Searching for milling machine

[Iron16]

hello everybody, i'm new in the world of model engine builders. I'm studying engine theory beacuse in the future i want to try
to build the engine for my model aircraft, probabily a 4 stroke, 50cc radial engine. Currently i have a small Proxxon lathe (PD 250) and i'm looking to buy a milling machine.
I think that the biggest piece of the engine will have a 80-90mm of diameter. For a milling machine, what do you think about Wabeco 1200?
Is it a good one? will it reach the requested tollerance (about 0.01mm), with some practice?

 

[RetNM]

From what I can tell from their specifications that you will not be able to hold 0.01mm tolerances. That number is for the concentricity of the spindle and not the accuracy of the machine. My best guess is that you may be able to hold between 0.03 and 0.05mm. Just a guess though.

The thing that is a little confusing is how I interpreted that its milling capabilities was that the maximum cut was a 10mm end mill at 10mm of depth. They show the same amount on both the 1.4 kW and the 2.5 kW machines, which leads me to believe that would be what the spindle is capable of. It is foggy when interpreting from one language to another much less the difference between methods of measurement, so I could be way off on that.

One thing for certain is that i would rather have any German machine over a Chinese one. Don't get in a hurry, look around and see what else is out there.

 

[Iron16]

Ok i understood, but for bulding an engine what type of milling machine do i need?
Is it possibile with the wabeco F1200 or do i need a bigger machine? Do you have any suggestion? Thank you

 

[RetNM]

Honestly, I don't believe that a 100-kg machine would be my choice. Then again, I have seen some amazing work coming off a Sherline lathe!

What's your budget? You realize that tooling isn't cheap? How easy is it to get parts for the machine if it needs to be repaired?

Ok, you want a name of some machines that can do the work. Grob, Kern, Mikron, Mori, Okuma and others that are readily available in Europe. If I were looking for a proven single mill that can most any type of milling, I would choose a Bridgeport Series 1 or clone equivalent. Yeah, they are a manual mill, but they are very versatile perhaps the most versatile manual mill. State side hear they run about $25-$30k new. Over in Europe an older used one might run around $4-$8k and weigh around 1000kg. A quick search came up with some refurbished ones in the UK with Digital Scales for £10,750 + vat, it also included power drives.

 

[deverett]

From what I can tell from their specifications that you will not be able to hold 0.01mm tolerances. That number is for the concentricity of the spindle and not the accuracy of the machine. My best guess is that you may be able to hold between 0.03 and 0.05mm. Just a guess though.

The thing that is a little confusing is how I interpreted that its milling capabilities was that the maximum cut was a 10mm end mill at 10mm of depth. They show the same amount on both the 1.4 kW and the 2.5 kW machines, which leads me to believe that would be what the spindle is capable of. It is foggy when interpreting from one language to another much less the difference between methods of measurement, so I could be way off on that.

One thing for certain is that i would rather have any German machine over a Chinese one. Don't get in a hurry, look around and see what else is out there.

I have a Wabeco F1410 milling machine.
Living in Ireland, I could not go down to a local machine stockist and have a look at various machines, so bought mine unseen thinking that German quality was worth the premium.
Now, 8 years later, I have to say I would not be of the same mind. Seig machines are basically copies of the Wabeco. OK, they do not have the linear guides or the 2 kw motor with 7500 rpm top speed.
I dislike very much the differential screw draw bar system. A simple top hat lock on the top of the spindle is much easier to use.
The built in inverter on mine failed after 5 years and the UK importer wanted about £1000 for a new motor/VFD combo. (It was not possible to buy the VFD separately. At that time, I could have bought a new Seig equivalent for that money. What I did was to buy a separate VFD and wire it up to the motor and that has not given me any problems.
That's enough on the subject.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

 

[Richard Hed]

Ok i understood, but for bulding an engine what type of milling machine do i need?
Is it possibile with the wabeco F1200 or do i need a bigger machine? Do you have any suggestion? Thank you

My questions simply are: How much $$ do you have and how much space do you have?

If you have plenty $$ get the biggest one that you can fit in your shop.

 

[clockworkcheval]

In my Dutch horological society there are three brands of milling machines popular: the EMCO F3, the ACIERA F3 and the past ten years the WABECO F 1200 has become quite popular. With judicious use, very good cleaning discipline and good awareness of the direction of play in nuts/spindels you can achieve high precision on each machine. The ACIERA is with Swiss industrial quality sturdiest, the WABECO is mechanical also good but electronically subject to hiccups and the EMCO is the lightest, with older machines subject to wear and tear in spindels, nuts and bearings.
As the thickness of a piece of cigarette paper is 0,02 - 0,03 mm I would not easily be convinced that an amateur machinist can hit a dimension to 0,01 mm at first go. But working towards it in final steps of say 0,03 - 0,05 mm is certainly possible on all three machines, provided your cutting tool is adequate and your measuring equipment is calibrated and up to this accuracy! Always easier to work to a fit with the mating part. The most regular causes for dimensional deviation are dirt in the collets and bad alignments of slides and workpiece.
In our club workshop we have all three types with the WABECO the most popular for ease of handling. That said we circumvent the awkward differential screw bar system by sticking to collets.
If you can get one the ACIERA F1 is the utmost nice milling machine for small work. We have one and use it preferably for very small very precise components.

 

[minh-thanh]

. Currently i have a small Proxxon lathe (PD 250) and i'm looking to buy a milling machine.
I think that the biggest piece of the engine will have a 80-90mm of diameter. For a milling machine, what do you think about Wabeco 1200?
Is it a good one? will it reach the requested tollerance (about 0.01mm), with some practice?

Hi !
If I,, I would use that lathe to make an engine, after the first engine has run I will consider other machines and tools.
With that lathe, I think I can make up to I2 and V2 engines, maybe more

 

[Jasonb]

There are members on here that have the Webeco machines, one uses his to make engine parts for model aircraft that compete at worlds level where the tolerances are very tight so in the right hands they are capable of good work.

Myself I have a Sieg, (Sogi in Italy) same make that Dave mentions and a little over 100kg, this album of mine is probably a good example that engines can be made on light weight benchtop hobby machines. Model Engineer

You might also want to look at the Ceriani mills HOME

 

[HMEL]

Ok i understood, but for bulding an engine what type of milling machine do i need?
Is it possibile with the wabeco F1200 or do i need a bigger machine? Do you have any suggestion? Thank you

Your selection of a milling machine should consider its spindle for tooling along with the travel in x,y,z. There are at least three or more choices for the spindle taper. What you have to consider is what is the largest part you want to make. The parts are usually smaller then the what you are assembling. There are other options such as a dro, and power feeds. Then of course there is the CNC mills. But I would start with what you can afford. Lots of videos on you tube where shops are demonstrated with their equipment. I was in the process of buying one but then I found a maker space which has two. No matter what you select there will be a learning curve along with the cost of tooling which will be at least half or more what the machine might cost. And remember what one guy might choose another might go to another type smaller or larger.

 

[holmes_ca]

Iron 16,
Have you considered a Taig Mill?

 

[Iron16]

I don't know this brand. Is it good?

 

[awerby]

They are good. They are made in the USA (in Arizona) and come completely equipped with CNC controls and software that will work on any Windows computer. Ball screws, a rotary 4th axis, and a high-torque variable speed spindle motor are available options, as well as an extended Y axis for wider parts. The prices are quite reasonable for what you get. You can find out more about these things here: Taig CNC Micro Mills

 

[byawor]

Building that engine is difficult even for an experienced machinist with a well tooled shop. Selecting a milling machine will be the least of your problems.
Set your sights much lower and start with a project that you may be able to finish.

 

[minh-thanh]

Set your sights much lower and start with a project that you may be able to finish.

I totally agree .
But it's hard to know someone's abilities...

 

[Fireguy976]

As a newbie, I am going to echo the comment, on going to YouTube videos to see what other model machinists are using.
I believe this will be some of the best "advice" you will receive.
That being said, your availability of machines where you are, could be considerably different then the UK people.

As others have also said, don't box yourself into a machine that requires specific type of tooling you will need, based on the machine specs.

For example, and please this is just for argument sake, someone Gives you a Ferrari, but its operational costs are such that you cant afford to run it, or pay for parts,,,
The cheaper milling machine now could be a headache down the road.
Just trying to help,,,,

 

[holmes_ca]

Iron 16

If you are curious about the Taig Mill and interested in what it is capable of machining you can go to my channel Walter Maisey on youtube I have lots of videos of projects there,

 

[awake]

I have read somewhere that in general it is harder to achieve .01mm on a mill than it is on a lathe. I don't know how true that is across the board, but it certainly resonates with my experience. For a manual machine, the skill of the operator will definitely play a huge role; I don't know how much that applies to CNC.