Making Dies Using Taps

[Kludge]

Okay, this is a strange one which means it's typical for me. I know how to make taps when all I have is dies. That's fairly easy and I've even managed to do it once or twice without bunging it up too badly.

Now I have around 70 "new" taps from something under 1mm on up to 7/16" for which I have no dies. Some I can find through the horrid process of actually buying then. Maybe even the .0608"-110 ones, although that's an Elgin exclusive size so maybe not. For some, no way. A 1919 copy of Tool Making gave me some basics for more conventional dies but the smaller ones simply won't work this way. I may be able to get around this using Ancient Watchmaker Secrets so I'm not a whole lot of concerned about this. Ummm ... yes, I am.

So, anyway, I know you old pros can do this hanging by your heels, both hands tied behind your back and blindfolded while subjected to any of a number of seriously annoying sounds at 150 Db. Or several of them combined. I'm not quite so talented (read as: basic moron who has no business around machines, so I'm told) so any hints would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,

Kludge

 

[Maryak]

Hi Kludge,

Make up your die buttons from annealed drill rod.

Drill and tap in the centre to your size(s)

Slot drill, (2 fluted end mill), 3 holes at 120 deg so that they cut part way through you tapped hole and voila.

If you wanna get real fancy put a 30 deg champfer on one end of the thread to give a lead in.

Harden to taste. (Cherry red indoor light, then quench in water)

Hope this helps ??? ???

Best Regards
Bob

 

[Mainer]

Let me start by saying I've never done this. ;D

I recall reading, though, that one way of doing it is to drill the 3 or 4 periphery holes first and insert plugs into them -- the book probably suggested soldering, but I bet Loctite 609 would work. Drill and tap the center hole, then remove the plugs.

 

[dwentz]

For dies that small what has worked for me is a "spring screw threading die" A quick google turned this up, and what is pictured is very close to how I have made them in the past.
http://books.google.com/books?id=np...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

And a picture is with a 1000 words.

Basically turn down the end of some drill rod. You want a step inside with the larger hole not touched by your tap, and the smaller hole the correct size for the tap. After you run your tap in, you want to take a slitting saw and make your cuts only on the portion that you threaded. You can file or stone a little relieve in to get a good sharp edge. Then heat treat for hardness.

They do not take long to make, and work good on softer material like brass, and soft steal.

Hope this helps.

Dale

 

[Kludge]

Drill and tap in the centre to your size(s)

Slot drill, (2 fluted end mill), 3 holes at 120 deg so that they cut part way through you tapped hole and voila.

This will work down to some of the itty bitty ones where it becomes impractical to do this way. It's also worded a lot better than the book I have which helps considerably.

Watchmaker's die plates have three types of threading mechanisms - no slots, 1 slot and 2 slots. The slots are cuts made with a jeweler's saw through the threads like the holes you mention that go from the die part to holes on either side of the threading part of the die. The no slot ones are for rolled threads. The 2 slot ones are used pretty much like regular dies, just much smaller (down to .6mm for sure and they may also be how the ones down to .3mm are made.) Mine go up to 2mm which seems to be the upper limit for them. I have no idea what the 1 slot ones are for and don't own any to find out. Yet.

Mahalo nui loa for your description, Bob. It is greatly appreciated.

Best regards,

Kludge

 

[Kludge]

Let me start by saying I've never done this. ;D

A little thing like that's no real disadvantage. It just means you have no preconceived notions.

I recall reading, though, that one way of doing it is to drill the 3 or 4 periphery holes first and insert plugs into them -- the book probably suggested soldering, but I bet Loctite 609 would work. Drill and tap the center hole, then remove the plugs.

Interesting. The reverse of the way Bob mentioned but no less functional. Okay, when I can, it'll be time to experiment to see which works better. And we all know what happens when I experiment.

Which reminds me, folks: The honey attracted absolutely no flies. Therefore the idea of catching more flies with honey than with vinegar is false since you can't catch negative flies. One can have flies & !flies (not-flies) but not -flies.

Thank you. This gives me another approach to play with.

Best regards,

Kludge

 

[Kludge]

For dies that small what has worked for me is a "spring screw threading die"

Hmmm ... I don't think I've ever seen one like this before. It certainly makes a lot of sense and would be easy to make for a great range of my favorite sizes.

Mahalo hui loa for the idea. It actually makes sense to me, something that a few would claim is a rather major miracle. I wonder if it would be cheating fair to use just a few sizes of drill rod to make a range of dies. The idea is that just, say, 3/16" and 3/8" should be sufficient to make all the different sizes I need - pretty much anything #8 or 1/8" on down.

Also, thank you for the book reference, Dale. I downloaded it and added it to my collection. (I guess you know books from 1920 and earlier are favorites of mine, as are patent searches for the same period.) It has all sorts of Really Cool Tricks that we seem to have "outgrown" now. I've found this true in a number of other old texts which is why I value them as I do my (digital) copies of Machinery's Handbook (1915, I think) and 507 Mechanical Movements (several editions, the most recent being 1905.)

BEst regards,

Kludge

 

[dwentz]

Kludge,

I made them all the same size, I think mine are from 1/4 inch drill rod. I have made a few for small metric sizes that I needed years ago. Actually I got the idea from some larger dies that I had on hand that are called acorn dies. It was years later that I saw a picture and a reference to the small spring dies, that were made the same way I made mine, in a clock making book.

Here is another google book that has a picture of an acorn die, and its holder.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_s...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result

Yes I love the old books from the 20's also. For some reason they explain things so much better. In fact I keep math and algebra books around from the 20's also. When the kids are struggling with home work, and I can not understand what their school books are trying to explain, I go grab my old books. It is interesting that 95% of the time they understand what is in the old books also. The only problem we have had with this, is that some of the math teachers will not give them credit for a correct answer if they work the problem in a fashion other than what they explained in class, or in their "New Math" book. I have had arguments with two teachers on this very subject.

Dale

 

[Noitoen]

Hi,

About these books, can you download or read them on-line? When I click the link, all I get is the cover image and some description of the chapter's contents.


Helder

 

[applescotty]

Helder,

I assume you are not in the US? Google books won't display some books for some countries because of varying copyright lengths, etc. However, you can view it through a proxy. Try this

You can paste the link into this page:
http://www.guardster.com/subscription/proxy_free.php

Paste the link into the address field, hit the button, and I think you should be able to download the book.

Scott

 

[Noitoen]

Tanks Scott,

It works, but just to read but I can't download.

Helder

 

[Shadow]

In the Jan/Feb 2008 issue of The Home Shop Machinist there is a nine page article by Jerry Keiffer on making small taps and dies, some down to .010 x 350. He takes a .375 section of drill rod, and makes a slot across what will be the thread area. He states the slot (25% the width of the thread) will help center the drill for the tap. He also makes a 15 degree taper lead in on one side. The two slots formed leave more material than the usual three hole method so the thread will be less brittle.

 

[Kludge]

Actually I got the idea from some larger dies that I had on hand that are called acorn dies.

Okay, I've been doing a dangerous thing related to the acorn dies - thinking. (We all know what happens when I think, right? YEs? Good, because I don't want to scare away potential members.)

So anyway, what would happen if the slots and outer (taper) threads were cut first, the acorn run on so it squeezes the sections together ever so slightly then the hole drilled and tapped? From my medication & sleep deprivation-induced haze, it seems to me that an additional trick could be added to the show, that being to create threads that have a slight interference fit that you probably won't want to come apart again but should be threaded for strength. This is the same way aircraft engine cylinder heads are threaded onto the cylinders themselves, and they don't come apart with anything less than a saw or being melted down. Doing so with a saw sometimes is "exciting".

Shadow, once again, I am reminded that I need to subscribe to HSM. Actually, it would be nice to even get it in the budget as a line item. But, as we all know, Noelle comes first.

BEst regards,

Kludge

 

[Kludge]

Shadow was kind enough to send me a copy of the Jan/Feb 2008 issue of Home Shop Machinist (as well as several other Really Cool Things) for which I thank him.

In reading it, a few ideas came to me that compensate for the fact that I don't have a threading attachment on any of my lathes. At the moment, none of them are cast even in really, really soft butter but a few show potential. We shall see what we shall see.

BEst regards,

Kludge