Tools for a beginner

[Tin Falcon]

There are projects out there that you can make on a drill press. A mill is certainly more versatile but I have to agree that if you can only afford one machine tool it should be a lathe.
I would not even totally discount a craftsman 109. I have two in the basement .Tooling is relatively expensive and I have not taken time to make it,. Although it is in progress. I can not say I have made anything on them. they may have more limitations then most machines but they are a lathe in a similar class to the Sherline or Taig. Many Sherline accessories will fit.
The 7x 10 imports are also not a bad starter lathe.
Tin

 

[Cedge]

Easy there boys and girls... it's sounding suspiciously elitist, ala other machinist boards, in here. We're here to share the fun of making stock built engines. It matters not whether you own an Atlas, a Bridgeport, South Bend or Chinese iron. We each own what we can afford, fit into our shop space and provide power for.

Heck... I had a long discussion, yesterday, with a fellow who has built twenty-five I.C. and live steam engines, using nothing more than a drill press, a dremel and hand files. His finished work would make many a big iron owner cry.

This is not PM or HSM... Personal opinions are quite welcome, but let's keep things civil and friendly. If you really feel uncontrollably compelled to compare your tool size to the other guy's, please do so in private and away from pets and small children.

Steve

 

[Tin Falcon]

Steve:
Touche', well put. Motion seconded.
Those comparing tools size and heritage:
Lets not have to put this behavior to a vote!!!! Play nice boys!!!
Tin

 

[shred]

It's funny because I got an Atlas from a retired NASA machinist....

Came with a pile of tooling, some of which looks a lot like it came from the government over the years. A zillion lathe bits cut into wild and wacky shapes, a stack of 3/4" #2 MT drills (I'm a little afraid to run a Geiger counter over the one marked 'A.E.C.', and so on)

I'm still looking for some big old iron, but until then it and the other lathe work well enough.

 

[bigsteve]

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=110-0800&PMPXNO=1617068&PARTPG=INLMK3

$400 and free shipping through 12/31/07 if you use code HFSP27.

Thanks, Marv.

I will have that on my list...

 

[Bogstandard]

Have you made your decisions yet Steve, or are you totally confused by all the 'better than yours' banter.
If you root thru the reply posts you should get a bit of good info.
Sorry about that, we are trying our best to keep answers plain and simple, it isn't normally like this. Hopefully it will be a lot better from now on.

John

 

[bigsteve]

They have an 8x14 lathe at Harbor Freight I was considering, but at the price fo the one Marv suggested, I would have some extra money for bits and for barstock.

 

[mklotz]

A lathe is the ONLY machine that can reproduce it's self.
That statement alone should tell its versatility.


Rick

I've heard that bromide again and again and I don't believe it.

Yes, the lathe is the queen of machine tools. Most lathes could probably be used to produce a much smaller, much less capable lathe. However, I seriously doubt that any modern lathe could reproduce itself.

My (very ordinary) lathe has precision V-ways on the bed, a precision lead-screw about a foot shorter than the overall length of the lathe and motor drive pulleys with diameters larger than the lathe swing. It has precision roller bearings too. I'd dearly love to meet the machinist capable of accurately reproducing those features on my lathe.

 

[rake60]

I have to agree with your thoughts Marv.
Many parts of that theory have been explained to me over the years.
Milling the bed parts would require multiple set ups, and I would have to
question the running accuracy. Yet the earliest lathe beds were hand
finished with incredible accuracy.

There are a lot of interesting topics this could lead to.
The first gears were ground and filed by hand. Now there are high speed
gear cutting machines that would not be possible if it weren't for the
gears within them…

Rick

 

[mklotz]

Hand scraping a lathe bed isn't using a lathe to clone itself.

I don't doubt that one could make a serviceable lathe BY HAND from bits and pieces. In fact, it was done by British internees in a Japanese concentration camp. ISTR that they used it to make parts for prosthetics for their injured fellow internees.

But saying that a lathe, or any other machine, can reproduce itself is, IMO, complete rubbish. Just say that the lathe is the most versatile basic machine tool and let it go at that.

 

[rake60]

Works for me.
We'll leave that old claim to be proven by it's authors. :wink:
I'm certain I don't have the time left in my life to even attempt it.

Rick

 

[IanN]

Hi Marv and Rick,

While I agree with your comments about using a lathe to "reproduce itself" , I read the original statement a different way. What may have been meant was that "a lathe can be built without using any machines other than itself".

I first read about the method used to build a lathe from scratch many years ago. I was so fascinated by the idea that the ultimate accuracy of the machine was inherent in the construction sequence and process, and independent of any measurements, that I did build a little "watchmaker" size machine just to prove to myself that it could be done.

The machine that I constructed cleared 50mm dia over the cross slide (although I never attemped to actually turn anything that big on it) and was just under 150mm between centres. It served me well for some time.

Ian.

 

[macona]

Im not saying he needs to go right out and buy a monarch. I am saying buy something not chinese. Taiwan is OK, Sharp makes one hack of a hardinge copy.

Another good thing about buying a used older machine is they often come with all sorts of goodies. For example, last year I picked up an old Artisan lathe off craigslist. its about a 12x24 lathe. Quickchange gearbox, came with 5" cushman 3 jaw with all jaws, 6" cushman 4 jaw, 10" union 4 jaw, faceplate dead center for headstock, dead and live centers for tail, lantern tool posts, and steady rest. All for $400.

All I did to get it going is to replace a couple bushing and the cross slide screw. Also mogliced the nut for the feedscrew. Think it is from about 1905 or so. Full of Whitworth threaded fasteners which disappeared here in the US around 1906 and the chuck has been dated to about the same. Pics of it all cleaned up and up on Tony's page:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/artisan/page5.html

When you pick up any new out of the box lathe all you will usually get is a three jaw. Sometimes a steady. Everything else will be an additional expense either now or later and by the time you buy all that you will have into it what a used machine much more capable and will actually gain value over time. Especially a Southbend. Prices on ebay are crazy.

 

[Cedge]

Macona...
To quote an old movie line from Cool Hand Luke... "What we have here is a failure to communicate." While your scrounging skills and or tool budget might be self impressive, Bigsteve expressed budgetary limitations that many of us are quite familiar with. Your bias against chinese iron is becoming tiresome to those of us who own and use these small inexpensive machines. Those of us who go that route do so because we made a decision based on our own particular situations. You have zero right to second guess those reasons on this forum.

Let me repeat myself, once again... this time a bit more clearly. It ain't the size of your machine... it's how you use it and what you can do with it. While you are quite welcome to hold your opinions, we don't all share them and repeating them won't change that. One more instance of denigrating another member's choice of tooling is definitely not likely to endear you to the tool room moderators....clear and unambiguous?

Steve

 

[Tin Falcon]

Macona:
It appears to various members of the board and team members that you are coming across with a my tools are better than your attitude. You have a fine shop with great tools. But please do not put down any brand or category of tools. There is nothing wrong with appreciating quality tools. but please do not come across with you are not a machinist unless you have a _______ attitude. We are all here to learn , build a few engines and have fun.Building a shop is part of that. Every once in a while someone will come across a sweet deal on a great used American iron machine. Reality is we buy the best we can find ,afford, have room, for and can haul.I would love to have the budget room etc for a monarch .
You have the right to choose not to give shop room to a Chinese import machine that is OK that is your choice . Many of us here have chosen to have them in our shop. That is our choice. Lets all respect one another. We the Management team will not allow this forum to degrade into schoolyard competitive banter. This board was started to get away from that.
Tin Falcon

 

[Mcgyver]

A lathe is the ONLY machine that can reproduce it's self.
That statement alone should tell its versatility.


Rick

I've heard that bromide again and again and I don't believe it.

Yes, the lathe is the queen of machine tools. Most lathes could probably be used to produce a much smaller, much less capable lathe. However, I seriously doubt that any modern lathe could reproduce itself.
.

Marv, I've never taken that remark to mean it has to make an exact replica of itself, but simply as testimony as to how completely versatile a lathe is, that it can make another lathe.

To the question, in acquiring (anything?), there is an correlation between the time and effort put into the acquisition and the quality one will get per dollar. Sort of the old cliché, you can have it the best of quality, cheap and right away - which three would you like? You can pay Starrett $900 for a master precision level, mess around with flea bay for $100, or wait until one year some old boy gives you his because he likes you and wants to see it go to a good home.

My own opinion is that dollar for dollar old iron is a much great value....but I also recognize that many don't live near (former) industrial areas, have the time, have ability to fix/restore etc. two sides to it for sure. I guess the point is being in hurry (Christmas list) and being on a budget is a bit double jeopardy. With a little bit more time, perhaps you would stumble across one of cheaper imports used? or an old Sherline or unimat or something?

if there is a model engineering club in your area, this is a great way to network with some guys on used equipment. Also, keep watching Craiglist and Kijiji.

A thought on quality of tools. I know the master craftsman can produce wonders on old clapped out pieces of junk, but imo poor quality tools produce more frustration than parts and chases people away from the hobby - its tough enough being on the flat part of the learning curve.

I learned this watching my Dad, he'd always buy the cheapest woodworking (junk imo) and while he kept trying nothing ever came out that great and he was always a bit frustrated with it. Love him dearly, but he was the guy that would by 10 cheapo hammers a year and always be cursing because they were broken or lost, lol. made me mental to watch so i went the other way. Bought one hammer, an Estwing, 25 years ago and I know exactly where it is hanging.

Doesn't mean you can't do well at this because you can't put a new Hardinge on order, but imo you'd do better to take your time and strive for quality (whether its a mic or a lathe) where you can. I go for the good stuff because I'm cheap and have built a great collection of stuff over time for not very much money.

the question solicits opinions, so thats where its gone. Of course they'll vary and confilct, doesn't mean anything imo, just more fodder. take it all in and make the decisions best for you

 

[Hal]

The beginner should buy what they can afford and whats available to fit in the area they have to work with.

You can be playing and learning with on whatever you have. (about anything beats a file)

If you find that machining isn't your cup of tea you won't have as much invested.

Or if you find it fulfilling you can always upgrade if needed, when you find a better machine down the road.

You can waste years waiting for the right lathe or best deal to come along.
You just as well be having fun in the mean time.


Hal

 

[macona]

bigsteve specifically asked what would be good to start with on a limited budget. I gave my opinion. My opinion is not without basis in experience.

I started myself with a 7x12 from Grizzly and a HF Micromill and had these for many years. After all the countless hours and mods I had to do to get those things to even put out a decent finish I could have found a decent used machine. After owning these small machines I have every right to think they are wholly inadequate for anything much past light aluminum work.

Get the heaviest lathe (mass wise) you can afford. Mass means rigidity which equates to surface finish which also correlates to accuracy of your work. I was constantly battling chatter on the 7x12. Couldnt part with anything short of a hacksaw. Even after doing the compound mods, tapered gibs for the saddle, etc.

A lathe that you have to fight to get decent quality parts out of is no fun to learn on. Its a good way to turn yourself off from the hobby altogether.

A lathe or any other multi-hundred to several thousand dollar purchase should never be an rushed decision.

Taig or Sherline lathes and mills have very high reputations if you can live within their swings limitations. They could be a very good stopgap machine to keep you satiated until you do find the lathe you really want. They hold a good resale value so you should be able to get a good chunk out if you decide to sell. But its also handy to have a little high RPM lathe around to do stuff like needle jets and the like.

One thing is there was a short time that clausing lathes were labled atlas when clausing was bought out. These are good machines.

I created a search on craigshelper. It will search all of Texas's craiglists from one link for the word lathe. Only works with firefox though:

http://tinyurl.com/2beps9

A 12" or 14" Seneca Falls: $200 ea
http://dallas.craigslist.org/tls/443492347.html

Tony's page about Seneca Falls lathe:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/senecafalls/index.html

Is there any reason you cant hold on the money for a little past X-mas? Maybe put the money into an ear-marked savings account for the time something does pop up?

 

[Tin Falcon]

Macona: Great post a lot of insight and experience.

bigsteve specifically asked what would be good to start with on a limited budget. I gave my opinion. My opinion is not without basis in experience.

Please do not sound too defensive here. you have a lot of great things and experience to share we want to hear it.
Just be careful how you say it. Saying "I started out with small Chinese import machines and was disappointed in them. " has a whole different tone than "Do not buy chinese imports they are junk"
If you tell your wife or girl friend that she looks like the first day of spring she will love you for it. tell her she looks like the day after long hard winter you better duck.
Please try to use a tone of respect and diplomacy while expressing you opinion this will avoid miss- understandings.
Respectfully
Tin Falcon

 

[gilessim]

I bought a chinese lathe from ebay last year for about $400 stuff is more expensive in Italy becausethere are very few people like us, you can find very nice old Italian machines but they cost too, unless you get something really worn out and spend a year putting it right!, I wanted something that I could just "plug in and go" the Chinese lathe is fine only about .01mm run out on the chuck ,even when I put the four jaw, that I picked up somewhere else and fitted perfecly on the boss no mods!, and virtually no backlash. I'm a bit lazy and I just wanted to get going with some engines!, I also bought first ,on ebay, a little Taig for about $60 which came with a whole bunch of stuff!, including a verticle slide, and using only that and some files, I managed to complete a Stuart 10h unmachined kit ,so it is possible to do wonders with very little!. I then got the bug and decided to go for the chinese iron with the idea that maybe oneday another good deal will turn up and I can either sell the old one ,or keep it set up to do particular jobs, if you've got the room ,there's nothing wrong with having several machines, even a worn out machine can be very accurate if you know how to compensate! (also a good way to hone one's machining skills!). I also have now one of those minimills that Rake suggested and there's nothing wrong with that either, I'd love to have heavier iron but one day!, at least I've started creating things instead of waiting till I've got $10000 to buy exactly what I'd like!....Giles