Having noticed John saying that the elbow engine chucks oil all over the place, I wondered about using teflon or graphite "cylinder liners" with a flange on the bottom to keep them in place?.Also can anyone tell me what advantage bronze has over brass for the cylinders? apart from it being harder, as I have a chunk of 30mm bar that I've never tried turning. One more thing, what about free turning stainless for the bases-bearing surfaces? as I don't have any cast iron..Giles
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B
Bogstandard
Guest
Hi Steve,
Don't blame me for your loss of sleep, you're the one who's making it, I had enough sleep loss when I made mine.
I too put my own stamp on mine, I profiled the front standard and put a 'spinner' on it to make it look a bit more menacing.
Giles,
I only used cast iron for the bearing because I used brass instead of bronze for the cylinders. The plan I think calls for mild steel for the bearing block and bronze for the cylinders. So your bronze bar will be ideal. Be carefull when machining your bronze, if your tools aren't sharp enough and it 'rubs' instead of cutting, it will form a tough skin that is terrible to cut thru. Drilling is the usual time it happens, let the pressure off a bit and let it skid and you will find you won't be able to drill any more.
For turning I always use a razor sharp HSS cutter. There are of course many types of bronzes, I'm just starting to use a lot of aluminium bronze which if I try to cut with tipped tools just skids, but use sharp HSS and it cuts like butter.
By the way, you will not be able to stop the oil from going everywhere, it comes from the bearing faces on the piston blocks, if you try to seal them any better to stop the oil, the engine just locks up, it needs a running clearance. Mine is about 0.001" to 0.002", if you can get it any better than that, best of luck.
John
Don't blame me for your loss of sleep, you're the one who's making it, I had enough sleep loss when I made mine.
I too put my own stamp on mine, I profiled the front standard and put a 'spinner' on it to make it look a bit more menacing.
Giles,
I only used cast iron for the bearing because I used brass instead of bronze for the cylinders. The plan I think calls for mild steel for the bearing block and bronze for the cylinders. So your bronze bar will be ideal. Be carefull when machining your bronze, if your tools aren't sharp enough and it 'rubs' instead of cutting, it will form a tough skin that is terrible to cut thru. Drilling is the usual time it happens, let the pressure off a bit and let it skid and you will find you won't be able to drill any more.
For turning I always use a razor sharp HSS cutter. There are of course many types of bronzes, I'm just starting to use a lot of aluminium bronze which if I try to cut with tipped tools just skids, but use sharp HSS and it cuts like butter.
By the way, you will not be able to stop the oil from going everywhere, it comes from the bearing faces on the piston blocks, if you try to seal them any better to stop the oil, the engine just locks up, it needs a running clearance. Mine is about 0.001" to 0.002", if you can get it any better than that, best of luck.
John
B
Bogstandard
Guest
Steve,
I noticed further up the page about you talking about loss of vocational training.
It seems now that everything we buy will be made in the far east, mainly because we don't have apprenticeships in the UK any more (for about the last 10 to 15 years) so no one is being taught the ways to make or repair things. I don't know whether it is the same in the US, but at one time a person was recognised for his skills and abilities and got the respect that that commanded.
Nowadays a person is judged by how much money they have (usually got by working the lowest paid to an early grave) not by their abilities, and we are becoming a country of money pushers and grabbers, rather than one of the world leaders in engineering design and production, as we used to be.
A very sorry state indeed, and it is getting worse, because all the people who have the skills are getting older with no one to replace them as they retire or snuff it.
Thank God I won't be around when they fly a service engineer half way around the world to change the lightbulb in a billionaires bedside table lamp.
You think I am joking, I used to work for an American company in the UK and had to drive 120 miles round trip to a trade fair to show the boss how to put on an english electrical socket plug. It was beneath him to ask for help from the people in the trade stands around him (1. He had lots of money & 2. He came from NY and had the worst attitude I have ever seen in a fellow human being).
John
I noticed further up the page about you talking about loss of vocational training.
It seems now that everything we buy will be made in the far east, mainly because we don't have apprenticeships in the UK any more (for about the last 10 to 15 years) so no one is being taught the ways to make or repair things. I don't know whether it is the same in the US, but at one time a person was recognised for his skills and abilities and got the respect that that commanded.
Nowadays a person is judged by how much money they have (usually got by working the lowest paid to an early grave) not by their abilities, and we are becoming a country of money pushers and grabbers, rather than one of the world leaders in engineering design and production, as we used to be.
A very sorry state indeed, and it is getting worse, because all the people who have the skills are getting older with no one to replace them as they retire or snuff it.
Thank God I won't be around when they fly a service engineer half way around the world to change the lightbulb in a billionaires bedside table lamp.
You think I am joking, I used to work for an American company in the UK and had to drive 120 miles round trip to a trade fair to show the boss how to put on an english electrical socket plug. It was beneath him to ask for help from the people in the trade stands around him (1. He had lots of money & 2. He came from NY and had the worst attitude I have ever seen in a fellow human being).
John
Well John, you certainly encouraged me to give it a try. Heres my results after about three days of trial and error. Will it ever run ? Dont know, but am having a great time learning. Thanks for all the tips and tricks. Still plugging along.
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Nice. I cant wait to try one for myself
rake60
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It's a simple engine to make parts for.
Here's mine.
It doesn't work! :?
Now it's time to go back and check all the parts for square and parallel.
One of the guys at work made the statement "You are bull-headed and
anal enough to get it to run"
Was that a compliment??????
Here's mine.
It doesn't work! :?
Now it's time to go back and check all the parts for square and parallel.
One of the guys at work made the statement "You are bull-headed and
anal enough to get it to run"
Was that a compliment??????
In the little spare time I had today I started laying out the stuff to make the "little elbow engine". Now when you guys say "It won't work" bothers me. But I won't let that stop me from trying.
I have never seen a project that has got me so fired up about building something as this silly (maybe not so silly) engine.
My neighbor is a Hot Rodder and when I told him I was going to build a six-cylinder engine with only five moving parts, well he still looks over the fence and shakes his head. Im not going to tell him how it works until I get mine running
Wish me luck
Mel
I have never seen a project that has got me so fired up about building something as this silly (maybe not so silly) engine.
My neighbor is a Hot Rodder and when I told him I was going to build a six-cylinder engine with only five moving parts, well he still looks over the fence and shakes his head. Im not going to tell him how it works until I get mine running
Wish me luck
Mel
B
Bogstandard
Guest
Hey lads,
Thats great, really started something here.
Just keep trying to get them to run, the satisfaction is amazing.
Tips for getting to run.
Don't worry about the timing, if you have made to drawing, the timing is right, so you can ignore that.
The verticals should be checked for squareness.
The cylinder blocks need to rotate with very little or no up and down and side to side movement.
Make sure the pistons are not too long and are totally square. For length use the drawing measurement and take off about an extra 0.020" for running clearance.
Make the mounting holes for the bottom bearing very slightly adjustable (open them out a bit).
Plenty of lube and GENTLY try to turn engine by turning both the bottom block and flywheel at the same time, don't force it, you will knock the pistons out of square. Slacken off the bottom bearing mounting and see if it will then turn. If it does get it to a turning point and very gently tighten up, if it tightens up again just nip the bolts and tap with a plastic screwdriver handle to get it to a turning point, 1 or 2 thou the wrong way is all it needs to lock up. Just go very steady.
Mine took 3 days to get running, so don't despair, put it away for a bit, make another bit for another engine then come back and try again.
John
Thats great, really started something here.
Just keep trying to get them to run, the satisfaction is amazing.
Tips for getting to run.
Don't worry about the timing, if you have made to drawing, the timing is right, so you can ignore that.
The verticals should be checked for squareness.
The cylinder blocks need to rotate with very little or no up and down and side to side movement.
Make sure the pistons are not too long and are totally square. For length use the drawing measurement and take off about an extra 0.020" for running clearance.
Make the mounting holes for the bottom bearing very slightly adjustable (open them out a bit).
Plenty of lube and GENTLY try to turn engine by turning both the bottom block and flywheel at the same time, don't force it, you will knock the pistons out of square. Slacken off the bottom bearing mounting and see if it will then turn. If it does get it to a turning point and very gently tighten up, if it tightens up again just nip the bolts and tap with a plastic screwdriver handle to get it to a turning point, 1 or 2 thou the wrong way is all it needs to lock up. Just go very steady.
Mine took 3 days to get running, so don't despair, put it away for a bit, make another bit for another engine then come back and try again.
John
Cedge
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The other place where binding can sneak into the system is the flywheel support coumn. There is just enough play in the peice to allow a bit of shifting about. The trick is to move it around a little and see if the friction level is decreased. The other place it's easy to run afoul is if a piston end is a little long. This will cause binding in both cylinders and dead stop the motor. It's mostly a "feel" adjustment.
The one that I repaired had me ready for a stiff drink more than once, until I spotted the over length end on just one of the 3 piston sets. Like John said... removed about .020 and she was off to the races.
Steve
The one that I repaired had me ready for a stiff drink more than once, until I spotted the over length end on just one of the 3 piston sets. Like John said... removed about .020 and she was off to the races.
Steve
B
Bogstandard
Guest
I can see another build coming on here, but slightly different.
Just to see if it was a fluke that I got mine running.
John
Just to see if it was a fluke that I got mine running.
John
This is an interesting engine. The only thing I don't have is the drill rod.
Ralph,
Your engine is coming along real nice. It is a joy to watch it being made.
John,
Wich surface did you use as your datum line?
Also,
Square seems to be the majic word on this engine. Would it be in order to true a surface finish on the base plate before starting to make the other parts?
Kenny
Ralph,
Your engine is coming along real nice. It is a joy to watch it being made.
John,
Wich surface did you use as your datum line?
Also,
Square seems to be the majic word on this engine. Would it be in order to true a surface finish on the base plate before starting to make the other parts?
Kenny
B
Bogstandard
Guest
Hi Kenny,
The datum face has to be the top face of the baseplate. The upright has to be totally square to this. If everything else is made square and parallel no major problems should appear.
Before profiling the tapered sides to the upright, if you can't get it square on the miller, mount it into your four jaw chuck and face the end in the lathe, it's almost guaranteed to be square then. Then use that square face as a second datum to get your upright dimensions.
Ralph,
Looking good, the best part is yet to come.
John
The datum face has to be the top face of the baseplate. The upright has to be totally square to this. If everything else is made square and parallel no major problems should appear.
Before profiling the tapered sides to the upright, if you can't get it square on the miller, mount it into your four jaw chuck and face the end in the lathe, it's almost guaranteed to be square then. Then use that square face as a second datum to get your upright dimensions.
Ralph,
Looking good, the best part is yet to come.
John
Cedge
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It appears my elbow engine project is to be delayed, at least until the heat index here falls back under triple digits. I suppose this will give me time to model the modifcations out to true scale, but I'd really rather be out in the shop turning a bit of metal into chips
I lost about 8 pounds just standing in front of the lathe earlier this week. I'm looking darned svelt and trim, if a bit soggy....(grin). Hopefully I'll be back at it this week, if I can get the saline I.V. bottle installed so I can stay hydrated.
106° F (41°C) at +96% humidity will separate the men from the boys and old men from all polite company.
Steve
I lost about 8 pounds just standing in front of the lathe earlier this week. I'm looking darned svelt and trim, if a bit soggy....(grin). Hopefully I'll be back at it this week, if I can get the saline I.V. bottle installed so I can stay hydrated.
106° F (41°C) at +96% humidity will separate the men from the boys and old men from all polite company.
Steve
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Cedge said:
I know how that feels when spray arcing 1.5" plate or changing weights and jackets in a foundry.
Drink lots of water, eat a little salty chips so you have salt and take breaks in a cool place. the heat run me out of my shop for a while but thank goodness it passed.
Well its all together and turning freely. Had to use a little shimming to get the upright square, but that can be squared away after it runs. It cant be said enough, this thing has to be parallel and square. Only a few adjustments left to make and we should be off to the races. Hope the patience keeps pace with the frustration.
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B
Bogstandard
Guest
Well done Ralph, looking good.
Hopefully you will have the success grin very soon.
John
Hopefully you will have the success grin very soon.
John
Thanks for the words of encouragement John. Without seeing your build first I dont think I would have tried this one. You made it all very easy to understand. You should have been a teacher. Just goes to show, even a rookie with no experience can accomplish good things with some guidance. I'm sure the "grin of success" will be here soon enough.
Thanks
Ralph
Thanks
Ralph
