still learning, what causes this texture

[werowance]

still learning casting and am getting usable parts but wanted to know why the rough texture? sand to wet maybe? im using a 30% bentonite from well drillers mud and 70% play sand. all sifted and hand mulled (that takes for ever and gives your hands a real good work out) this was just scrap aluminum from a junk mower engine

 

[GreenTwin]

The surface finish could be a result of the sand grain, or from overheating the melt, or a little of both.

If you used a pyrometer and poured at 1,350 (+ -), then it was the sand.

If you don't have a pyrometer, then you can judge when you hit pour temperature by looking at the meniscus at the edge of the molten meltal and the crucible.
As soon as the meniscus goes flat, you should pour immediately.

High velocity and turbulence should be avoided in a metal pour.
When the metal hits the basin at the bottom of your spure, it will roll back on itself, and entrain air, sand, and slag.
Keep the lip of the crucible as close to the top of the sprue as possible, and avoid the waterfall effect.

I think you could use a shorter sprue, and use a smooth transition into the gate(s).
Most people use a spure that is way too tall.
You spure could be 1/2 the height you have it.

All things considered, you have a nice casting, with a few minor inclusions.

I am not a greensand expert, and so others will have to chime in about water content and makeup of your sand.
Greensand mixes can be a bit of an art.
Typically you only add as much water as required to get the sand and clay to adhere.

If you want a really good surface finish, use Petrobond (tm), or its equivalent home-blend.
There is also an art to keeping oil-based sand conditioned, so expect a bit of a learning curve with that too if you try it.
Don't add oil to oil-based sand after you mix it, since I ruined my sand that way.
Add alcohol to condition it.

.

 

[werowance]

ok miniscus - is that where the metal sort of lips upward at the edge of the crucible? i dont have a pyrometer maybe Christmas this year but not yet. the center sprue is actually part of the piece so had to make the outer sprues the same length. yes i could cut down maybe half inch of the center piece but then i assume the outer sprues need to be that long as well in order to fill to the top?
on inclusions are you talking about what i circled in red? if so thats actually a piece of something black embedded into it. guessing something either in the metal or something in the sand that got past. it looks like a hole in it but its hard as a rock right there. which maybe another thing i need to learn about.
but thank you for the recomendations of shorter sprues and holding the crucible closer to the opening. i was holding up about 6 inches above the hole in my mold and then the long sprues on top of that

 

[GreenTwin]

Problems occur when you get high velocity in the molten metal, and it starts washing and eroding the sand mold.

You want a slow even fill, with no splashing, no waterfalling, and as smooth a transition as you can make from the bottom of the sprue into the gate.
Sometimes people use a horizontal runner off the bottom of the sprue, but it is not absolutely necessary.

I have not used the miniscus method, but I have seen others use it with great accuracy.
I will look for a photo of a guy that uses the miniscus only (no pyrometer) and you can see the surface finish he gets with his greensand.

I am not sure why you have a sprue on both sides.
One sprue and gate should do it.

Here is an example of the surface finish you can get with green sand, aluminum, and miniscus only.
I am guessing he used the riser on the opposite side to ensure a complete mold fill, but it is not necessarily required, especially if you have that riser above the center of your casting.

And I don't think you need the vent holes in the top of your mold, since you have that riser that will do the same thing.

Edit:
If you use a ceramic blanket furnace like the one in the photo below, be sure to spray on satanite to seal the fibers and prevent them from getting airborn.

.

 

[bluejets]

We get smooth as finish...use dry and very fine sand, ours is like powder.

 

[werowance]

Thanks BlueJets, on the fine sand part, Growing up my parents owned a comercial pottery which sold plates bowls etc to Parks Belk and other stores. when they retired there were sacks of "silica sand" that was such a fine mesh you were to always wear a respirator when messing with it. back then it was mentioned that that was to fine. it was like flour. also had plenty of sodium silicate and fine mesh bentonite back then. wish that was still available to me but alas its not. guess what i am asking is - is there a limit on how fine the sand needs to be? like a mesh or anything like that? yeah i could just buy some oilbond but when i priced it, to fill 2 five gallon buckets it was a few hundred dollars.

 

[GreenTwin]

I use OK85, which is a round grained sand from Oklahoma.
The paper below mentions that round-grain sand requires significantly less binder than non-round grain sand.

https://www.ask-chemicals.com/filea...rofessional_articles/EN/FMT_Article_part2.pdf

and another paper about sand and mesh size

https://www.coviacorp.com/media/kgkn2kal/incast_tds_10-55_chardon_821_0531_fdy_eng.pdf

I am not sure if the "85" in OK85 refers to the mesh size or something else, but this sand is about as fine as I would want to handle.
It is very dry, which is a requirement when using resin binder.

I very small hole in a container full of OK85 (like slightly larger than a pinhole) will allow the entire container of sand to drain out onto the floor, flowing like water.

I know Petrobond (tm) oil-based sand uses a very fine grain sand, but I am not sure the mesh size.
Petrobond normally comes pre-mixed with clay, and so the dust is contained by the oil in the sand/clay mix.

When loose sand gets too fine, you get dust everywhere, which can be a problem from many aspects.

.

 

[Vietti]

A possible source of nice sand is a fracking company, the sand acts as a propent to prop the newly formed fractures open. The Saint Peter sand is often the source. A fracking company might even give you some, I think they get it in bulk.

 

[100model]

but wanted to know why the rough texture?

Looking at your sand it is very coarse but what you can do is dust the mold with talcum powder and smooth it out using your finger or a spoon. pouring aluminium at a cooler temperature can give a smoother finish.

 

[werowance]

tried a different brand of sand. instead of play sand i picked up a bag of masonry sand. it in my opinion was no better but what i did find is that i reduced the amount of bentonite by 10% volume and also reduced the amount of water i used to wet the sand. this produced a much better casting. still nothing in the area of what you all have shown but also still very usable. im pretty sure if i get better mesh sand ill be doing much better castings. also my second casting i removed one of the side gates that is shown in my first picture in post at top as recomended and saved me alot of ali melting. i also poured slower and just right over top of the spru.

after machining here are the 2 useable pieces (non engine related) need to design the tops next and cast those

 

[GreenTwin]

Those castings look great.
Are you checking your pour temperature?

A pour temperature that is too high is often the problem, along with sand that is too coarse.

.

 

[SmithDoor]

still learning casting and am getting usable parts but wanted to know why the rough texture? sand to wet maybe? im using a 30% bentonite from well drillers mud and 70% play sand. all sifted and hand mulled (that takes for ever and gives your hands a real good work out) this was just scrap aluminum from a junk mower engine

View attachment 153924

View attachment 153925

View attachment 153926
View attachment 153927

It is the sand you are using .
I good for ventilation but not good for finishe.

Dave

 

[werowance]

Those castings look great.
Are you checking your pour temperature?

A pour temperature that is too high is often the problem, along with sand that is too coarse.

.

cant really check my temp. dont have a way to yet. but i did take note on how the metal was clinging to the side as in was it climbing up the side or level on the crucible. it was level. i fell that the pour was much cooler this time as well because it solidified much much faster than the first pour.

 

[LeRhone]

I did some casting and had a rough finish like your and it was recommended to dust the mold with fine powder . I used talcum powder and had great results.
I hope this was helpful.

 

[werowance]

Green Twin, i got some of that sand and yes its much much better. i think my mix was a little to wet still but i think its getting better.
in the picture the top wheel is a professional cast one from a kit for a traction engine i started but stopped while i get better / learn a little more. the bottom 2 are the ones for a different traction engine i cast last week on vacation. the bottom 2 i think are usable.

the alloy is unknown scrap aluminum

 

[werowance]

so im thinking of investing in a pyrometer but have no idea of what to look for. hoping its something i can point and click at the molten metal and not have to insert a probe into it but if thats not possible i can do a probe. but anyone have any recomendations of an entry level one?

 

[GreenTwin]

I am not sure if an IR pyrometer would work correctly or not.
I will have to research using that type with aluminum.

Some folks make their own pyrometers, and that can be done on a budget.
I have not made one, but they look relatively easy to make.

The connection point of the leads to the thermocouple can affect the accuracy of the pyrometer, but it is not really necessary to have an accurate temperature reading, but rather a consistent reading, so you can find a temperature that works well, and then duplicate that temperature, regardless of what that may be.

Generally aluminum 356 pours in the 1,350 F range.
Some go a little cooler, and some a little hotter, depending on whether the casting is thick or thin.

Here is one potential pyrometer that perhaps could be adapted to be a submersible type.
I see folks purchasing a piece of graphite rod, drilling a hole partway through it, and putting the thermocoulple inside.
The graphite is attached to a piece of electrical conduit, or similar steel tubing.

The wiring that goes to the thermocouple needs to be high temperature, and I think the white braided material is high temperature.
They also have round ceramic insulators that can be used on the hot end.

No guarantees as to how well this would work.
I need to research the home-built pyrometers a bit more.

.

 

[GreenTwin]

An infrared pyrometer would be the easiest route, but I am not positive they work with molten aluminum.
I am reading up on that.

Edit:
Metals with shiny surfaces may give a false reading.
I can't find a video where someone is using an IR pyrometer in a hobby setting with aluminum (yet).

 

[ddmckee54]

Metals with shiny surfaces definitely screw up IR probes. It doesn't work when I try to get the temperature of the hot block on my 3D printer directly from the aluminum. If I stick a piece of painter's tape on the hot block it works. The tape surviving casting temperatures is HIGHLY suspect.

 

[DaleW]

looking at the picture, I'm thinking more a sand issue than temperature. There are no signs of cold fold or excessive gas. I often see similar from students who have the wrong consistency mix, not rammed hard enough or not cleaned thoroughly enough. A IR temp gun with aluminium will give you some wild temperature differences and wont work to well. I generally pour my melt, if all returns (scrap) at approximately 780 C. Once your melt gets a dull red colour your pretty much on the money. I find with scrap that this temp gives much better fluidity, a good crystal flux helps a lot too.