Moving my lathe

[Steamchick]

For a small to medium lathe how about using an engine hoist? Owned, borrowed or hired... This is how I move these smaller units, again always slung carefully.

Unfortunately, the whole job has to go through a man-space less than 3 ft wide - then sits half over a lower workbench on tailstock end. But your overhead traveller would solve my restricted access nicely if I move before I pop my clogs! Otherwise someone else can dismantle the whole workshop. After 5 decades of all weather motorcycling, my joints are too worn for me to want to move anything that heavy.
Thanks for the post
K2

 

[Steamchick]

How medium is medium? What is the largest one can safely use an engine hoist for? I have the largest engine hoist I could find, also a moveable overhead crane I built many years ago. The engine hoist is the most convenient but it only lifts so much at each adjustment.

Hi Richard, I "cut my teeth" (aged in single figures) on a watchmaker's lathe when my grandfather taught me graving to make 4 and 6BA brass screws he used to repair clocks. Then my after taught me to use his treadle lathe - with told and screw slides! RH threads as dated from 1920s. 3 in swing, so this is what I call a small lathe as is my Unimat. At 11 School taught me to use a 6 in swing lathe 5 ft long, so maybe this is a "small" lathe? Then an uncle taught me to use his 20 ft long 18 in swing lathe (as a teenager I was "the boy" for cleaning the workshop on Saturdays). I used to skim Hillman imp heads held on a fixture on the faceplate, and Broom Wade compressor cross-heads 10 in diameter cast iron - held in the chuck and with revolving tailstock centre. This is what I call a "large" lathe. The local Model Engineers have an 8in swing 10 ft long lathe - is this what you call "medium"?
But what about the largest lathe "where I worked" that could take a 5 ft flywheel, or machine a shaft 25 ft long? Just another "large" lathe? But I reckon "large" lathes are bigger than my garage, so maybe I am being unreal for modellers.....
Fun nattering!
K2

 

[Steamchick]

Bit silly question just check your numbers on hoist and weight of lathe or what Eva your lifting basic get the rigging right and good to go

Not a silly comment. You are quite correct: Safety FIRST! While I can - and do - calculations on lots of things, few have the knowledge or experience to do their own calcs. The largest lift "on my shift" - as a site agent at the Bomber Command museum at Hendon - was the roof frame, using a couple of 100 ton and a 200 ton mobile crane. But the certified crane engineer had responsibility for the calcs. Get in touch with your local Model Engineering club for all proper (and free) advice and help.
Remember, it is cheaper to get good advice than to buy a new lathe when you drop one and crack or bend the bed...
Nuff said,
K2

 

[Steamchick]

That is 440 pounds
My self and wife move 750 lathe last summer. A I would not do that again and thank God for pain pills my wife said we are to old and never do that again. I was 65 and she is older.

Dave

I'm guessing the weight of the boat... About 6 hundredweight on the trailer? But without the cast steel centre plate , rigging, rudder, anchor, etc. when lifting off the trailer. It was about the limit for 4 blokes, 2 slings (1 bloke each end, sling over shoulder, straight back and lift from legs). The smallest (5th bloke) withdrew the trailer when the boat was lifted. Same method to put it back on the trailer after repairs. I was 40 years younger then.
K2

 

[goldstar31]

Hi Up Ken!
RAF Hendon after WW2 was never 'Bomber Command', The last bomber that flew into Hendon was a converted Liberator owned by Hellenic Air Lines and was about 11th Dember 1949 and mistook little Hebdon for Norholt and was full of Greek kids who wanted to do Christmas shopping. Actually, I watched a Paddy corporal marshall it in! to Flying Wing HQ of 31 Squadron.
Bomber Command had a wooden hut that was Tech Wing HQ- occupied earlier by Cpl Arthur Porteous from Newcastle and me as boss of Tech Library.
So there is- and still is the geodetic supported roofing of what was R&I- Repair and Ispection and became on the RAF Museum Exhibition Main Halls and possibly what had been 'A' Flight hangar and had a stencil ;The Graham White Company' on the wall.
Perhaps you would clarify things for me

Thanks.

Norman

 

[Steamchick]

Correct - RAF Hendon wasn't Bomber Command. But the museum extension built in 1982 (opened 1983) was called the "Bomber Command" museum.. at least on our contract when we (Balfour Beatty) designed, manufactured, and erected the 3 buildings that were to house the Vulcan and Valiant and other bombers. I thinkmit is still called the "Bomber Command Museum..". These buildings are triangular space frame designs (MERO frames), the 2 pyramids and adjoining central section. I was there as Site agent for BB under Wimpey main agent. Sorry for any confusion.
K2

 

[goldstar31]

Ken

Thanks for clearing away a few 'ghosts' which inevitably arise. You see folks, I was a child of 7 when I discovered 'Hendon' in a cheap magazine. This was 1937! It described the 'Bombing of Port Hendon' with those wonderful old bipes- Hawker Hart variants. There was a staged bombing and smoke and fire and by some frightening quirk it happened. Of all the RAF units that there were- I was posted there. Not only was I posted there but 'I saw the smoke and flames' on the 21st April when a sabotaged Percival Proctor had engine trouble, tried to land again at Hendon and crashed in flames with all three crew burned alive.
50 years to the day, I went back with the families to London's Metropolitan Police College where the crash took pplace to commemorate the even and to tank two surviving - now retired Police superintendents for risking their lives that day.
When I got an offensive retort on Veterans Day, Mac, Tony, and poor Fred were the ones who died. They were the last to die there.

On a lighter note, 'The Wimpey' was the geodetic Wellington bomber designed by Barnes Wallis wjo designed the Bouncing Bomb of RAF 617 ( the Dambusters) Squadron-- and my 'line boss was Signals Officer to Guy Gibson VC who led the raid on the dams. The Tall boy bombs were also designed by BW and made at Scotswood! So we are back to these Emco lathes and V1's and V2's.

Years ago, I tried to provide Material for a book o Hendon. Somebody had 'blue pencilled' parts of the story.

I'd signed the Official Secrets Act and even after all these years, it was still 'sensitive' Recall the timbered Officers' Mess and the Airmen's Married Quarters? Let's settle for' the Dirty Dozen'

Formative years-- sorry!

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Goldstar31.
No apology needed. Just different times, different experiences.... I must check. It may be that my Grandfather's brother died there while flying - sorry, "not landing properly" - back in WW1 days... Can't remember back that far ...
Also, while I was there we had a "force majeur" incident on-site - that affected some work, because there was a tiny incident in Spring '82 that took the crews fitting-out "our" Museum V-bombers to some islands, for a "practice long-range bombing exercise"... Can't say any more - I too have signed the official secrets act. When they returned the V-bombers were finished and handed-over to the Museum.
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/about-us/our-history/Hendon-cradle-of-aviation.aspx"Further expansion took place in 1978 with the opening of the Battle of Britain Museum and again in 1983 with the opening of the Bomber Command Museum.

On 1 April 1987 RAF Hendon officially closed although personnel were still present until 1988. "

The Vulcan XL318 that flew over the ground-breaking ceremony for the official start of construction of that part of the Museum is the actual plane sitting inside the building now. It didn't go to the action in the Atlantic - it was sitting half-assembled under "our roof" until the RAF lads returned from their holiday on an island in the mid-Atlantic to finish it off... StackPath

The first B.2 delivered to 617 Squadron, The Dam Busters, based at RAF Scampton, on 1 September 1961. Performed its last flight (and last of the 617 as a Vulcan unit) on 11 December 1981, filmed for Yorkshire Television's 617-The Last Days of a Vulcan Squadron. Withdrawn and allocated to the RAF Museum on 4 January 1982, delivered by road from Scampton to Hendon in sections, being reassembled in the Bomber Command Museum (now Bomber Hall) by June 1982.[9][10]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_Avro_Vulcans

History. So much happened that we are forbidden from telling.
Back to "moving lathes" I feel!
Sorry for hijacking a part of the thread. My only excuse is "age".
K2

 

[Steamchick]

Post-script: The only "Wimpey" I worked for (as a sub-contractor) were the construction company nicknamed "We Import More People Every Year"... or something like that....
K2

 

[goldstar31]

Apologies Brian but thank you for an opportunity to steal your post.


Might I wish you success in your repair and reinstatement of your lathe.
Thanks for the Memory( Bob Hope?)

Norman

 

[stanstocker]

This is really about engine cranes and moving heavy stuff. If a moderator wants to move this to some other thread or category that's perfectly OK with me.

With an engine crane quite often the difficulties come from the legs being in the way. Using a 2 ton rated crane I've moved as large as an old 1930's era South Bend 15. We removed the overhead drive first to reduce of center load and make it less top heavy. As this was one with the cast iron open leg set and overhead motor the engine crane worked well. If it had been a more modern cabinet base style we would likely have needed to set the lathe down on some cribbing, then done the alternate end layer by layer removal of cribbing using jacks and tommy bars. I have to play that game when moving my SB 10K.

As long as the center of mass can be kept safely within the footprint of the crane, weight and lift height are the only restriction. DON'T let the load getting swinging, stop as soon as it starts and get things calmed down. Particularly with the triangular leg configuration there is very little room for error before it can tip or flip.

Use good slings or chains, even if you spend an extra $50 on two or three real lifting slings, it's less than hiring a rigger. Cast a suspicious eye over all the slings you are going to use. There is no "iffy" rating here, it's either OK, or it's trash. If using rope, figure any knot will reduce the strength of the rope rating by at least 50%. That's one that's easy to overlook. If you can't figure out how to do the job, get help or hire a rigger. As Brian mentioned, they aren't cheap. If you drop a 3000 pound engine lathe down a basement stairwell that won't be cheap either.

If you have to lift high to clear a cabinet base, get the load as low as possible as soon as possible. Lower the load onto wood packing placed over the crane legs or a tranfer dolly if you can. Better to drive a trailer or truck under or out from under a suspended load than to move the crane with a high up load. Same if using a tractor, particularly with a boom pole. A high load greatly increases the chance of tipping. Only extend the boom as far as actually needed. If you need to move some distance, consider putting the load on dollies. Lift again at the far end of the move. I've never dropped a machine or gotten hurt doing a move, but I'd rather take half an hour longer and stack the odds in my favor. Whenever doing a heavy lift, know where everyone is, be sure everyone knows the plan, and know where the load will go if it all goes wrong. Don't be there. I assure you, you won't have time to get out of the way. Lucky, hurt, or dead are the options if you stand in the wrong place.

Engine cranes have quite small wheels which easily trip even on a small pebble. Sweeping well before using one helps. Putting rings cut from PVC pipe around the wheels helps too, the rings need to be taller than the mid point of the wheel. The wheel pushes the ring from the inside, the rings help push any debris out of the line of travel. Useful with shop vacuum wheels too.

Hope everyone stays safe and healthy in these weird days!
Stan

 

[Richard Hed]

This is really about engine cranes and moving heavy stuff. If a moderator wants to move this to some other thread or category that's perfectly OK with me.

With an engine crane quite often the difficulties come from the legs being in the way. Using a 2 ton rated crane I've moved as large as an old 1930's era South Bend 15. We removed the overhead drive first to reduce of center load and make it less top heavy. As this was one with the cast iron open leg set and overhead motor the engine crane worked well. If it had been a more modern cabinet base style we would likely have needed to set the lathe down on some cribbing, then done the alternate end layer by layer removal of cribbing using jacks and tommy bars. I have to play that game when moving my SB 10K.

As long as the center of mass can be kept safely within the footprint of the crane, weight and lift height are the only restriction. DON'T let the load getting swinging, stop as soon as it starts and get things calmed down. Particularly with the triangular leg configuration there is very little room for error before it can tip or flip.

Use good slings or chains, even if you spend an extra $50 on two or three real lifting slings, it's less than hiring a rigger. Cast a suspicious eye over all the slings you are going to use. There is no "iffy" rating here, it's either OK, or it's trash. If using rope, figure any knot will reduce the strength of the rope rating by at least 50%. That's one that's easy to overlook. If you can't figure out how to do the job, get help or hire a rigger. As Brian mentioned, they aren't cheap. If you drop a 3000 pound engine lathe down a basement stairwell that won't be cheap either.

If you have to lift high to clear a cabinet base, get the load as low as possible as soon as possible. Lower the load onto wood packing placed over the crane legs or a tranfer dolly if you can. Better to drive a trailer or truck under or out from under a suspended load than to move the crane with a high up load. Same if using a tractor, particularly with a boom pole. A high load greatly increases the chance of tipping. Only extend the boom as far as actually needed. If you need to move some distance, consider putting the load on dollies. Lift again at the far end of the move. I've never dropped a machine or gotten hurt doing a move, but I'd rather take half an hour longer and stack the odds in my favor. Whenever doing a heavy lift, know where everyone is, be sure everyone knows the plan, and know where the load will go if it all goes wrong. Don't be there. I assure you, you won't have time to get out of the way. Lucky, hurt, or dead are the options if you stand in the wrong place.

Engine cranes have quite small wheels which easily trip even on a small pebble. Sweeping well before using one helps. Putting rings cut from PVC pipe around the wheels helps too, the rings need to be taller than the mid point of the wheel. The wheel pushes the ring from the inside, the rings help push any debris out of the line of travel. Useful with shop vacuum wheels too.

Hope everyone stays safe and healthy in these weird days!
Stan

This is all GREAT information. The lathe I should be moving is less than 1500 lbs. I have a 2-1/2 ton engine hoist but I'm not sure enough that the hoist will go high enough to pick this up off a pickup bed. I also have a strong ramp that I could bring this down. which is my actual preference. I trust a ramp more than a hoist but if I could use a combo of both, I will do that, as the hoist can help move it down the ramp and provide a safety net so to speaks. When the package gets low enough, I can switch to engine hoist only. What do thimk? Goo plan?

 

[goldstar31]

A Haltrac or its equivalent is only £20 or less in the Uk and despite it only being pulleys and starting cord, it will take 300kg.

 

[Richard Hed]

A Haltrac or its equivalent is only £20 or less in the Uk and despite it only being pulleys and starting cord, it will take 300kg.

What's a Haltrac? This lathe will weigh in at twice that weight.

 

[dnalot]

I rented a section of scaffolding on wheels to move a 1000 pound lathe into place. You can see the base in the background. Was able to do it by myself and it made aligning it to the base very easy. It also worked well height wise to lift the lathe out of the back of a pickup. Just remember to tie the lathe off so it doesn't start to swinging.

Mark T

 

[dnalot]

I think for moving a lathe in confined space Brian's method is perfect.

Mark T

 

[Richard Hed]

I rented a section of scaffolding on wheels to move a 1000 pound lathe into place. You can see the base in the background. Was able to do it by myself and it made aligning it to the base very easy. It also worked well height wise to lift the lathe out of the back of a pickup. Just remember to tie the lathe off so it doesn't start to swinging.

Mark T

View attachment 121032

That shop looks so familiar, as if I had been there before. And that lathe looks exactly like the one I hope to buy soon. Seriously tho', I see you have run a strap around the heavy head section sort of like a baby holding saddle. (Don't know what they are called.) Or am I just imagining that? Is it safe, I mean it won't slip? Do yo have any more fotos of this setup?

 

[Richard Hed]

Bit silly question just check your numbers on hoist and weight of lathe or what Eva your lifting basic get the rigging right and good to go

That's all true, but there are other considerations.

 

[stanstocker]

Nothing wrong with a ramp provided it can't fail. I've seen a ramp fail by twisting or a sudden load shift, something load rating alone can't protect from. Figure out how you are going to get the load moving past initial friction, then how to control it if it wants to take off on it's own. As the lathe tips onto the ramp things can get really exciting. If you are going into a narrow doorway the ramp can even get you through the door during the initial unloading. Just have someone outside with a crowbar or other lever to get the lathe well into the door, and someone inside with the engine crane. I tried this solo once and ended up with a machine halfway down the ramp, blocking the door, and me inside. In the back of my mind I could hear Baldrick saying "I have a clever plan." Finally got it sorted out but added it to the list of dumb moves to avoid.

Might see if you can rent a gantry style crane at a local place if the engine crane doesn't have the reach.

Depending on the height of the truck you may be able to use the crane. When moving a heavy object in a truck it's good to slide it up against the cab end of the bed. You choose how hard to accelerate, the moron running the red light controls how hard you brake... Slide the load back to where you can lift with the crane if possible. Usually you can find an angle for the legs to clear the wheels and give access. Play around getting it balanced, then lift a wee bit more, drive the truck out of the way, and lower it a bit. Really a matter of what you are comfortable doing and have done before. I don't like tilting loads onto or off of benches or trailers, other folks are fine with sliding all sorts of stuff on ramps.

 

[Richard Hed]

Nothing wrong with a ramp provided it can't fail. I've seen a ramp fail by twisting or a sudden load shift, something load rating alone can't protect from. Figure out how you are going to get the load moving past initial friction, then how to control it if it wants to take off on it's own. As the lathe tips onto the ramp things can get really exciting. If you are going into a narrow doorway the ramp can even get you through the door during the initial unloading. Just have someone outside with a crowbar or other lever to get the lathe well into the door, and someone inside with the engine crane. I tried this solo once and ended up with a machine halfway down the ramp, blocking the door, and me inside. In the back of my mind I could hear Baldrick saying "I have a clever plan." Finally got it sorted out but added it to the list of dumb moves to avoid.

Might see if you can rent a gantry style crane at a local place if the engine crane doesn't have the reach.

Depending on the height of the truck you may be able to use the crane. When moving a heavy object in a truck it's good to slide it up against the cab end of the bed. You choose how hard to accelerate, the moron running the red light controls how hard you brake... Slide the load back to where you can lift with the crane if possible. Usually you can find an angle for the legs to clear the wheels and give access. Play around getting it balanced, then lift a wee bit more, drive the truck out of the way, and lower it a bit. Really a matter of what you are comfortable doing and have done before. I don't like tilting loads onto or off of benches or trailers, other folks are fine with sliding all sorts of stuff on ramps.

I used this very ramp for a very heavy Cincinnati Mill a couple times, it was difficult but I managed it. The lathe will be in a wood crate and much lighter. I thimk with the engine hoist AND the ramp, I should be able to manage it, however, it is still a frightening bit of work, so I appreciate all the thots and ideas. I thimk I will try the engine hoist first, because if that works, it will be so much simpler, hower, if that fails, bring out the ramp.

You know, I always tells my son, daughter and friends that I always LISTEN to advice, take one third of it immediately, reject 1/3 immediately and thimk about the other third for a couple days. Some advice is frivolous from inexperienced persons, but how frivolous was the ten year old's advice to flatten the tires? Here's what happened, a watermelon truck got stuck going into a tunnel. The adults couldn't figure out what to do. The kid said, Let some air out of the tires.

One time a man's tire fell off while driving by Steilacoom (a town in Washington with a psychiatric asylum--commonly we of the Soviet call the asylum 'Steilacoom' and not the town). The owner of the car didn't know what to do but an inmate was at the fence. He said, take a nut off each of the other three tires and put them on the spare. I may be crazy but I'm not stupid.

So often a simple idea can be utilized that oneself never thot about, so I always hunt for ideas. Also, one should remember that not all advice by seasoned swarf warriors is good advice--usually, but not always.