Transistor ignition

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Gordon

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I have been playing around with transistor ignition systems lately and have not been having too much luck. I have tried the simple with just a single transistor and the more complicated circuits with two transistors and resistors etc like the TIM-4. A couple of years ago I purchased the Jerry Howell kit. On the single transistor circuit I can get a weak spark sometimes. On the TIM-4 I get nothing. On the Howell I can make the LED light but no spark. I have traced the circuit several times and cannot find any wrong connections. I have tried several different coils from one I purchased from Howell to coils from automotive coil over plug etc. Nothing seems to work. I am using 4 AA batteries for power.

I realize that no one can analyze a problem without seeing the equipment but does anyone have suggestions on what I can/should be checking for? I am not an electronics expert but it seems like sooner or later something should work. Others talk about using these circuits and have spark jump 1/2".

Thanks: Gordon
 
Gordon,
On the Jerry Howell TIM-6, make sure you are not connecting the mounting tab of the large switching transistor to ground. This tab is connected to the collector of the transistor which is nearly at battery potential in that circuit. From just your description of your results I suspect your little batteries aren't supplying the current needed to charge the coils you've tried. You need a couple amps peak charging current. Get hold of one of the small rechargeable lead acid 6V batteries for your experiments or at least move up to D cells. Your manual tests also need a way to insure the coil is only briefly charged (less than a few seconds) before triggering a spark or you can easily burn out the switching transistor. If you sketch the exact circuit and how you are triggering the device we can be of more help. The Jerry Howell TIM-6 is simple and works well, but there are a few caveats about mistreating it. You need to keep a spark plug on it to limit the voltage produced. Trying to make it generate 1/2" sparks is a quick way to destroy it. Terry
 
Here is the circuit I have been using.
http://www.5bears.com/tim4.htm

tim4.jpg
 
It is interesting that you mention using a larger battery. On the S&S system he mentions max of 5.5 volts and do not use rechargeable because they can have too high voltage. Since these ignition systems are used on RC aircraft I assumed that AA batteries were all that is needed.

At this point I assume that I have burned out something but I don't know how to test the individual components.

That is what you get in this type of hobby when you get a dummy like me trying to build stuff far above my ability.
 
It is interesting that you mention using a larger battery. On the S&S system he mentions max of 5.5 volts and do not use rechargeable because they can have too high voltage. Since these ignition systems are used on RC aircraft I assumed that AA batteries were all that is needed.

At this point I assume that I have burned out something but I don't know how to test the individual components.

That is what you get in this type of hobby when you get a dummy like me trying to build stuff far above my ability.

Gordon,
The battery comment on the S/S website pertains specifically to his CDI ignition modules and not to your transistorized ignitions. What I meant by bigger battery was more current capacity and not more terminal voltage. You might be better off with one of the S/S turnkey CDI modules. I used to use the TIM-6 ignitions, but for my last engine I have been trying out the CDI modules, and so far I've been happy with them. They seem to be pretty popular with the other engine builders as well. The caveat about keeping a sparkplug connected still applies, though. - Terry
 
Thank you for the replies. Now I really feel dumb. I did not realize that there are transistor ignition systems as well as CDI ignition systems. I have used the S/S system as well as the Hobby King system. I am trying to get a system which is compact and eliminates the points.It looks like the CDI system is actually the closest to what I am looking for. I guess that it is time to do some further investigation into the CDI. It looks like the coil is the main problem. This system is used on small engines so perhaps one of those coils would work.

The Hobby King works well but the spark plug cable is pretty clunky. Perhaps the outer shield could be removed and just grounded to the engine.

Gordon
 
The s/s coil will not work. The CDI board gives the coil a much higher voltage than 6 or 12 volts. If you are using a transistor ignition with points or a hall sensor to trigger you will need to stick with a automotive coil or a coil designed to operate on a 12 volt system.

If its compact you want the CDI system with the mini coil is going to be tough to beat.
 
The Hobby King works well but the spark plug cable is pretty clunky. Perhaps the outer shield could be removed and just grounded to the engine.

If it's the RXCEL CDI ignition (or a clone of it) that you mean, then yes the outer braid can be trimmed off then grounded to the engine discretely, and it looks a lot better.

One problem with these type ignitions is that they feature an auto-advance feature which can make timing them tricky when first setting them up. You turn the flywheel til a spark jumps, set your timing based on that, then when you try and start it you find the timing has jumped to 30 degrees advanced. This feature also relies on judging the engine speed by rotation of the trigger magnet and expects the magnet to come past every revolution. If you're making a 4 cycle engine and running the magnet at 1/2 crank speed, you need to mount 2 magnets 180 degrees apart to compensate for the reduced magnet speed.

So, after using a Hobbyking type CDI, I would use one again on a single cylinder engine, but for a multi I am going to use one of the tried and tested units from S/S Machine.
 
For those interested here is Ignition 101.

Aside from historical dinosaur there are two distinct method still viable for hobbyist: Ketterink is what you find on "Your father Oldsmobile" like the commercial says; and
Capacitive Discharge Ignition or CDI

Kettering - The energy for the spark is stored in the Coil Core's Magnetic field.
The points close for a fraction of the cam rotation applying battery voltage to the coil primary (low voltage low resistance winding).
When the points are close current build up rapidly.

Problem No1
If the engine stops where the point are closed the the current drain is high (several Amps) and coil overheating may results.
Cars have an ignition switch that hopefully is off when the engine is not running, plus for extra safety there is a bulky power

resistor limiting the current and the size of the coil can dissipate the heat if you were so unlucky to stall the engine and leave the

ignition ON.

When the points open, the magnetic field "disappears" and the energy contained in it must go somewhere.
Since there is a small capacitor (condenser) across the points, the circuit opening is not instantaneous but still very fast.
The voltage across both primary and secondary reverses and rise as fast as the capacitor can charge. Some of the energy in the

coil ends up in the capacitor but is only a small fraction of the enegy stored in the coil.

The coil's turn ratio is in the order of 1:100

When the voltage across the points/capacitor reach 150V the points have separated enough that no spark at the points is possible,

on the other hand the secondary voltage could be 15,000 V unless a spark has already occurred.

Keeping the point from arcing is essential to precise timing and long lasting points.

Problem No2
The coil size is dictated by the necessary energy storage, the high insulation necessary and the high temperature environment. In

theory a smaller coil could be built for model engines by relaxing the high temperature requirement, however the reduction is small and the small model market limit the incentive to make such smaller coils.

How do we reduce the size of the Ignition System?

Well the energy needed for each spark is a given, Industry standard sets the value at around 8 mJ.
How much is 8 mJ ? To get an idea 8 mJ of heat energy added to 1 milligram of water will raise the temperature less than 2 degrees Celsius.
8 mJ of energy deposited on your finger will not be felt thermally, however 8 mJ is much above the sensitivity of your nerve cells and a definit electrical stimulus is the result.

Energy stored in an inductor (or more precisely it the inductor magnetic field) is
W = 0.5 x L x I^2. Notice the term I square.
Any attempt to get high energy W by raising the current I requires a bigger wire.
There is a limit to the field magnetic strength in the core, known as saturation.
The inductance L is somewhat proportional to the volume so we have a barrier there.
All this means that the designer of ignition coils have already extracted the optimum design given the material and the constant of nature.

What about storing energy in a capacitor? Can we do it at higher density?
The energy stored in a capacitor is W = 0.5 x C x V^2
Raising V requires thicker insulators, but we have exceptionally better insulator that we have conductors.
Lets say we want to store 8 mJ at 400V, that requires less that 0.15 microfarad.
A 0.15 microfarad rated at 600V is no bigger than a walnut.

So what about charging a capacitor to 400V and dumping onto a 50:1 turn ratio transformer to elevate the voltage to 20,00V.
Well that is good but now we have a bulky transformer... not exactly, the transformer can be quite small.

First, transformer do not store energy therefore there are no fundamental limitation to size.
Second, transformer size is proportional to the pulse time length they have to handle.

It turns out that as long as we deliver the spark energy required to ignite the mixture, within limits, it is not very critical how long we take to deliver the energy.
In other words we can dump the capacitor energy in a much shorter time that the coil energy, therefore making the pulse transformer very small.

Luck has it that a short circuit is ideal to discharge a capacitor fast but is farthest from ideal to get the energy out of an inductor.
The spark is essentially a short.

There is still one problem: where do we get 400V ?
It turns out that semiconductor electronic can provide the necessary circuity in a very compact unit, exploiting the fact that the necessary transformer in the circuit operates at high frequency and is therefore minuscule.

In summary a bulky inductor can be replaced by one small capacitor, two small transformer and a thimble full of components at a fraction of the volume.

I have come to the conclusion that for scale model engine CDI is the only viable solution, if you can not hide an automotive coil.
 
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