spit, but it would most certainly be a chore. From hand files up to Mitsu multi pallet 5axis machines, the work is still in the hands of the operator, but I'm saving up for a bandsaw not for accuracy but because I don't want to be lopsided anymore from hacksawing through SS barstock
.EDIT: the correlation with musicians might be a good one here. Almost universally great musicians (classical and jazz) use fantastically made and cherished instruments. That's not to say that they couldn't make striking music on "plain" instruments, just look at The Koln Concert by Keith Jarrett. But these are the greatest artists, and it is universally believed that the nicer the instrument the better the amateur will sound.
Back to the origional question:
There have been some good pointers in deciding what you need for your intended purposes. To recap some of those comments and bring things back to point; what are you intending to do with the equipment? Models, etc. What is the largest size of work that you can foresee needing to machine? This will dictate the table size, height above the table, swing, etc. of your equipment. What are your space limitations? Kind of a no brainier; you won't be able to put a 60" long machine in a space that is only 48", and if your machine shop will be in the basement, then those machines will have to get down there somehow (think weight and size). What is your budget? Generally speaking, the larger the machine is, the more funding it will take to tool it up.
Ultimately, it is really your decision based on your space, budget, and wishes. Some suggestions have been made to seek some classes if you have any in you area to see what machining is all about. To add to that, see if you can find a model machinist in your area that would be willing to mentor you, at least to get you going in the right direction. Find some books and read up on techniques. A lifetime can truly be devoted to learning and mastering the machining arts.
Finding the right machine(s) will happen. To take on my journey... I have an old American made milling machine that I rescued from the scrap man. It was sitting behind a business waiting to be picked up and hauled off. It had sat out in the weather for a while and had some rust on it, but nothing that some TLC couldn't handle. I rebuilt the head (with some help from a machinist friend), cleaned up the rust, replaced the electrics, and as a result I have a 10x50 mill for less than $1000 total investment. Yes, there is some wear on it, but it has taken great care of me. I know the machine and its quirks, so we get along fine.
I bought a brand new shiny Grizzly lathe that is a 13"x40" lathe several years later. There have been a couple of little things that I have changed on it that I didn't care for (tool post, and some of the hardware), but it has otherwise been a great machine. I don't recall exactly what I spent on it, but it was in the $3500 ball park. It also has its quirks, and I also get along fine with it.
To tool up for both machines, I watched for estate sales and sales with the industrial supplies. As I had some funds, I bought little bits here and there as I have gone along. A couple of my neighbors are retired machinists, and after seeing my hobby and what I was doing, they have donated some very nice tooling to the cause. Both said the same thing, "at least I know my tools will be used by someone who appreciates and values them".
My machines aren't top of the line equipment, nor are they up to ISO standards. But, they are way more capable than I am, and I have fun with them. That is really what all of this is about, anyway! Fun!!
doransignal said:
doransignal said:
There have been some good pointers in deciding what you need for your intended purposes. To recap some of those comments and bring things back to point; what are you intending to do with the equipment? Models, etc. What is the largest size of work that you can foresee needing to machine? This will dictate the table size, height above the table, swing, etc. of your equipment. What are your space limitations? Kind of a no brainier; you won't be able to put a 60" long machine in a space that is only 48", and if your machine shop will be in the basement, then those machines will have to get down there somehow (think weight and size). What is your budget? Generally speaking, the larger the machine is, the more funding it will take to tool it up.
Ultimately, it is really your decision based on your space, budget, and wishes. Some suggestions have been made to seek some classes if you have any in you area to see what machining is all about. To add to that, see if you can find a model machinist in your area that would be willing to mentor you, at least to get you going in the right direction. Find some books and read up on techniques. A lifetime can truly be devoted to learning and mastering the machining arts.
Finding the right machine(s) will happen. To take on my journey... I have an old American made milling machine that I rescued from the scrap man. It was sitting behind a business waiting to be picked up and hauled off. It had sat out in the weather for a while and had some rust on it, but nothing that some TLC couldn't handle. I rebuilt the head (with some help from a machinist friend), cleaned up the rust, replaced the electrics, and as a result I have a 10x50 mill for less than $1000 total investment. Yes, there is some wear on it, but it has taken great care of me. I know the machine and its quirks, so we get along fine.
I bought a brand new shiny Grizzly lathe that is a 13"x40" lathe several years later. There have been a couple of little things that I have changed on it that I didn't care for (tool post, and some of the hardware), but it has otherwise been a great machine. I don't recall exactly what I spent on it, but it was in the $3500 ball park. It also has its quirks, and I also get along fine with it.
To tool up for both machines, I watched for estate sales and sales with the industrial supplies. As I had some funds, I bought little bits here and there as I have gone along. A couple of my neighbors are retired machinists, and after seeing my hobby and what I was doing, they have donated some very nice tooling to the cause. Both said the same thing, "at least I know my tools will be used by someone who appreciates and values them".
My machines aren't top of the line equipment, nor are they up to ISO standards. But, they are way more capable than I am, and I have fun with them. That is really what all of this is about, anyway! Fun!!
This is I think where all the "heat" in this thread came in. Machinists, like musicians relate themselves to their tools, they are so invested in them and have such a history of grooming and loving them that we tend to take comments against them as personal.wareagle said:
I love my mill, and it's a Chinese X3. It has a lot of problems, and I'm trying to groom it through them. That's ok, I have a lot of problems too! I'd love a nice bridgeport, but I don't need it, and while I know some have gotten those machines for less than I got mine, I didn't get lucky. That's ok too.
milotrain said:
Very true. But I am thinking that this isn't as much a knock against a machine as it is looking at it through a different prism. I can see the point of view in looking at the hobby from a production mentality. If you are under the gun to crank out parts meeting a tolerance, you have to have solid tight equipment (or it makes it much easier) to meet those demands. If I stood over a high end lathe every day, and then looked at a hobby where I would be using hobby equipment, then I would certainly shudder the thought of having to use the lesser equipment.
milotrain said:
If I hadn't have found that old mill, then I likely wouldn't be in this hobby. It was one of those "right time; right place" deals that got me into this. Different topic for another day!
Let's help doransignal with his question!
I have a machinist friend who works at an industrial scale. The shop he works in has been building things by hand up until recently when they had a very large Army project so they bought a Fedal. He needed to turn a few bushing and some heavy 2" diameter by 3" length slugs for pneumatic rams so he bought a JET shopfox off amazon for $480. Does all he needs.
So:
Jet ShopFox $480 from amazon.com, and free shipping
It's smaller than most at 6x10 and comes with no tooling but it is very cheap.
I love the look of the Littlemachineshop high torque 7x12. It's $640 but it has a compound slide and uses a brushless DC motor. If you are close to SoCal this deal becomes great because you don't have to ship it.
ENCO and Grizzly both have free shipping occasionally, and HF has 20% coupons which they sometimes let you use on machinery.
You've seen http://www.mini-lathe.com/ right?
So:
Jet ShopFox $480 from amazon.com, and free shipping
It's smaller than most at 6x10 and comes with no tooling but it is very cheap.
I love the look of the Littlemachineshop high torque 7x12. It's $640 but it has a compound slide and uses a brushless DC motor. If you are close to SoCal this deal becomes great because you don't have to ship it.
ENCO and Grizzly both have free shipping occasionally, and HF has 20% coupons which they sometimes let you use on machinery.
You've seen http://www.mini-lathe.com/ right?
TroyO steps to the left to avoid the arguments...
I like my 8x12/14 Lathe I got from Harbor Freight. www.lathemaster.com also sells them. For some reason HF has it listed as 8x12, but it's really 8x14.
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-x-12-inch-precision-benchtop-lathe-44859.html
http://www.lathemaster.com/LATHEPRODUCTS.htm
Short version... the HF one is cheaper. The lathemaster one comes with a lot of the accessories, which is mighty nice as they can be hard to find. (And harder to wait for.. 6-8 weeks or more to get stuff from HF... IF it ever shows up.) Littlemachineshop now carries some stuff for it now... but at a pretty decent markup.
In comparison to the "Mini-lathe" series it weighs about 3-4x as much and has a better overall fit and finish. Not perfect mind you... but pretty good. It also has a fair amount more power and can take (much) bigger cuts.
On the downside it doesn't have variable speed so you have to change belts for different speeds. In addition, NONE of the speeds it does have is slow enough for comfortable threading, IMHO. (125 RPM minimum.) I added a variable speed motor to mine to get by that issue. It also does not have a transmission, so you have to change the gears by hand. (To cut different threads.) I think the mini-lathe you have to change gears as well?
So, it's a good, old fashioned, very manual but stoutly built machine. I got mine a few years ago when there was a Harbor Freight perfect price storm... LOL, lathe was on sale for $489 and I had a 20% cupon... was just under $400 out the door. The regular price was $599 at the time as well... I think it's $699 now?
Anyway... for not much more than a Mini Lathe, it's bigger and stronger and worth the extra. I'd buy it again given the choice. Even with the price increase.
I like my 8x12/14 Lathe I got from Harbor Freight. www.lathemaster.com also sells them. For some reason HF has it listed as 8x12, but it's really 8x14.
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-x-12-inch-precision-benchtop-lathe-44859.html
http://www.lathemaster.com/LATHEPRODUCTS.htm
Short version... the HF one is cheaper. The lathemaster one comes with a lot of the accessories, which is mighty nice as they can be hard to find. (And harder to wait for.. 6-8 weeks or more to get stuff from HF... IF it ever shows up.) Littlemachineshop now carries some stuff for it now... but at a pretty decent markup.
In comparison to the "Mini-lathe" series it weighs about 3-4x as much and has a better overall fit and finish. Not perfect mind you... but pretty good. It also has a fair amount more power and can take (much) bigger cuts.
On the downside it doesn't have variable speed so you have to change belts for different speeds. In addition, NONE of the speeds it does have is slow enough for comfortable threading, IMHO. (125 RPM minimum.) I added a variable speed motor to mine to get by that issue. It also does not have a transmission, so you have to change the gears by hand. (To cut different threads.) I think the mini-lathe you have to change gears as well?
So, it's a good, old fashioned, very manual but stoutly built machine. I got mine a few years ago when there was a Harbor Freight perfect price storm... LOL, lathe was on sale for $489 and I had a 20% cupon... was just under $400 out the door. The regular price was $599 at the time as well... I think it's $699 now?
Anyway... for not much more than a Mini Lathe, it's bigger and stronger and worth the extra. I'd buy it again given the choice. Even with the price increase.
