Tooling suggestions sought

[ajoeiam]

Greetings

In process of wanting to buy tooling.
There are a LOT of options (like a stupid amount in fact).

What am I doing?
Fabricate anything and everything from some small stuff to large stuff (well beyond table top equipment capable stuff).
I've used brazed on carbide tooling, insert stuff, a very small amount of HSS tooling (mostly milling tools) and some other stuff when needed.
Trying to come up with a plan for a group of tools to start with.
Thinking I want to stay as flexible as possible so the same tool holders can be used on most any machine.

Not sure if I'm better buying a decent drill set (letter, number and fractional) to 1/2" and then to 1" by 16ths or should I just get same but as teeny weeny to 13.0 mm by 0.1 mm or should that be by 0.5 mm and then to 25 mm and that should be by 0.5 mm. I will be tapping holes in both fractional and in metric but I would rather not have drills in both series if I can help it.

What say you?

(Any suggestions for ways of getting anything on your list reasonably would be wonderful.
There are far too many things I want and far too little money to not try to reduce costs!)

 

[Vietti]

Don't know the answer to your questions but would suggest considering screw machine drill bits. They are stiffer than jobber bits, and can often be started true without a center drill. Should be cheaper but aren't.

 

[ShopShoe]

ajoeiam,

I tried to go back to see how your shop is equipped already. Can you tell us what you have now for machines and what you have made so far. This might provide a better place for us to start with recommendations.

--

For lathe tools, start by seeing what is included in the "sets" of pre-ground toolbits and the "sets" of insert tooling. that will give you an idea of what vendors consider "essential." I would say your approach so far seems a good place. You will probably want to be sure you have a good cutoff tool and a selection of boring bars in addition to the "usual" tools. If you are using a QCTP, you may want some more or some specialty holders.

Regarding Drills, You probably want the sizes you use the most in high-quality, but lesser-used sizes do not have to be as good (If you need to save money.)

For smaller machines and more rigidity, you may want some short ("screw machine") drills.

Everyone sells (in the USA) the 1/16 to 1/2 set of drills. You might just choose a good quality set.
I do mostly small work, so I use the #1-#60 number drills next in popularity. I have the letter drills, but I don't use them that much. I buy the drills larger than 1/2-inch as needed in 1/8 inch increments, except for the size just under 3/4, which is for use before using a 3/4-inch reamer.

I have sets of taps in UNC, UNF, Small-fastener down to #1 screw size, Metric, and a few forming taps. these I have in indexes that also hold accompanying correct-size drills for those taps and those are high-quality drills. I did not order these as sets: I purchased "Huot" indexes and ordered the taps and drills to fill them myself. I also ordered extra drills and taps to have on hand as I filled the boxes.

For careful hole locating, I have spotting drills in 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, and 3/8. These are not the same as center drills, which I also have. See discussions on this forum or various YouTube videos on what the differences are and how to use them. I don't always use the spootters, but if the job is critical, I have them and use them.

I have Countersinks in several sizes and angles. I also have counterbores for use with cap screws.

I have chucking reamers, but I bought them as needed, rather than a set.

You did not include supplies, but I'll include them anyway: Cutting Fluid and Tapping Fluid; Lubricants like way oil; non-detergent oil for the machines; grease; "Simple-Green" cleaner; Solvents like mineral spirits ("Paint thinner") and acetone; wiping cloths and rags; Q-tips and "Popsickle Sticks"; "Chip Brushes" in multiple sizes. Abrasive sheets.

--

I can do a Mill list, if you are interested. I'll stop with the list above so you can start thinking.

--ShopShoe

 

[mfrick]

For me carbide inserts are great but very expensive. So HSS tooling on the lathe and mill are the way to go if your on a tight budget. The key to HSS tooling for the lathe is to have a good pedestal grinder for grinding tools to the desired shape. HSS can be ground and honed to a very sharp edge and give a very nice finish, depending on what material your cutting. I'm old school been grinding tools for 55 years so it's old hand for me.
On the mill again carbide are great but budget restricts what I have and almost all milling is done with HSS tools. When buying taps and dies make sure there HSS and not carbon steel . It has taken lots of years to collect all the tools that I have which spread the cost out verse buying all at once.
Good luck on your new adventure.

Mike

 

[IanN]

Hi Ajoeiam,
Do not waste your money on drill sets. As others have pointed out you will only ever use 20% of them

When I started (UK) most of the industry I was in used Imperial dimensions and I invested in a full set of fractional-number-letter drills - never used most of them

In the early 70s the industry “went metric” and so I bought a full set of metric drills (0.1mm steps to 6mm then 0.5mm steps beyond) - never used most of them (slow learner aren’t I?)

You will only ever use tapping and clearance sizes for the threads you use, and reamer and clearance sizes for standard stock diameters

There is a view that having a range of drill bits allows you to use the next nearest size in an emergency if you break a drill. In my opinion it is better to buy a couple of correct sized drills so you always have a spare of the right size

I always use “new” drills for tapping and reaming (where dimensions are more critical) and replace them as they lose their edge. Use the reground drills as backups (I accept the drill manufacturer has better sharpening capability than my regrinding abilities)

There is another point of view - some people get their pleasure from owning and collecting tools rather than using them - there is nothing wrong with this, it is a perfectly valid hobby! Owning the full range of sizes will give you bragging rights down the pub:

“I have a full set of metric, fractional, letter and number drills in stub, jobber and long length - now buy me a pint!!!”

All the best,
Ian

 

[RM-MN]

There is a view that having a range of drill bits allows you to use the next nearest size in an emergency if you break a drill. In my opinion it is better to buy a couple of correct sized drills so you always have a spare of the right size

I live 20 miles from the nearest store that would carry individual drill bits. I also farm and at times the amount of time it would take to go buy a single drill bit is worth way more than the cost of the set of drill bits, plus the direct dollar cost of the round trip is near the cost of a moderately priced set of bits. I own several sets as I may need them in different locations and taking the walk to go get them is worth more to me than the cost of the bits. If I break a bit, I know where to find another in a short amount of time.

In my younger days I bought into the story that I needed an expensive set to get quality. They were not appreciably better than the cheaper sets I bought later. I could have gotten by with a set of number drills and a set of letter drills but those seem more suited to the machining center than out in the field.

 

[Apprentice707]

I would call myself a "Muddle Engineer" and certainly an opportunist. When I started building small steam engines I only bought what I needed for the next stage of the engine I was building, if I had 6 BA threaded holes to make, I bought a taper tap and a plug tap together with 2 tapping and 2 clearance drills all to the best quality I could afford. I have built up a nice collection of tools and of course, have replaced any broken items.
This has been pretty well my M.O. for the past 60 years, I do allow some "Must Have" buys and the odd indulgence.

Good luck with your projects

B

 

[awake]

I have to confess that I have bought - and primarily use - low-cost import sets of drill bits, primarily of the 1/16 - 1/2" by 64ths type. They all claim to be HSS, and I'm thinking they are. No, I don't use every drill bit in the set ... but I do use quite a lot of them over time. I also have one set of full numbered and lettered drill bits, mostly complete, which I bought used from a friend. These only get used when I particularly need a given size. Finally, I have a few drill bits that I reserved for drilling a hole to be tapped a certain size; these are generally higher quality.

The key to having all of this work, for me, is the ability to sharpen as needed. Often the cheap import bits are sharp out of the box, but not always. When sharpened, they work remarkably well, given their low cost. No, I don't attempt to sharpen something as small as 1/16", but anything from 1/8" and up I can sharpen successfully. Not always with the first try, mind - I am no expert, but over time I would claim to have become mostly competent.

As for other tooling ... I mostly use HSS, partly for cost, and partly because trying to choose among 1000 different configurations of carbide can be a wee bit overwhelming. Once again, this demands the ability to sharpen tooling.

And that may need a bit of comment: if you are trying to sharpen any tooling using the typical bench grinder that you can buy at the big box store, you are likely to be extremely frustrated. Even an expensive grinder may be an exercise in frustration, because typically the grinding wheels that are included by default are absolutely the wrong wheels to use. The problem is that the typical wheel is way, way too hard. Paradoxically, hardened steel, including HSS tooling, needs a softer wheel - something along the lines of an H (hardness is usually indicated by a letter). The super-hard wheels that typically come with grinders are only suitable for grinding mild steel.

Few things will make you feel like you have just taken a massive step forward like changing to the right type of grinding wheel and learning how to dress it properly. I speak from experience - I went far too long "getting by" with the wrong wheel on an under-powered grinder. I made myself a grinder powered by a 1/2 hp washing machine motor, sized to take 7" surface-grinder wheels. (Why? because it is much easier to find the right grade of wheel in a decent but affordable quality in that size than in the typical 6" size). Oh. My. Goodness! What an incredible difference - grinding even a large (1/2" square) HSS tool went from more than an hour of frustration to a few minutes of pure pleasure.

 

[Wizard69]

I haven't been here all summer but I have a few suggestions for you that diverge from most of what has already been said.
1. Get at least one good drill set, standard, and one metric, that are kept in pristine condition.
2. Keep a set of drill bits, possibly just fractionals, next to the drill press for "rough" work. These would be beater drills that have been manually reground.
3. Keep a set of drill bits that have been reground for brass, plastics and other materials that need a neutral rake. If you don't have an immediate need, at the very least buy an index so you have a place to put modified drill bits. These modified drill bits will eventually fill the index as you move from project to project that needs modified drills.
4. Buy some blank HSS steel to make special function tools as needed and to cover basic machining on the lathe.
5. In the same vain get a set of Carbide tool holders for the lathe.
6. For the mill I'd just buy carbide tooling myself.

Now These are basic tools, the most important thing to do is to avoid investing way too much cash in tooling that is more specialized until needed. Or to put it another way buy or build up tooling over time.

In the end you are far better off building up your tooling as you identify a need. To be honest you never indicated you interests here. There will be different needs depending upon you engine interest, size of the equipment, and your experience. For example I do a lot of welding and fabricating for shop and other interests. Welding implies a different set of equipment and tooling. If you are doing steam, materials for brazing and fabricating copper might be a requirement.

So if you are not laser focused on one segment of model engines your shop needs will be all over the place. The only logical path then is to buy as needed. This especially when the is a good posibility that you might not use the tools or euipment for a very long time after the project passes.

 

[SpringHollow]

I actually believe in owning several complete drill sets. And yes, many of the sizes I will never use. But I never know what I will need and where I live, to get a drill in an emergency requires hours of effort if a place is even open. So it depends upon your circumstances. However, I did not rush out and buy drill sets. Instead, I kept my eyes open and any time I found what I consider to be a killer deal, I would buy it. This meant 115 bit sets that were "used" but that had never been actually used or only a few were used, US made Cleveland, Norse, or equivalent, and at a cost of $100 or less. Sometimes, it can take a few years to find one to add to the collection. Other times, I find one after another and buy them for family and friends. I know I have more sets than make sense but knowing I have what I need brings peace of mind. I also enjoy owning good tools but I am cheap so I am not willing to pay what they are worth even when purchased used. By the way, in my opinion, quality used is almost always better than cheap new for tools that matter.

The cheap drill bits I reserve for wood etc or for a task that is likely to ruin the drill bit. What has also worked well for me is buying large random lots of used US made drill bits. There are some great deals to be had there. I group them by ranges of sizes. I also have some empty drill indices. I fill these with good used bits from the pile and use them for "field work". I also have one that I am slowly filling up with drill bits dedicated to brass, adding to the collection every time I need a new size.


Edit: Sorry, I missed Wizard69's post for some reason. The short answer is "what he said" except I do buy lots of used HSS end mills that are cheap and have worked well for me.

 

[ajoeiam]

I haven't been here all summer but I have a few suggestions for you that diverge from most of what has already been said.
1. Get at least one good drill set, standard, and one metric, that are kept in pristine condition.
2. Keep a set of drill bits, possibly just fractionals, next to the drill press for "rough" work. These would be beater drills that have been manually reground.
3. Keep a set of drill bits that have been reground for brass, plastics and other materials that need a neutral rake. If you don't have an immediate need, at the very least buy an index so you have a place to put modified drill bits. These modified drill bits will eventually fill the index as you move from project to project that needs modified drills.
4. Buy some blank HSS steel to make special function tools as needed and to cover basic machining on the lathe.
5. In the same vain get a set of Carbide tool holders for the lathe.
6. For the mill I'd just buy carbide tooling myself.

Now These are basic tools, the most important thing to do is to avoid investing way too much cash in tooling that is more specialized until needed. Or to put it another way buy or build up tooling over time.

In the end you are far better off building up your tooling as you identify a need. To be honest you never indicated you interests here. There will be different needs depending upon you engine interest, size of the equipment, and your experience. For example I do a lot of welding and fabricating for shop and other interests. Welding implies a different set of equipment and tooling. If you are doing steam, materials for brazing and fabricating copper might be a requirement.

So if you are not laser focused on one segment of model engines your shop needs will be all over the place. The only logical path then is to buy as needed. This especially when the is a good posibility that you might not use the tools or euipment for a very long time after the project passes.

Thanks not only to mr wizard the 69th but all of the other confreres for your responses.

There are a couple of different things that are driving my request.
1. wanting to know what is the 'tool collection' that others have
2. wanting to get ahead of even further difficulties in getting tooling 'reasonably'

I likely wasn't explicit enough but my equipment isn't anything like a 9 x 20 lathe or even a 13 x 40.
I'm looking to find a decent used 13 x 40 but its sorta funny - - - - that's real pricey country!
I can find decent larger stuff for far less than stuff in this 13 x 40 area.

Some further questions:
1. what do you do for drills larger than that 1/2" (13 mm)?
2. what do you have for cutting keyways?
3. what do you have for cutting woodruff keys (are you ever doing that)?
4. mill tooling - - - just a small shell cutter (carbide inserts)?
or do you have a couple three different sizes?

I am not just fabricating models that fit in a 150 mm cube (6").
Working of projects that are more like a 2 m cube (6').

Haven't got a mill yet - - am thinking a ram type but would like to get something with a 30 or 40 taper rather than the R-8 - - - that seems to not be so prevalent.

TIA

 

[Chiptosser]

If you have a project that you want to start. Buy as you go.
As you read through these comments, there is a general theme, buy quality! Find an old MSC industial catalogue and read through to understand the differences in drills and other tools. Do you have a Machinery's Handbook? Get one!
You will run into different situations where you will need multiple drills of the same and different sizes to complete a job, it all depends on how you go about doing a job and what sort of problem you may encounter. I have multiple index's at each mill and lathe.
Remember Quality over quantity, you won't regret it.

 

[Chiptosser]

Your newer equipment will have the 30,40 tapers. Woodruff key cutting, you will need a mill to do the larger than model size work. "Drill Sizes larger than 1/2 your going to have a taper shank drills or step shank, they go by a number of names.
Just stay with standard end mills to start out, until you know what you need in the way of shell mill. They can get very expensive.

 

[ShopShoe]

OK, "Can of Worms" time.

1. Larger than 1/2-inch drills. Called "Silver and Deming" drills in USA. I bought mine in sizes as needed. Cheap OK for aluminum. I do lots of projects that include welding and fabrication. I seem to need a 5/8 drill a lot and have multiples of that size.

2. Cutting Keyways gets into a specialized area. Cut into the OD of a shaft I mill them with end mills. I wish I had a horizontal Mill or a large mill with a horizontal adapter, but space and cost determine that I can't have either. Keying the ID of a gear or whatever seems to call for a good press and broaches. I have improvided work arounds to do that and I have a couple of broaches and have made the collars and shims to use them on small work with my very small press. Better may be in the future.

3. I haven't needed to cut a woodruff keyseat yet. I have one woodruff cutter that I have used to solve milling problems that a reqular end mill couldn't address.

4. Just like my drills, I have different end mills for different uses. My "general" box of end mills is the bargain 2-flute and 4-flute set that goes from 3/16 to 3/4. I also have a bargain set that goes from 3/4 to 1 1/2 inches. I have a bunch of very small end mills and I have added "aluminum" specialty cutters and higher-quality tooling as needed. I have replaced and ordered extras of these as time has passed. I have a general set of ball-end mills I have built up over time. I have also bought some corner-rounding end mills as the need arose. I have ordered from several vendors and I periodically put in orders that build up my inventory as money allows.

I designed and built some things with dovetail ways fairly early, so I have some dovetail cutters. I also have some chamfering cutters I have used for profiling. I have found that the multipurpose cutter that cuts 45-degrees and also drills and countersinks is a useful accessory.

I followed the advice on these forums that a fly cutter is a useful tool and have more than one of those. I use the one that takes standard 1/4-inch lathe toolbits the most and I grind the tools. I have one of the 2 1/2 inch face mills that uses plain inserts. I only have a benchtop machine, so I don't have the power for large cutters, thus no larger face mills and shell mills.

I use end mill and specialty holders (R-8), but I also have collets for some oddities and situations where the holders won't work well. I made a collet chuck adapter allowing me to use ER-11 collets with very small end mills and etc. where I need "reach" to an area of a workpiece where a larger chuck or holder would get in the way. I agree that having other than R-8 on a larger and more-powerful mill would be good.

If you don't have a mill yet, consider that your setup accessories are just as important as other tooling. It seems that the things you do would create a lot of workholding puzzles. One thing that I have that I seem to be able to be of use with odd items is a set of setup wedges. They are inexpensive and small to store, so not a major investment. I also do some occasional "not right-angled" setups, so I have protractors, precision steel triangles, and angle blocks. I covet a tilting table from time to time, but the blocks wre a better use of money: more was left over for other items. The same goes for the tilting vise: Want one but keep saving my money for other things. I also have a 6-inch rotary table.

 

[chrsbrbnk]

Pretty sure I have used all the drill sizes in both number and fractional and most of the letter. I like the harbor F $20 sets not quite as good as some of the drills I used tool and die making I buy their sets on when on sale and keep a couple in reserve. might want to stay away from Harbor end mills . check out the local online machinery auctions great source of endmills and drills and taps most are more than serviceable

 

[methuselah1]

Well, I started young, with a hateful 1930s lathe, (rubber mandrel, no handwheel divisions) and proceeded to build a Stuart 10V with nothing else but a worn out bench drill and hand tools. I have no idea, now, how I achieved this!

However, I bought my drills, taps and dies as they were needed; gauge drills two at a time. The taps and dies were in carbon steel, only second and plug taps, too. Carbon steel is harder and cheaper than HSS, unless it gets hot.

I also attended car boot sales. These were a great source of second hand tools at very cheap prices, and things like diamond paste and even lathes, on occasion. The tool stash started to build up.

Autojumbles and steam fairs were even better, never mind the model engineering shows- being obsolete, imperial and gauge drill stands, complete with drills could be bought for less than two packs of cigarettes.

A superior lathe was found second-hand for half a week's wages, from the factory owner I bought my metal stock from.

A good twin spindle drill was bought for the cost of a car tyre.

A shaper was bought for the cost of four. This performs many of the duties of a milling machine, without the expense of the cutters; shapers use lathe tools which I could sharpen myself. Even with a milling machine, the shaper is still saving money on those cutters. And it can cater for larger keyways, as can the lathe; hence I have only ever bought three small broaches.

in short, buy things as you need them, supplement tools at your leisure. Choose your machinery, and wait until the price suits you.

my workshop took a leisurely thirty years to build up, but having worked for Formula One, Ministry of Defence, and University concerns, whilst I don't do CNC, I have a greater and more versatile machining capacity than any of them. The University, on their £120K VMC, could not produce a job which I achieved in 30 minutes, at home, on one occasion.

A note regarding carbide, however. It requires speed, rigidity, and ongoing expenditure, and often, quite a large depth of cut if a decent finish is required. If you are not running a production business, it is not worth the expense, when HSS, cobalt or stellite will do perfectly good work on a lathe, and a double tool flycutter will do the same work as a facemill, albeit more slowly.

I very seldom use TC for anything other than chilled iron castings. Even then, brazed tools that I can sharpen to a true edge.

My work is jobbing, automotive and modelling, both metric and imperial; I still have very few metric drills, but I have made D bits and toolmaker's reamers from time to time. A lot cheaper than buying two boxed sets.

 

[ajoeiam]

Well - - - - fi I thought I had another 30 years - - - well - - - I would take that time to outfit things.
Except ------------ I'm thinking I want to put together a collection of tools to buy pdq.

drill bits to 1/2" and/or 13 mm - - - well that's easy.
question becomes do I run the metric at 0.1 mm or 0.5 mm?
then for taper shank drills - - - - I will be looking for auctions - - - but in my country - - - - - feeble few and far in between - - - so pointers to other options please?
do I just buy a bunch of brazed on carbide tooling for the lathe - - - - I've used that - - - lots so that's sorta easy
just finding a source - - - - somehow only the 1/4" and maybe 5/16" is sorta easy to find
I'd want some 3/8, 1/2 and maybe even 3/4"

inserts and holders - - - - crap - - - there's mountains of options and the problem is finding a supplier that isn't addicted to getting rich from every sale
(that last I'm finding hard to find!)

Mr Jeff seems to think that he knows something about business supply but his present efforts are bloody well useless.
Was looking for grinding and cutting discs - - - - internet seems like a tough place to find much of anything for 'serious' use.
(now if you're looking for *** toys and lingerie - - - - its a wonderful place! ARGH!!!!!!!!!!)

 

[methuselah1]

If you're going metric, go by 0.1. Most tapping sizes are in between 0.5 increments- 3.3, 4.2, 6.8 etc. Ditto for clearance sizes. There are imperial and gauge drill equivalents.

For bigger drill sizes "blacksmith's drills" are made- not fantastic practice, but bigger sizes, still with a 1/2"/ 13mm shank. Their name serves them well. I have used up to 20mm diameter in a push, they're probably made larger, too. How tightly can you do your chuck up?

If you're dealing with sheet or relatively thin work, there are cone cutters and step drills, too- if it's sheet, you can also use Qmax punches, Starrett hole saws, or, in conjunction with upping your life insurance, tank cutters.

Be warned that unlike offhand and other grinding wheels, angle grinder discs have an expiry date, due to the type of bond used, and are marked on the metal bit- by law. Don't get tucked in by a disreputable or ignorant vendor.

Where are you Joe? I don't know what MN means, being in GB. Don't you have Amazon where you are?

 

[MRA]

I am sure Methuselah knows more than I do - but I get by (here in mostly-metric UK) with a metric set of drills in 0.5s to 10mm, and an English set in 64ths to 1/2". For instance, M8 tapping size is more or less 17/64, M12 is more or less 13/32. For small sizes a 2nd hand set of number drills (which are really odd for most people and therefore overlooked) is very useful. For big drills I buy them when they come up cheap, but this is not relevant to modellers here. I wouldn't know how to advise anyone who wanted to go out and buy new stuff - I don't know how to do that (even for lingerie and *** toys ).

 

[awake]

I do like to buy used quality tooling when I find a good deal, but a major word of caution when it comes to buying even quality carbide-insert tooling: be very sure you know the availability and cost of the inserts before you buy the tool. I've read the regrets of people who got a great deal on a name-brand tool, only to find that inserts were unobtanium!