The French horizontal mill with slide valve drawn up by JD Waal in New Zealand

[Richard Hed]

I have been redrawing this so I can more easily understand what this engine is and I have come across a problem: There is a section that says such and such is in assembly dwg "106" but there is no 106. This assembly is with the cylinder and a special valve base which fits into the side groove of the cylinder. Well, there is no method of attaching the two and holding them so I assume they are silver soldered. I have very little silver soldering experience and as tiny as the part is, it looks like a bear. i have been reading the forum comments about silver soldering and that helps a bit. I will send a jpeg when I can get it converted from bmp.

 

[kvom]

Can you post a link to the plan(s) and part to which you are referring?

Remember that Julius builds these in Solidworks, and this software is perfectly capable of designing assemblies that can't be built as drawn.

 

[Richard Hed]

Can you post a link to the plan(s) and part to which you are referring?

Remember that Julius builds these in Solidworks, and this software is perfectly capable of designing assemblies that can't be built as drawn.

I don't know where the link is, but I have the .jpegs now.

I thimk this can be built, it's just that there is no way to attach these two parts unless they are silver soldered. I haven't lookt closely, but it might be possible also to attach some bolts somewher. I'll examine the parts to see if they can be redesigned for easier build. I was thimking that maybe some bolts in the end might work, but then there would almost for sure be leakage about the seal. If bolts were put in perpendicularly, the cylinder would most likely needs to thicker walled. I'm thimking silver solder is the only solution

 

[fcheslop]

Silver solder is the way I would do it. Then finish machining it
cheers

 

[James Barker]

Hello Richard, that is quite the undertaking you are going through there. I have quite the extensive library of Julius's work including some of his works that were never published and I can not find any such drawing reference you mention. Perhaps it was taken from an earlier set of drawings. And yes, I would have to agree, that after machining up the valve chest, silver solder it to the as yet unfinished cylinder and proceed to bore and cut the ports. I would very much like to know what drawing set you are working from in case I am missing something in my collection and also, why are you reinventing the wheel in redrawing what has already been rendered? I am not being confrontive, merely curious. Carry on...

BC1
Jim

 

[Richard Hed]

Hello Richard, that is quite the undertaking you are going through there. I have quite the extensive library of Julius's work including some of his works that were never published and I can not find any such drawing reference you mention. Perhaps it was taken from an earlier set of drawings. And yes, I would have to agree, that after machining up the valve chest, silver solder it to the as yet unfinished cylinder and proceed to bore and cut the ports. I would very much like to know what drawing set you are working from in case I am missing something in my collection and also, why are you reinventing the wheel in redrawing what has already been rendered? I am not being confrontive, merely curious. Carry on...

BC1
Jim

He says that Mr. WA van Schaik originally made this and he calls the number 60.01.44
The date says Nov 06. I redraw things I like in order to fully understand the dwg and engine and looks for mistakes or something I can change and make easier. this particular drawing is missing an assembly. the ports must be cut before silver soldering lest it be impossible to cut the ports. i don't take you as confrontational--wanna read something CONFRONTATIONAL? (Just kidding.) I call it the "French" because I have it in a French engine drawing folder but sometimes when downloading, things go places where they were not meant to go. ONe would thimk this should go in the "De Waal" folder, no?

 

[Richard Hed]

Silver solder is the way I would do it. Then finish machining it
cheers

Do you thimk this small piece would be easy to solder? Anything special a complete beginner needs to know? It is, after all, a rather complicated shape, even tho' it is very small. I'm wondering if all the walls between the exhaust and the input will be adequately sealed.

 

[James Barker]

Richard, I am glad to know I did not appear to you as "WTF"... I will continue to search as I think you may have a file or two I am missing. And without a reference to its size, can not make a good assessment of its complexity. Most silver solder operations require a close fit and all items must be free of contamination and a good amount of flux use and not too much solder. Care should be given to overheating a specific area lest the flux flash off to soon. It is not all that difficult, just a bit of practice is required. You can do it. Just allow the heat source to bring things up to temps and do not rush, you are not brazing or welding as such. Allow the heat to do the work. Heat the large pieces a bit longer as they will conduct heat into the smaller parts. could you possibly post up a general arrangement image of your project as Julius has provided. I am still in the mindset that the two pieces, cylinder and valve chest should be conjoined before continuing further... Keep the faith we are all here to assist....

BC1
Jim

 

[James Barker]

Nope, I found the drawings you spoke of.... the French reference threw me off. In looking at that assembly, you could do one of two things. I still believe that semi-finishing the valve chest and then silver soldering it to the cylinder and continue to mill out the ports and drill the central axis of the valve rod is the way to go. The ports themselves do not need to continue into the drilled steam passages of the cylinder. they can be left just shy of breaking through and merely a drilled passage continue into the cylinder. This would assure that the center lines of the cylinder and the valve chest were on the same axis and not skewed...

BC1
Jim

 

[Richard Hed]

Richard, I am glad to know I did not appear to you as "WTF"... I will continue to search as I think you may have a file or two I am missing. And without a reference to its size, can not make a good assessment of its complexity. Most silver solder operations require a close fit and all items must be free of contamination and a good amount of flux use and not too much solder. Care should be given to overheating a specific area lest the flux flash off to soon. It is not all that difficult, just a bit of practice is required. You can do it. Just allow the heat source to bring things up to temps and do not rush, you are not brazing or welding as such. Allow the heat to do the work. Heat the large pieces a bit longer as they will conduct heat into the smaller parts. could you possibly post up a general arrangement image of your project as Julius has provided. I am still in the mindset that the two pieces, cylinder and valve chest should be conjoined before continuing further... Keep the faith we are all here to assist....

BC1
Jim

My eddress is [email protected]. Give me a note and I can send yuou a present.

 

[Richard Hed]

Nope, I found the drawings you spoke of.... the French reference threw me off. In looking at that assembly, you could do one of two things. I still believe that semi-finishing the valve chest and then silver soldering it to the cylinder and continue to mill out the ports and drill the central axis of the valve rod is the way to go. The ports themselves do not need to continue into the drilled steam passages of the cylinder. they can be left just shy of breaking through and merely a drilled passage continue into the cylinder. This would assure that the center lines of the cylinder and the valve chest were on the same axis and not skewed...

BC1
Jim

Whoops, I didn't notice this post. The port into the cylinder itself could be machined after soldering, but it would be easier (I thimk) to do it before soldering and would not bite into the chest base. If you will note, the chest base has a passageway on each end feeding the cylinder passage that needs to be machined first, and while one is machining it, it is a simple bit of cutting to get at the passages for the steam--no worry about depth, as it is just a thru cut. as always, I try to get 90deg steam turns to be rounded insted of flat which causes the steam to bounce. (As much as any Jew would loathe henry ford, he hired a mathematician who increased his engines efficiency a great deal--he did this by rounding corners and never allowing tubes and passageways to be flat right angles and a bit of others tuff too)

Oh, the French Connection--I found that in a Frenchies download area, that's why I call it "French"--has more to do with the way I file and download than actual French, I guess.

 

[Jasonb]

If you don't want to solder it JBWeld would hold it together even for light pressure steam running, though I usually silver solder.

Drawings are not hard to find on Julius' site
http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/telechargements4/h-mill-slide-valve-09-02-01.pdf
Although milling the passages into the valve block's concave surface is a good way to do it with built up cylinders you could simply drill diagonally from each end of the cylinder into the inlet ports, 1000s of cylinder castings have been done that way. Also only drill one exhaust hole to suit your pipework, you don't need one top and bottom as shown.

 

[fcheslop]

Ive attached a link that gives some insight into hard soldering
https://www.cupalloys.co.uk/best-practice/For smaller engines working at low pressures I have just soft soldered them with no ill effect. The solder will always follow the heat

 

[kvom]

I used Loctite for a similar cylinder/steam chest joint on the Grasshopper, and it has held very well.

 

[stanstocker]

Greetings,

I'd lean towards silver soldering as well for this. Also note that the 26 mm OD of the cylinder body does seem to appear on the drawing, although the 13 mm mating radius on the valve housing base indirectly calls this dimension out. Looks like an interesting engine, sort of an odd mix of conventional and fabricated components.

 

[Richard Hed]

Greetings,

I'd lean towards silver soldering as well for this. Also note that the 26 mm OD of the cylinder body does seem to appear on the drawing, although the 13 mm mating radius on the valve housing base indirectly calls this dimension out. Looks like an interesting engine, sort of an odd mix of conventional and fabricated components.

yes, that "indirect" radius was very irritating, this happened a lot on this particular dwg. I don't know if this is part of the new theory of not dimensioning completely if one can get the dim off some other part or if it is a mistake. I used to do drafting and mistakes happened all the time so I let it go but missing dims can be a real pain. I am not sure if the European conventions allow for this but I for one would rather have the part OVER-dimmed than under!

 

[deeferdog]

Richard, I could not agree with you more. I have made two engines using drawings done by Mr De Waal and have struggled with the minimalist approach to dimensioning. I certainly do not want to appear ungrateful to a person who so generously gives his time and skill to the wider community for free, but I do wish his approach to describing the size of a part was more liberal. Possibly use a few more sheets of paper per plan as well. Cheers, Peter.

 

[Richard Hed]

Richard, I could not agree with you more. I have made two engines using drawings done by Mr De Waal and have struggled with the minimalist approach to dimensioning. I certainly do not want to appear ungrateful to a person who so generously gives his time and skill to the wider community for free, but I do wish his approach to describing the size of a part was more liberal. Possibly use a few more sheets of paper per plan as well. Cheers, Peter.

Yes, they are crampt but that is a part of the reason for re-drawing them. I just managed to finish the base for that dwg which was terribly under dimmed by taking the dwg I had managed to draw but since there were missing width dims, had to wing it. Well it was wrong by 2mm on each side, so i cut the thing apart and added 2mm on each side and it was perfect. One of the things I am changing when and if I get around to making this is the too liberal usage of brass. it's too expensive and steel is much easier to obtain. Of course, I would like to use cast iron for the cylinder but that is not likely. Maybe steel with a bronze sleeve. Would that be good?

You are correct too, when you thank Mr. De Waal for his good work. Like I says elsewhere, we make lots of mistakes as draughtsmen. (I love that old fashioned way of spelling.)

 

[Jasonb]

Cast Iron sticks OK with JBWeld
https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/building-a-bigger-benson-engine.16229/#post-166910

 

[James Barker]

Jason is correct, JB Weld is a friend to any modeler. It is now available in a High Heat formula that I am dying to try out. He is also correct in assembling the pieces and then performing the traditional diagonal drilling operations in order to achieve the port induction is a tried and true standard. Even simply employing the "harder" soft solders will stand up to the low pressures involved in this example.