Piston clearance in IC engine and other questions

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bullpeters

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Building my first IC engine. 25mm bore and planning on similar Stroke.
The AL piston is a VERY good fit, slides freely when dry but compresion with oil.
Will I need piston rings?
If so, I would like to use I rings. What's clearance will I need?
Finally, how will I measure that clearance? I have digital caliper and a dial indicator.
Thanks
 
Also should read o rings. I am on my phone on a bumpy bus...
 
The standard for high performance glow plug ignition engines running methanol based fuels is a high silicon aluminum piston fitted to a chromed brass sleeve. 25 mm is about the largest bore engine using this system. The piston is fitted in a tapered bore with around .007" (.18 mm) clearance at the bottom and zero clearance at the top of the piston's travel. You need to run something like 10 to 20% oil. Castor oil is the old time favorite, but there are good synthetic oils available.

If you are planning to run spark ignition with gasoline as the fuel, I would run a ringed piston in some sort of hard liner. This could be chromed or heat treated steel. The life of a cast iron or unhardened steel liner would be limited in any kind of a high performance engine. Commercial small gasoline engines use a hard coated aluminum bore with very hard rings. The clearance isn't as critical and depends on the cooling. Water cooled liners won't expand much compared to the piston so I would consider at least .004" (.1 mm) clearance. Both systems require a very round cylinder bore, and the bore with a ringed piston should be straight.

Lohring Miller
 
My apologies for the framing of the initial question.
Four stroke engine with spark ignition.
My concerns are what clearance between piston and cylinder?
If the clearance is .1mm, how to measure it?
.1 seems to be the resolution of most every tool I have. Must I buy a micrometer?
Any suggestions as to O ring size? Groove size?
I am leaning towards just doing it and see what happens
Thank you for ur reply
 
I have built many i.c. engines and have a bit to say. First of all, aluminum has a much higher rate of expansion under heat than almost any of the other metals, so it is a poor choice for a piston. If you get a good enough fit for it to not leak compression, it will expand and seize in the bore after a very short run time. The material of choice for both cylinder and piston is grey cast iron. They expand at similar rates from heat, and the natural carbon in the metal acts as a lubricant. I always bore or ream the cylinder to size first. After boring, it is a very good idea to hone the cylinder internally to get rid of most of the machining marks that will be left in it from the initial machining operation. A simple 3 stone brake cylinder hone is ideal for this. Do not use cutting fluid when working with cast iron. The cylinder should then be lapped internally, either with a commercial lap or by turning a round aluminum bar to .001" (0.025mm) less than the cylinder i.d., coating it with 600 grit lapping paste, and running it through the length of the cylinder with a turning motion back and forth until no more resistance is felt. Wash the cylinder thoroughly with a strong solvent and soap and water and scrub the i.d. with a toothbrush to remove any trace amounts of abrasive lapping compound. Turn the piston o.d. to .001" (.025mm) less than the finished cylinder diameter, coat the piston with 600 grit lapping paste, and attach some kind of handle (I use the connecting rod) and repeat the lapping process to lap the piston to the i.d. of the cylinder. Repeat the washing process to both piston and cylinder. I work in imperial units, so I can not give you any specifics on what o-ring to use, only that it should be high temperature Viton. In the range of diameters you are working with, Viton is only available in a 1/16" cross section, which translates roughly to 1.5mm. Contact your o-ring supplier and they will give you the info for the correct depth and width of o-ring slot.---Brian
 
I recently built the Philip Duclos "odds and Ends" hit and miss i.c. engine, which has a 1" diameter piston, very close to your 25mm. There is info about the cylinder on post #44 and info about the piston on posts 236 and 237. I had to make a new piston with Viton O-rings because I couldn't get the original cast iron rings to seal well enough. If you are going to build i.c. engines, you MUST have a micrometer. For most things, you can use a 25mm max opening micrometer, but a 50mm max. opening is even nicer. The tool which you use to measure small inside diameters is a spring loaded device with a T handle. The two measuring elements telescope into each other and are locked in that position by turning the T handle. The end is inserted into the bore to be measured, then the T handle is turned to release the two spring loaded elements. They spring out and make contact with the inside of the cylinder bore, and again are locked in place by turning the T handle. Then the tool is removed from the bore and the distance over the ends is read with a micrometer. --This is a rather stunning trick, and one which must be practiced a few times before you can really trust your readings. Anyone who has ever built an i.c. engine will tell you that calipers in any form only serve to get you "close". The degree of accuracy required to build an i.c. engine demands a micrometer.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist...dds-n-ends-hit-miss-engine-19901/index24.html
 
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And one last blab before I go and leave you in peace.--Finish the cylinder first. Then machine the piston to match the bore. That is much easier, because when you get down into the "very close" range you can keep shutting the lathe off and trying the piston for fit into the cylinder without removing the piston from the chuck. Remember--if you take off .003 too much, you have ruined the piston and must start again, so sneak up on your final dimension very carefully. It is almost impossible to do it the other way around by finishing the piston first, unless you have a series of adjustable reamers for the cylinder.---Brian
 
In my defense, I should say that my experience and recommendations are for small, high performance two stroke racing engines, both spark and glow ignition. If you want to run an 8 hp., 26 cc engine up to 25,000 rpm, there is no substitute for an aluminum piston. If you are building low rpm, low output engines where service life isn't an issue, a large variety of materials will work. Cast iron is the old time choice both for ringed and ringless piston and liners. Fox has used this system on some of their engines nearly as long as I have been alive. O-rings can't possibly work as a piston seal in any moderate to high performance internal combustion engine. All the engines I have worked with use commercial heat resistant, steel or stainless steel rings. A thin, single ring is standard. A friend has experimented with cast iron rings in these engines, but he hasn't found power gains as far as I know. I would seriously consider buying commercial rings. OS makes a lot of different size engines and Tower Hobbies stocks the 27mm rings. You might even consider more stock parts.

When we started working with a commercial engine builder (Quickdraw) their soft steel liners had a very short life. They switched to nitrided liners. They could add as much as 1/4 hp with the right hone pattern. A chromed liner would be even better, but that costs more. All the other engines we work with have either aluminum or brass liners with chrome or similar hard coatings. Even with their higher rate of expansion, it is common to increase the clearance .002" or more in the ring area of water cooled engines to prevent seizing.

Out of round cylinders also can seize pistons like the picture below. The builder, CMB, tried the same aluminum piston in a chromed aluminum liner they used in their glow ignition engines, but it never worked. We destroyed a lot of piston and liner sets like the one in the second picture below. More about our development of that 35 cc engine can be found here.

I use a Sunnen bore gauge set against a Mitutoyo digital micrometer to check bores. Again, none of this is necessary for low performance engines, but they will still run better with round cylinders. The above posts are great descriptions of measuring and lapping methods amateur builders have used for a long time. You can get great results by hand fitting pistons to liners without knowing the exact dimensions of either.

Lohring Miller

siezed piston.JPG


P1010764.JPG
 
I should add that this OS FS-62 engine has a 25 mm bore with a 20.6 mm stroke. You could buy the piston, rings, and liner for it and save a lot of work. The other parts might be a help as well depending on what you're planning. These engines are often converted to spark ignition with gasoline fuel. Just use 18% oil like OS recommends.

Lohring Miller
 
Thanks
Have taken all on board
Especially the directive to buy micrometer
"I told u I need one and this guy says so!!!"
I will move on and post pictures if it looks anything like an engine anytime soon
Viton O rings in Australia???
Anyone??
 

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