NAMES 2022

[Zeb]

I think a solution would be to make it outdoors, similar to how stationary engine shows are run. Shoot, get a bunch of hit-and-miss engines running for people to enjoy (molten metal and toxic smoke helps too). Those shows naturally spread people apart some and the engines provide a bit of a barrier. Your standard tables could still be setup and people can manage their own level of risk.

We recently had a bad outbreak at work from two vaccinated individuals who didn't realize they were spreading it. The local hospitals I know of that are hurting have always had beds just greater than usual staff shortages. I hope we can still be friends and no one gets sick here.

 

[GreenTwin]

I have to agree with Rich.
I have never in my lifetime seen so many ad hominen attacks for people like myself who simply want to discuss the pro's and con's of what is and is not working to help with COVID.
Its like some prerecorded script has been burned into half the population's memory, and there is no discussion allowed.
They can only repeat the mainstream media talking points, regardless of any scientific evidence to the contrary.
"Correct speak" is the only speak allowed (right out of the book 1984 for sure).

As I mentioned on another forum (and was roundly attacked viciously with all sorts of slights and name calling), in the old days, people expressed their various opinions, many of which differed, and everyone respected the other's point of view, even if they did not agree with it.

Now days, any attempt at rationally and logically discussing COVID is often met with unprecedented open hostility.
I have never seen anything like it in my lifetime.
Even the Vietnam war was not this contentious (that point may be debatable with some).

Unfortunately it is no longer about COVID at all, but about power, control and domination.
Even Stevie Wonder could clearly see this.

Its about shouting others down, and intimidating them into submission; or as Rich says, the topic has been totally politicized, and I would say weaponized too.
Your job and the ability to travel, buy food, and get medical treatment often now depends on your political leanings, and how accurately you parrot the party line, not on your actual needs.
People are having medical decisions forced upon them by the STATE; they are no longer allowed to make their own medical decisions.
This is the most un-American and un-freedom thing I have ever seen in my lifetime.
I would expect such a thing in perhaps the USSR or somewhere, but never dreamed we would see it here in the US.
If forced vaccinations comes to pass in America, then FREEDOM as we know it (concerning all sorts of things) is just a fading distant memory, and a quaint relic of the past.

I am open to any discussion, and I always consider every aspect of a problem, but that is not what many are doing these days.

Best to live and let live on this topic, and agree to disagree, because otherwise the topic becomes toxic, and we all lose.
Note that "personal attacks" are not equal to "discussion".

Express your ideas/thoughts, speak your mind, and then let it go.
Get back to building engines.
Life is short.

.

 

[Richard Hed]

I have to agree with Rich.
I have never in my lifetime seen so many ad hominen attacks for people like myself who simply want to discuss the pro's and con's of what is and is not working to help with COVID.
Its like some prerecorded script has been burned into half the population's memory, and there is no discussion allowed.
They can only repeat the mainstream media talking points, regardless of any scientific evidence to the contrary.
"Correct speak" is the only speak allowed (right out of the book 1984 for sure).

As I mentioned on another forum (and was roundly attacked viciously with all sorts of slights and name calling), in the old days, people expressed their various opinions, many of which differed, and everyone respected the other's point of view, even if they did not agree with it.

Now days, any attempt at rationally and logically discussing COVID is often met with unprecedented open hostility.
I have never seen anything like it in my lifetime.
Even the Vietnam war was not this contentious (that point may be debatable with some).

Unfortunately it is no longer about COVID at all, but about power, control and domination.
Even Stevie Wonder could clearly see this.

Its about shouting others down, and intimidating them into submission; or as Rich says, the topic has been totally politicized, and I would say weaponized too.
Your job and the ability to travel, buy food, and get medical treatment often now depends on your political leanings, and how accurately you parrot the party line, not on your actual needs.
People are having medical decisions forced upon them by the STATE; they are no longer allowed to make their own medical decisions.
This is the most un-American and un-freedom thing I have ever seen in my lifetime.
I would expect such a thing in perhaps the USSR or somewhere, but never dreamed we would see it here in the US.
If forced vaccinations comes to pass in America, then FREEDOM as we know it (concerning all sorts of things) is just a fading distant memory, and a quaint relic of the past.

I am open to any discussion, and I always consider every aspect of a problem, but that is not what many are doing these days.

Best to live and let live on this topic, and agree to disagree, because otherwise the topic becomes toxic, and we all lose.
Note that "personal attacks" are not equal to "discussion".

Express your ideas/thoughts, speak your mind, and then let it go.
Get back to building engines.
Life is short.

.

As I have said elsewhere, 150 years ago, people read all the books they could find and even owned one or two themselves. They read newspapers and passed them around till they fell apart, and people discussed ideas and politics, *** and religion over their cup o' java while they lit their pipes (they didn't have other drugs yet). They generally got along till the war of southern aggression.

Ha ha, I lied about the *** part--they certainly did NOT discuss ***! However, you might notice how (besides the covid lockstep conformity propaganda) the same is being pushed on us-- the lgbtqxyz by the national media corportation. Certainly, Joseph Goebbels would be very jealous of how our media has advanced to the point that it is capable of making us believe WE thot of what the puppet masters want us to believe. Heil Goebbels! Seig Heil! All this is why I DO NOT watch or listen to national media if I can help it. However, sometimes I am bombarded with it at the supermarket!

 

[clockworkcheval]

Gentlemen, it seems to me that a discussion on vaccination doesn't belong on this forum.

 

[Richard Hed]

Gentlemen, it seems to me that a discussion on vaccination doesn't belong on this forum.

Why not? NAMES is being shut down by the alledged corvid virus, can we not complain?

(PS, I am not a gentleman, but I AM a scholar.)

 

[clockworkcheval]

Ah, when you are not a gentleman you can disregard my remarks.

 

[Charles Lamont]

Why not? NAMES is being shut down by the alledged corvid virus, can we not complain?

(PS, I am not a gentleman, but I AM a scholar.)

Because this is a model making forum, and yours and my political opinions have no place here. Please be so good as to find somwhere else to bloviate.

(PS, If you say so.)

 

[BIGTREV]

Just to be clear, if you ascribe to such views, we're not going to be friends.

Pushing the 'natural immunity' idea means supporting killing vulnerable populations. And likely leads to overloading the medical system so that people that could be saved die in a hallway, instead. Go back and check how Sweden and Great Britain got along when they pursued this concept.

Craig

Craig, I wasn't aware we took the " natural immunity " route here in Great Britain?

 

[stanstocker]

Craig, I wasn't aware we took the " natural immunity " route here in Great Britain?

Never let the truth interfere with a good story!
Cheers,
Stan

 

[vederstein]

The end of civility in political discussions occurred in lockstep with the growth of social media. People are much less restrained when there's no repercussions (e.g actual threat of bodily harm, or even being their point of view just challenged) in the realm of typing your opinion on a keyboard.

The issue now is that people have become used this type of interaction. Directness, vulgarity, and hardheadedness has come full circle. It's now socially permitted in a public live forum, but only if those speaking have views you personally agree with. If you don't agree then the directness, vulgarity, and hardheadedness is not permitted because it hurts the brain of the small minded. The left figured this out before the Right though. That's how you have "mostly peaceful protests", BLM activists a foot away from a restaurant patron yelling "SAY IT! SAY IT", etc.

During the Obama years, the Left harshly criticized the Tea Party organization. Note that the Tea Party was before BLM and Antifa, and their rallies had fiery language, but the rallies were generally peaceful and clean. Now the Left has protests that often turn into riots and looting. Eventually the Right will follow. The end result won't be pretty unless we start to acknowledge that these are just people we disagree with and aren't an evil to be destroyed. I believe the Left are the bigger hypocrites. They do what they expouse to despise.

I fully admit I lean heavily libertarian. Translation: I don't give a crap about you, your beliefs, or your causes. I don't expect you to give a rats *** about me either. Now, lets do some business.

...Ved.

 

[stanstocker]

<snipped>


Its about shouting others down, and intimidating them into submission; or as Rich says, the topic has been totally politicized, and I would say weaponized too.
Your job and the ability to travel, buy food, and get medical treatment often now depends on your political leanings, and how accurately you parrot the party line, not on your actual needs.
People are having medical decisions forced upon them by the STATE; they are no longer allowed to make their own medical decisions.
This is the most un-American and un-freedom thing I have ever seen in my lifetime.
I would expect such a thing in perhaps the USSR or somewhere, but never dreamed we would see it here in the US.
If forced vaccinations comes to pass in America, then FREEDOM as we know it (concerning all sorts of things) is just a fading distant memory, and a quaint relic of the past.
<snipped>

Express your ideas/thoughts, speak your mind, and then let it go.
Get back to building engines.
Life is short.

.
[/QUOTE]

It's worth mentioning that international travel in the 1970's required quite a few more vaccinations on record than those required just within the US.

The US has required vaccination for many childhood diseases to be allowed in school for many years, mandatory vaccination isn't anything new.

I'm perfectly happy to have had vaccines instead of waking up dead from some disease or crippled with polio as a child. I chose to get the covid vaccine as the risks of the disease seem to be greater than the risks of the vaccine. It's a gamble perhaps.

I've seen several folks I know badly damaged by after effects of covid, they are not having good lives and just hope to get back to being OK. I haven't seen anyone I know damaged by the vaccine.

In another post there was mention of N95 masks passing particles larger than virus particles. This is true. It also overlooks that the masks don't really do all that much to protect the wearer from bare virus particles, they protect others a bit if the wearer is also a carrier. When you sneeze or cough the stuff expelled isn't bare naked virus particles, it's spit, phlegm, snot, and moisture that may contain virus particles. Masks reduce the amount of this stuff getting in the air, and reduces the velocity of the ejecta. If someone near you sneezes, your mask might keep the airborne ejecta and it's virus load out of your body, might not. Any time you can reduce exposure you lower risk. If someone manages to sneeze plain dry virus particles towards you, masked or not, odds are you're totally hosed if unvaccinated and perhaps hosed if vaccinated. Fortunately living things don't eject a lot of dry particles.

No perfect solutions, many lies and strident demands, orders, and BS from both sides of the deal. Then add in the general anti vaxxers with their conspiracy theories and it just gets stupid.

Not telling others what to do, I got the vaccine and am scheduled for the booster. A very devout Catholic I know was really torn about getting the vaccine as fetal tissue is involved in some of the development. OK, I can respect that he has very strong beliefs, and at least his reasons for not wanting the vaccine are based on something besides rumor mongers and cross linked conspiracy web sites. You could also take the position that it's based on his blind allegiance to an authority with a multi century history of demanding obedience, just not an elected one. Most things have a flip side.

I'm really on the fence about attending Cabin Fever this year, if things stay about the same for covid I'll probably go, but if there's a post holiday surge I'll sadly have to missing adding the 25th (now semi) annual button to the collection.

Now I'm back to the shop, although today is likely to be spent putting my vintage Dynaco ST120 power amp back in good order rather than machine work.

Best to all, vaccinated or not!
Stan

 

[trlvn]

Craig, I wasn't aware we took the " natural immunity " route here in Great Britain?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...-herd-immunity-to-beat-coronavirus-we-need-it

 

[trlvn]

So, Mother nature is "Pushing " natural immunity--not me
Don't you have a curiosity on why Vacinated people get the virus ?
I have a science based mind and find it interesting that "science" is denied by those who profess it ?
Sample#1 N95 masks, (the best) have a 5 micron porosity and the virus protein is 1micron is size-hello ?
#2- In all other pandemics (history) all sorts of solutions were entertained --except now , "Only one" solution is acceptable- Hello?
#3 Have you looked at India ? -larger than the UK and Sweden -dense pop and only 1/8 of UK deaths- Why ?
These are some things to look at , and study, and ask...scientifically, not politically !
Rich

The thing is that you have no science on your side. All your musings have been utterly refuted by actual science.

I'm not going to spend my time overturning your trolling. I'm reminded of George Carlin's astute observation:

Never argue with an *****. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Craig

 

[BIGTREV]

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...-herd-immunity-to-beat-coronavirus-we-need-it

Don't believe all you read on the internet LOL

 

[Richard Carlstedt]

I am not a troll
Notice I use my real name, not a handle !
I stated 3 facts , and your reply is opinion
Rich

On another point, research Thalidomide and maybe you will understand points of view

 

[Richard Hed]

Gives me another year to get the Greene engine done.

I forgot, which Greene are you doing?

 

[Richard Hed]

Just to be clear, if you ascribe to such views, we're not going to be friends.

Pushing the 'natural immunity' idea means supporting killing vulnerable populations. And likely leads to overloading the medical system so that people that could be saved die in a hallway, instead. Go back and check how Sweden and Great Britain got along when they pursued this concept.

Craig

You DO have a point, If one looks back at the time of the Black Plague, one sees an example of natural immunity. There WAS NO immunity to the plague at that time. It wiped out millions of people. Small pox is also a killer but a solution to that was discovered by innoculating people with COW POX a relative to Small Pox. Just so you knows, Beethoven had the small pox and survived--whew, what a good thing, lest we be left without his 9th Symphony! It is thot that around 750 AD that some person in Europe developed a mutation which helped against certain deadly plagues. It is now thot that 1 out of 5 white people of European descent have that mutation. You must also remember the difference between bacterial diseases and viral diseases. Bacteria are actually alive while virus' are not. The virus takes a living host for it to be a parasite on. Our skin, the air, our blood are covered with, filled with and floating with bacteria and viruses. Our bodies naturally simply kill most of that or don't allow it into the body.

If you will remember, it is NOT the rat in the black plague that causes the plague, it is not even the flea that causes the plague--it is a virus or bacteria in the flea on the rat in the house of mostly the poor. But now look at the size of each participant. A rat is approx. 1/000 the size of a human. The flea is approx. 1/1000000th the size of a rat, a bacteria is approx 1/1000000th the size of the flea, and a virus is immensely smaller than a bacteria. A virus is essentially a very large molecule. Our ancestors developed immunities from most of the viruses AND bacteria over millions of years. (BTW, there is one author named Bakker who disputes that the dinosaurs were wiped out because of a meteor, and claimes they were wiped out by virus or bacterial plague). The problem is that if we are immune to certain diseases, then we no longer need the immunity--right? convoluted but true. So just like the mutation in 750AD we can also UNmutate some of our immunities. This could happen approx every 2000 years or so. Fortunately,, as someone has said, "herd immunity" is still at work and those who are UNmutated are far more likely to die and so have less chance to pass on their UNmutate genes.

My point here is that natural immunity will not and does not cover all possible diseases. New diseases come and go like the plague--literally. If one looks up the history of the plagues, they seem to happen approx every 20 years--most are smaller that what we normally thimpfk of as a plague, yet they still are plagues and in different parts of the world. Now we have technology (and understanding of the causes) that can mitigate the diseases which increases the population which increases the population DENSITY which increases the likelyhood of plague! Ultimately, overpopulation will kill us.

This brings us to conspiracy. (Does I needs to remind you what A. Sutton said about conspiracies?) There is a lot of evidence that whomever is in actual control of the governments on this planet, realize that population must be controlled, reduced or eliminated. Some believe that all those deadly viruses comeing out of Africa are tests being made to kill 9/10 of the population (Look up the Georgia Guide Stones). It is thot that when there is a cure for deadly virus, that the elite will choose who will live and who will die, then giving the cure to those they want to live, will allow the plague upon the world. -- This is what I believe.

If you have traveled to SE Asia, you will understand that the rabbit like breeding simply HAS TO STOP! Asia has, what? 3/4ths the world population? A quick estimate of Asian population is 5B, the rest of the world about 2B. I'm surprized the planet doesn't wobble out of control and crash into the sun.

 

[gbritnell]

Gentlemen,
While all this talk about Covid is somewhat related to NAMES in the sense that it is Covid that's keeping it from being held I think it got way off track into a political issue. Is it possible for one of the administrators to close this being as feelings are being hurt and opinions being chastised. This isn't what this forum is about.

 

[mrehmus]

So, Mother nature is "Pushing " natural immunity--not me
Don't you have a curiosity on why Vacinated people get the virus ?
I have a science based mind and find it interesting that "science" is denied by those who profess it ?
Sample#1 N95 masks, (the best) have a 5 micron porosity and the virus protein is 1micron is size-hello ?
#2- In all other pandemics (history) all sorts of solutions were entertained --except now , "Only one" solution is acceptable- Hello?
#3 Have you looked at India ? -larger than the UK and Sweden -dense pop and only 1/8 of UK deaths- Why ?
These are some things to look at , and study, and ask...scientifically, not politically !
Rich

Your numbers are wrong about N95 masks:
Performance of N95 respirators: filtration efficiency for airborne microbial and inert particles
Y Qian 1, K Willeke, S A Grinshpun, J Donnelly, C C Coffey
Affiliations collapse
Affiliation

• 1Department of Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, OH 45267-0056, USA. [email protected]

• PMID: 9487666
• DOI: 10.1080/15428119891010389

Abstract
In 1995 the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health issued new regulations for nonpowered particulate respirators (42 CFR Part 84). A new filter certification system also was created. Among the new particulate respirators that have entered the market, the N95 respirator is the most commonly used in industrial and health care environments. The filtration efficiencies of unloaded N95 particulate respirators have been compared with those of dust/mist (DM) and dust/fume/mist (DFM) respirators certified under the former regulations (30 CFR Part 11). Through laboratory tests with NaCl certification aerosols and measurements with particle-size spectrometers, N95 respirators were found to have higher filtration efficiencies than DM and DFM respirators and noncertified surgical masks. N95 respirators made by different companies were found to have different filtration efficiencies for the most penetrating particle size (0.1 to 0.3 micron), but all were at least 95% efficient at that size for NaCl particles. Above the most penetrating particle size the filtration efficiency increases with size; it reaches approximately 99.5% or higher at about 0.75 micron. Tests with bacteria of size and shape similar to Mycobacterium tuberculosis also showed filtration efficiencies of 99.5% or higher.

 

[GreenTwin]

Gentlemen,
While all this talk about Covid is somewhat related to NAMES in the sense that it is Covid that's keeping it from being held I think it got way off track into a political issue. Is it possible for one of the administrators to close this being as feelings are being hurt and opinions being chastised. This isn't what this forum is about.

I am all for closing threads that get too contentious, but I am not for closing threads due to people resorting to name calling, instead of just engaging in an informative converstation. Closing the thread just means that those who resort to name calling get to dictate what the rest of us are capable of discussing in a perfectly civilized and gentlemanly way.
I am not offended by anyone else's opinions, and without understanding how others feel about any topic then it is impossible to ever try and come together to resolve any issues.

Nobody should be afraid to express a genuine opinion in this country about Covid, since I think in the end it is about getting over the entire Covid thing and getting back to the things we love, such as NAMES.
Covid is affecting model making whether we want it to or not.

Lets have a good civil discussion, as we have done here for a very long time (I was here back in 2011), and not resort to heavy handed tactics in order to please a few. Let this forum be for all voices, and let everyone be heard.
Keep it polite, we are all in this together.

Agree to disagree; that is what it is all about.
I have great respect for ALL the members here. I want to hear what everyone has to say.
This group is capable of having a good conversation about anything.
Respect the fact that we have differences, and that we often approach things differently in life; that is is OK !!!

.