AL320G Lathe - The Big Clean

[Blogwitch]

James,

You are doing exactly what you should be, but do look closer at what you are taking apart.

I bought my lathe brand new, and had it installed in my shop before I could have a chance to give it a going over.

I soon got into my inspection mode, and many things started to come to light on the surface, I didn't even get chance to start to really strip things down before I had totally rejected the lathe and threatened the supplier with legal action.
One of the first things I did was go through the brochure, then checked if what they said there matched what I was seeing with my own eyes, there were a few obvious discrepancies, such as being able to get the cutting tool close enough to the spindle to even cut.
Take pictures of anything you find wrong, then tell the supplier to bend over so you know where to stuff the machine.

Here are just a few of the things I found wrong.

Casting damage hiding under the toolpost.

A very bad ding on the main slideway

A crushed DRO cable

A damaged cable covered up with a bit of tape

Incorrect shaft lengths, these should all look the same as the top one

A chuck guard that was definitely too small, I couldn't reach the outer edge of the faceplate with a cutter with it closed down

A leaking spindle oil seal

Too many paint faults to show, here are just a few

A real major problem that will most probably affect a lot of new lathes, the spiral spring lead screw cover

If you have one of these fitted, just try a little experiment. Fit your faceplate, and move the saddle until the spring cover is fully collapsed at the left hand side, then measure just how far away your toolpost is from the faceplate. You should at least be able to get a correctly mounted tool to touch the plate. Here was mine with the topslide fully forwards. As can be seen, the nearest I can get is about 1.5" away. OK if using a boring bar, but no use with any other mounted tools.
Beginners would most probably never notice things like this until they had had the lathe for a while, when they start to experiment with faceplate work.

What happened?

I threatened with legal action if things on a newly supplied machine were to the same standards as this one.

A couple of weeks later I was invited to the factory where they showed me the mods on a new machine they had done to my specifications, I was then happy.

A couple of days later, the old machine was taken away by the supplier and the new machine was uncrated and fitted in it's place, all fully adjusted to perfection plus a few extras as a sweetener, such as a spare 3 jaw and some very nice tooling as well, and a promise that if anything went wrong, within reason, they would sort things out straight away. Well out of guarantee, one of the start caps started to play up. Early next morning I had a brand new complete motor delivered by courier, FOC, and I was told to keep the old one. I haven't repaired it yet as I have a 3phase and inverter to be fitted, so it will most probably never get done. Anyone need a motor that just needs a start cap?

So if you do find ANYTHING major, complain and threaten 'fit for purpose', miracles start to happen.

John

 

[joco-nz]

I buy 5 litres at a time------and have done for more years than I care to recall.

I did economics, cost accountancy and a lot of things that are recorded on worthless certificates lost in drawers somewhere.
Out of it all is the fact that Wizard 69 makes clear is that the mark up on small quantities is colossal.

Perhaps Penny wise, pound foolish should be the thought for the day.

??????????

Norman

Once I get a handle on how much/fast I am going to burn through this oil I can then decide if getting some offical ways oil stacks up. At the moment I'll experiment with the oil I have as used by a number of local lads.

I understand the economic side of things. I have similar certs lost in forgotten draws.

Cheers,
James.

 

[joco-nz]

John - good advice and I'm doing the checks. Nothing material at this point - touch wood.

 

[Blogwitch]

James,

Almost any agricultural supplier should have many gallons of 32 grade hydraulic in stock, farmers seem to drink the stuff as the hydraulics on their machines seem to leak all over the place (lack of maintenance) and as we all know, farmers are usually rather tight with their wads, so it will be cheaper than buying elsewhere.

I got my last 25ltrs of hydraulic fluid from North Western Farmers in the UK, but I would suggest you go to one a little closer to home.

Unless you are refilling any gearboxes every month and pouring the stuff over the lathe from a jug, 5ltrs should last a couple of years, and the same for 68 grade slideway oil as well.

BTW, while you are giving your machine a good going over, try to fit a small magnet into any drain plugs, it will give you a good idea of what is happening over time. My first couple of drains and refills ( with mag plugs) were full of tiny slivers of metal, but after a little time, nothing, and the gearbox has quietened down considerably as there are no loose bits still flying around. When I took the top off my head-stock with gearbox, the gears were like polished chrome on their surfaces.
If you don't fit any pick up devices, then all those slivers that the magnet should have picked up will be sitting at the bottom of the box to get circulated around with the new oil.

Another BTW.
If you look closely at this picture you can see the large industrial chuck guard that they fitted to my lathe, plus they also removed completely the spring leadscrew guard.
This then allowed me complete freedom to move around close to the headstock and also allowed me to have the 12" swing cut that they stated in the brochure, before fitting the larger guard, I could only get about 10".

John

 

[Wizard69]

I buy 5 litres at a time------and have done for more years than I care to recall.

I did economics, cost accountancy and a lot of things that are recorded on worthless certificates lost in drawers somewhere.
Out of it all is the fact that Wizard 69 makes clear is that the mark up on small quantities is colossal.

It is the way people make money off the cheap. Now I will admit good bottles for decanting aren't cheap, often costing more than the goods in the bottle, still the markup for small quantities is huge.

The most common example if this is running down to the local big box hardware store to get some screws or bolts. You can easily pay as much money for 5 that 25 or 50 would cost you through other sources.

Perhaps Penny wise, pound foolish should be the thought for the day.

??????????

Norman

 

[goldstar31]

I'm presently involved with a mark up of 20 TIMES. Certainly it shows just how much one can develop an idea. At one time, I paid for my school fees by selling spinach in the war and to keep it fresh for market, it was necessary to water it----------

And of course once qualified, another of the text books- well mine- gave instructions about documents certified with a bit of judicious carving of a potato-- with a stamp pad- obviously.:thumbup:

There are more than one wizard! LOL. As my son so scurrilously put it 'Dad, you've been retired longer than you have ever worked.'

 

[Wizard69]

I'm presently involved with a mark up of 20 TIMES. Certainly it shows just how much one can develop an idea. At one time, I paid for my school fees by selling spinach in the war and to keep it fresh for market, it was necessary to water it----------

And of course once qualified, another of the text books- well mine- gave instructions about documents certified with a bit of judicious carving of a potato-- with a stamp pad- obviously.:thumbup:

There are more than one wizard! LOL. As my son so scurrilously put it 'Dad, you've been retired longer than you have ever worked.'

A lot of people that have never ran a business complain about the mark up sometimes seen in stores but what they don't realize is that a lot of business fail every month due to the lack of cash flow. The same thing can be said about machine tool parts and tooling, the mark up may seem to be excessive when two dollars worth of steel and 5 minutes of CNC time ends up costing the buyer $75. But running a business and more importantly staying in business requires balancing a lot of expenses a big one being the tax man.

As for working I'm just hoping I make it to retirement age and can actually enjoy some shop time and maybe a little travel time. Looking back on my youth I wish I had listened to people and went to college for a degree. As it was, university right out of high school wasn't in the cards and the lure of a weekly paycheck was overwhelming when money was so scarce.

 

[XD351]

Got things mostly reassembled back onto the lathe other than the top slide. Everything oiled up and sliding nicely.



View attachment 84307



On the ways oil front we have a decision to step forward with. It's based on a mix of pragmatisim, chatting/listening to local advice and finally flicking my Kiwi "number 8 wire" switch. We are running with Chain/Bar Oil. It's designed to deal with dirty environments and lubricate a component that is not hot (like an engine). Its "sticky" so it won't slide off the ways. From what I can tell it also doesn't have detergent in it. The stuff I have is blue, I mean not just blue its FECKING BLUE!!

Reminds me of the shell helix ultra motor oil !
I believe bar oil is just a base oil with an anti slinging ( tacking ) additive and maybe an anti corrosive agent as tree sap usually makes things rust.
I would love to hear from a chemical engineer with extensive knowledge of lubricants ( not some armchair wanna be ) to explain why way oil is supposedly superior to bar oil .
I want to know what is in each of them and what it does - not some marketing hype which is something that the petrochemical industry is infamous for !
Engine oils and fuel that " cleans as you drive " - bulls**t!
There is a seller on ebay that is flogging vactra oil in i think 500ml for a price that makes me cry , even royal purple race oil isn't that expensive !
Every retailer i found here in Australia would only sell 20lt or more so so the hunt was on for something better than motor oil and i came across someone on a forum somewhere that was using chain bar oil so i gave it a try - never went back engine oil and gave up on way oil altogether .

 

[joco-nz]

Its blue I tell you BLUE!

*beer*

 

[Blogwitch]

http://mytools.co.nz/collections/fluids-lubrication-oils/products/cimglide-68-slideway-oil-5-litre

About the same price we pay here in the UK

 

[joco-nz]

http://mytools.co.nz/collections/fluids-lubrication-oils/products/cimglide-68-slideway-oil-5-litre

About the same price we pay here in the UK

yup - thats the stuff I found. And litre for litre very close to the price of the chain/bar oil. Its what I'll look at for the next oil purchase once what I have has been used up. Which since I only have a litre probably wont take that long.

But its not BLUE.

 

[joco-nz]

While I still have to dismantle the main lead screw gear box to check if the oil ports are working (one has a suspicion of being blocked) I decided to "unclean" things for a little bit.

A donated "surplus to requirements" cutter which by some miracle was bang on centre in my stock tool post and the procurement of a sodding big M20 x 280mm long bolt saw my first ever cuts of metal on a lathe of any kind, ever. :hDe:

I don't have any fancy lubricants so some 20W oil mixed with a little white spirits to thin it up in an old plastic ice-cream container and chip brush to apply it set me up with lubricant for cutting that I hoped would do the business.

So to start with a simple facing and a small brush of lubrication. Set the cut up for about 0.2 to 0.3mm at ~320 rpm and hit the power cross feed. Victory! First ever cut done successfully (see pic). I then went on to play a little with depth and also feeding by hand.


Next was some experiments with the longitudinal power feed trying 320 and 600 rpm and variations in depth. Also some by hand to get a feel for that. Then it was taking my trusty digital callipers and seeing how accurate I could be Testing for 12mm, 10mm and 9mm diameter targets. After some consideration and a few trials I managed to get myself consistently to within 0.01 to 0.03mm on the reading against target. Now if I had a micrometer it would probably show I'm not that good. But even if I was actually out +/- 0.05-0.08 on my first crack at this, I'm happy. :thumbup:
Mind you I can see why people get DRO's. The dials are bit on the fiddly side, especially since I seem to have quite a bit of backlash in the cross slide that I need to figure out how to solve. I think there is some form of adjustment in the the brass nut. I just need to pull it all apart again to investigate.
The power feed is very cool but a bit scary. I had been warned about how easy it was to over flick the lever and I still managed to do it with much resulting cursing. Putting some stop pins or a much tougher indent is going to be a mod I'll look into pretty seriously.
Looking at all that crap building up on the ways, has anyone come up with a felt wiper mod for this lathe?


So after all that I got out the vacuum cleaner and started sucking up nasty metal bits, cleaned all the surfaces down, cleaned off the ways and re oiled. Such a cool machine.

Cheers,
James.

 

[bruedney]

Hi James

th_wav th_wav

Your lathe is dirty

Personally I think 600rpm is way too slow for 20mm with a brazed carbide tool. I would be using 900 at least on my little lathe.

Cheers
Bruce

 

[joco-nz]

Hi James

th_wav th_wav

Your lathe is dirty

Personally I think 600rpm is way too slow for 20mm with a brazed carbide tool. I would be using 900 at least on my little lathe.

Cheers
Bruce

Heh it worked. BUT I'm a noob so was taking it slow and using power feed meant the faster the lathe spun the faster things moved and I was nervous enough as it was.

As it is I managed to crash the bit :wall: :fan: stalled lathe - slammed the emergency stop. And the sodding carbide cracked and eventually chipped away. Lets just say the language that ensured would have made hardened sailors blush. I was NOT happy. On the flip slide I learned some valuable lessons on how to operate this thing.

J.

 

[Niels Abildgaard]

I don't have any fancy lubricants so some 20W oil mixed with a little white spirits to thin it up in an old plastic ice-cream container and chip brush to apply it set me up with lubricant for cutting that I hoped would do the business.



Next was some experiments with the longitudinal power feed trying 320 and 600 rpm and variations in depth. Also some by hand to get a feel for that. Then it was taking my trusty digital callipers and seeing how accurate I could be Testing for 12mm, 10mm and 9mm diameter targets. After some consideration and a few trials I managed to get myself consistently to within 0.01 to 0.03mm on the reading against target. Now if I had a micrometer it would probably show I'm not that good. But even if I was actually out +/- 0.05-0.08 on my first crack at this, I'm happy. :thumbup:

The power feed is very cool but a bit scary. I had been warned about how easy it was to over flick the lever and I still managed to do it with much resulting cursing. Putting some stop pins or a much tougher indent is going to be a mod I'll look into pretty seriously.
Looking at all that crap building up on the ways, has anyone come up with a felt wiper mod for this lathe?
View attachment 84406


Cheers,
James.

Hello James

As an old man that has survived lathes I must warn You.
Cutting that long thin thing without tailstock support with Your expirience on a new lathe is bordering on being dangerous, and You do not benefit much from lubricating when using carbide

 

[goldstar31]

Valuable lessons learned- fortunately without anything worse than pride!
As you a noobie, you should be using the lathe slowly and using hss or even carbon steel tools. You should have had either tailstock support or a fixed steady and even then the chances of cracking brittle carbides will still be high.

I recall suggesting how to tackle hss grinding earlier and again, remind you that almost everyone has to use hss or carbon steel in using twist drills.

No comfort forthcoming but to get a chipped brazed tungsten carbide bit 're-furbished' is adding yet another difficulty to an already full schedule of learning.

Well then?

Norman

 

[joco-nz]

Yup - that was why I was doing this slowly and doing very light cuts. The length protruding looks bigger than it is in the photo. But I'm getting my gear in place which includes a jacobs chuck, to allow setting up tail stock support. Plus getting cutting tooling in place.

All about the learning and I'm enjoying it.

Cheers,
J.

 

[rodw]

If you have an android phone, download FSwizard and use it to calculate cutting speeds for the material you are machining. The free one will do what you need. I had another one that was easier to use but I could not find it again after I upgraded phones. FSwizard might be on Apple as well.

Expect some crashes while you are learning and stand away from the chuck.

H&F have a book called Fitting and Machining that was written in the Aussie TAFE system. If its available there, might be worth grabbing it. 639 A4 pages.

 

[goldstar31]

Yup - that was why I was doing this slowly and doing very light cuts. The length protruding looks bigger than it is in the photo. But I'm getting my gear in place which includes a jacobs chuck, to allow setting up tail stock support. Plus getting cutting tooling in place.

All about the learning and I'm enjoying it.

Cheers,
J.

Yes, Yes--somewhat wearily!

But the odds are that your drill chuck will not be terribly accurate and you should have the minimum of a full hard centre and ideally another half centre as well as a somewhat inaccurate rotating centre.

Hint, once you get into full swing, life becomes even more expensive:wall:

Norman

 

[joco-nz]

Yes, Yes--somewhat wearily!

But the odds are that your drill chuck will not be terribly accurate and you should have the minimum of a full hard centre and ideally another half centre as well as a somewhat inaccurate rotating centre.

Hint, once you get into full swing, life becomes even more expensive:wall:

Norman

Yup - so I am finding. But that's ok, I set the budget aside to get the tooling, I'm just trying to maximise it.

Have the steadies, have the hard centre, don't have a half centre yet. Drill chuck is to make the spot holes to use the hard centre.

We'll get there. :thumbup: