Looking for a Mill

[rodw]

I spoke to stuart at Titan again, he said he has sold X3's in the past and explained the differences. Main ones are bigger gib screws and an enclosed column v's the X3's channel type which is the source of most complaints about stiffness.

Rod, did you have a look at the TM30v it has 80mm quill travel.

I asked Stuart about it and he says he does not bring htem in any more. He did not like the way that they were put together and the motor burned out brushes vs the 20V's brushless that eliminates this.

H& F should give you a good discount on a mill after what you have spent there/

That is a conversation I will have later today.

 

[rodw]

Well, after a lot of thought and a conversation with H&F which saved me a few dollars, I dropped in on Chris a few houses down from me as he has a SX3 set up for CNC to get an opinion on the SX3. He was pretty happy with it and told me about somebody in Perth who reinforced the column with a lump of steel but that is not an option for him because the column is full of CNC electronics. I have seen photos somewhere of this mod. He reckoned that it has plenty of power for fairly large tools (1" is no worries). He said he has a new CNC program that does very agressive roughing cuts, the SX3 handles it but it fairly screams! The finish of some of his milled parts looked pretty good. Anyway, after talking to him, I picked up my borrowed a trailer and went back to Hare and Forbes and bought one of these suckers!

H&F tried to load it on my 7'x4' trailer with the lathe but it hung over a few inches and they reckoned the stand was in the same sized crate so I have to go back to pick it up in the morning. It will be a big weekend I think! And I am not back to work until Wednesday!

I decided that having the same MT3 taper on the lathe tailstock and the mill might let me interchange chucks etc between the machines. Also, the SX3 has a longer quill travel (80mm from memory over the Titan's 50mm) which might be an advantage. Local support is also a consideration. I decided that it is unlikely that I will hit the SX3's limits with the stuff I do.

When this thread started, I had no intention of buying a mill but the original strategy I came up with seems to have paid off. My old lathe sells on eBay tomorrow night and it will cover about half of the $2250 I have paid for the mill and stand. the salesman said if I wanted any tooling to see him and he'd make sure I'd get 10% off.

 

[trumpy81]

Andy, when I get to adding DRO's I probably would go to the DRO store. However, they Might be cheaper direct, rather than eBay. http://www.thedrostore.com/

Got the TM20V price. $1690, stand $235, shipping $113, optional insurance 2% of the value of goods.

That puts the price $200 under H&F's special pricing they have going this month for a Sx3 and stand. Decisions, decisions!

Paid for my lathe yesterday, will pick it up today so will see if H&F have a bit more in them while I am spending money with them. I noticed that the Titan only has 50mm quill travel which might be a pain for me if I am ditching my drill press.

Andy, what side of Brissy are you?

Rod, I went with the Meister because the scale dimensions are slightly smaller than those offered by thedroshop and because I already know what to expect from the Meister. I checked both their websites and they didn't seem to offer much of an advantage over their eBay prices. Not enough to squibble about anyhow ... lol

That's not a bad price for the TM20V. Stuart seems to have the shipping prices sorted too. I considered his shipping to be fair at least, IE: no markup on it.

Hit H&F for everything you can get ... lol

I'm on the southside but i did live on the northside for quite a while from the early 80's to late 90's. I had to move down here for work though. At least it's better than Townsville ... lol

 

[trumpy81]

Andy, That is the mob that I bought my DRO for my lathe from, I was thinking of the same for the mill when I get it,so it will not be confusing.

Unfortunaly the TM45FG will be to big for my shed I reckon, will measure up better on weekend.

Mark that's what I was considering also with the DRO's, so I went with the Meister BOLTS3. It should arrive in a couple of weeks.

Maybe now is a good time for a shed cleanup ... lol It's amazing what you can squeeze in sometimes ... lol

I didn't think I'd have room for the engine crane I had to buy in order to shift the mill ... but I found room

I had the same problem trying to work out where I would put the mill. It's not in the ideal position but at least I have plenty of clearance around it. It did require a lot of shuffling of stuff and now my 3in1 sheet metal rolls live out in the garden shed

What I really need is a materials rack,but I have nowhere to put it. At present, I'm tripping over my long stock on the floor and it's driving me nuts. I could cut some of it into shorter lengths but knowing my luck I'd need a piece 50mm longer ... lol

 

[trumpy81]

Andy

when buying from Titan ensure that you are completely satisfied with the guarantee to the extent that I would insist on a 24 month guarantee period. Ask me why I know.

If you are buying a SIEG machine, the mob in Adelaide are by far the best price for the machine & shipping. $ 850 for the SX2 plus $80 delivery beats the Titan price for the same machine by around $ 300.

Bernard

Bernard, when buying Chinese made machinery one should not expect good warranty on it. Stuart simply imports them from China and although he is obligated to provide warranty, he certainly has no control over quality.

There have been many horror stories related to Chinese machinery but in this day and age if you want quality you have to pay for it and unfortunately most of the good stuff is well overpriced.

I'd love to have a couple of Okuma CNC machines sitting here, but I guess I'll have to make do with my Sherline CNC machines ... lol

 

[rodw]

I'm on the southside. I had to move down here for work though. At least it's better than Townsville ... lol

I'm also southside at Algester, might run into you one day then.

What I really need is a materials rack,but I have nowhere to put it. At present, I'm tripping over my long stock on the floor and it's driving me nuts. I could cut some of it into shorter lengths but knowing my luck I'd need a piece 50mm longer ... lol

I got some 50x50 galvanised SHS and welded one up along the side of the shed. Been there for about 18 months and STILL have not put roof on it that was part of the plan.

 

[Cogsy]

If you are buying a SIEG machine, the mob in Adelaide are by far the best price for the machine & shipping. $ 850 for the SX2 plus $80 delivery beats the Titan price for the same machine by around $ 300.

But be careful of them. "the mob in Adelaide" I bought my machine off only offer a 30 day warranty...

 

[rodw]

But be careful of them. "the mob in Adelaide" I bought my machine off only offer a 30 day warranty...

I think this is relevant when dealing with Titan too. While they may offer a longer warranty, you are dealing with a one man band without a retail outlet who is setting his prices to get under the others.

So come on guys, stop stuffing around and pick one!

I have to say I am very impressed with the Seig after cleaning it up after lunch today except that they use far to much grease! I did print out the UK instructions on how to prepare one but decided not to go the extremes they do but did pull the back off it so I could clean up the column.

What a day! it took 12 hours to clean up two machines (but I did go to H&F to pick up the mill and its stand). I have not used it yet, still to get it in the shed but at minimum speed, you can't hear it running!

I found out that you don't need to take the covers off the back like I did because you can undo 4 screws and pull the back of the column off with all the electronics in it and just leave the cables connected and put it beside the mill.

Look how much kerosene I have used today!

 

[trumpy81]

I have to say I am very impressed with the Seig after cleaning it up after lunch today except that they use far to much grease! I did print out the UK instructions on how to prepare one but decided not to go the extremes they do but did pull the back off it so I could clean up the column.

Rod, that is a nice looking mill and lathe you have there. How on earth are you going to squeeze them into that tiny 'shed'?

I'm in Kingston BTW. A stone's throw away ... lol

Your 'shed' is my garden shed ... sheesh ... lol

 

[rodw]

Rod, that is a nice looking mill and lathe you have there. How on earth are you going to squeeze them into that tiny 'shed'?

I'm in Kingston BTW. A stone's throw away ... lol

Your 'shed' is my garden shed ... sheesh ... lol

They are both in! And I have used my lathe, bandsaw, welder and mill since squeezing the new gear in and it is all good.
Only problem is the lathe is a bit too far away from the bench now

As you can guess, the choice of mills was very easy for me, The Seig was the only one I could squeeze in! The 6" wider table on the Titan TM20V might have been a deal breaker so in the end, I was not game to risk getting one shipped up to find that out!

 

[trumpy81]

th_wwp

Rod, the Sieg looks to be a capable mill, you shouldn't have any problems building engines with it. It may require a little more planning though.

Have you thought about CNC'ing the Sieg?

 

[rodw]

th_wwp

Rod, the Sieg looks to be a capable mill, you shouldn't have any problems building engines with it. It may require a little more planning though.

Have you thought about CNC'ing the Sieg?

Andy, thanks, I have a neighbour who has gone down this route with the same mill and he has spent $10k on Solidworks software. I have seen the CNC Conversion kits to do it and they come in at $4k

For the last two nights I have played with Alibre Design to design a carriage lock for the lathe and torn my hair out with it. I probably could have made the part by now! I think I will look at Solidworks as well.

So in answer to your question, maybe, but it will be a long time before the coffers refill and I am up to speed with the software side of things.

 

[RManley]

Im pretty pleased with my SX3 but be prepared for bent z axis gibs with miss-matched tapers. And have plenty of shims ready to get the coloulm vetical to the table. I had to shim it 8 thou on one side!

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=y7c6A6gEBmo

If he can do this on a X2, then anything is possible on the SX3 (Im going to have a go but at a much later date)

Rob.

 

[wm460]

Congratulations on you new lathe and mill Rod.

 

[rodw]

th_wwp

Trumpy, sorry, I missed this, here you go

 

[trumpy81]

Andy, thanks, I have a neighbour who has gone down this route with the same mill and he has spent $10k on Solidworks software. I have seen the CNC Conversion kits to do it and they come in at $4k

For the last two nights I have played with Alibre Design to design a carriage lock for the lathe and torn my hair out with it. I probably could have made the part by now! I think I will look at Solidworks as well.

So in answer to your question, maybe, but it will be a long time before the coffers refill and I am up to speed with the software side of things.

Rod, forget SolidWorks. It's a good program and I have used it a few times but it's not worth the money for hobby use. If you were in a business, maybe ...

Stay with Alibre or grab a student copy of Autodesk Inventor (I use Inventor, freeby! PM me for details). Alibre have hobbyist pricing at least. For CAM, take a look at CamBam, it's very capable and relatively cheap too or write your own g-code, it's not that hard, just labourious ... lol

$4K is that for servo's?

You could do it a lot cheaper than that. Skip the ballscrews and nuts, they would be nice but not absolutely necessary. Any backlash can be compensated for with a little extra g-code and Mach3 (or 4 if it ever arrives ... lol)

If you go this route I would recommend you strip the X,Y&Z axis and make sure the gibs and nuts etc. are all in proper order. And because you also have a lathe, there's no reason why you couldn't make your own anti-backlash nuts from Acetal or similar.

Use a Gecko 540 and suitable steppers. It wont be a speed machine, but then it wont wear out as fast either ... lol

 

[trumpy81]

Trumpy, sorry, I missed this, here you go

Wow! ... now the Sieg looks positively tiny ... lol Still a nice looking machine though. I like the lathe too, has it got a powered cross slide?

I like the Sieg's Z-axis handle position, much better place for it than on my TM45FG. I've got a garage door opener that should take care of that problem though ... lol

 

[rodw]

Wow! ... now the Sieg looks positively tiny ... lol Still a nice looking machine though. I like the lathe too, has it got a powered cross slide?

Trumpy yes, you can see that it was an easy decision for me which (tiny) mill I purchased. Totally dictated by the room (or lack) of available! It took me weeks trying to work out wher to put things if I upgraded my lathe/mill to separate machines and eventually I stuck my drill press where the Seig is and it fitted!

Yes the AL320G has a power cross slide but still has change gears for threading and one belt to select high and low ranges (each of which have 6 speeds). One thing I have seen is that the longitudinal feed dial is in increments of 0.5mm not the 0.05mm I had on my last machine. Took a while to work this out. When I actually checked it out, each division is actually 1.0mm so I was out by a factor of 20 for a while!

So do people use the compound if they want fine control? Its dial is in 0.02mm increments.

That is the driver for my carriage stop project and I decided to play with Alibre while I was waiting for some more tooling to arrive.

I spent another few hours tearing my hair out with Alibre last night building a simple rectangular piece 24mm x 30mm x 5mm with one hole in it and trying to place it in an assembly and finally worked out how to flip, rotate and mate to another part. The printing features seem to be very poor and the carefully placed dimensions I placed on the original 2D sketch have gone. Without CNC, this will be important for me I think. 20 odd years ago, I designed a house floorplan using 2D CAD which was probably DOS based back then and it was so much easier than this. Hopefully, it will eventually fall into place for me.

I should be able to get an educational license of Solidworks which is about $150 a year but of course there are no guarantees it will make my life easier and you can't get a trial of it.

Thanks for all the info on CNC, It opened a few doors for me but it is well into the future. The $4k kit is a complete bolt on conversion with ball screws so I guess convenience has a price! I think I need to get to understand how to do stuff manually before diving into CNC even though I have done heaps of programming and low level interfacing of computers. I will know where to go when I am ready if I don't just stop at DRO's which is my current plan.

 

[rodw]

I should be able to get an educational license of Solidworks

.... or a free educational copy of Inventor, thanks for the heads up Trumpy, downloading now...

I wonder how I will go with it tonight.

 

[trumpy81]

Trumpy yes, you can see that it was an easy decision for me which (tiny) mill I purchased. Totally dictated by the room (or lack) of available! It took me weeks trying to work out wher to put things if I upgraded my lathe/mill to separate machines and eventually I stuck my drill press where the Seig is and it fitted!

Knowing your shed space, I can fully understand your decision to go with the Sieg. It fits in nicely, actually!

Yes the AL320G has a power cross slide but still has change gears for threading and one belt to select high and low ranges (each of which have 6 speeds). One thing I have seen is that the longitudinal feed dial is in increments of 0.5mm not the 0.05mm I had on my last machine. Took a while to work this out. When I actually checked it out, each division is actually 1.0mm so I was out by a factor of 20 for a while!

So do people use the compound if they want fine control? Its dial is in 0.02mm increments.

My lathe is the same Rod, 0.5mm per increment. I have enough space between increments to add 0.1mm lines. I don't know how effective it would be though?

With the DRO it doesn't really matter though

Using the compound, It depends on what you are machining, but for fine work and small tolerances then yes, use the compound, set at either 90 or 45 degrees. At 45 degrees you will actually halve the input. That can save a few oh-oh moments I tell ya ... lol

That is the driver for my carriage stop project and I decided to play with Alibre while I was waiting for some more tooling to arrive.

I spent another few hours tearing my hair out with Alibre last night building a simple rectangular piece 24mm x 30mm x 5mm with one hole in it and trying to place it in an assembly and finally worked out how to flip, rotate and mate to another part. The printing features seem to be very poor and the carefully placed dimensions I placed on the original 2D sketch have gone. Without CNC, this will be important for me I think. 20 odd years ago, I designed a house floorplan using 2D CAD which was probably DOS based back then and it was so much easier than this. Hopefully, it will eventually fall into place for me.

With Alibre, you need to stop thinking in terms of CAD drawing and start thinking in terms of shapes. Almost all parts can be broken down into a series of shapes. Alternatively, think of it as a block that you will carve out your part from.

You will find Inventor is similar to Alibre, but much more powerful!

I should be able to get an educational license of Solidworks which is about $150 a year but of course there are no guarantees it will make my life easier and you can't get a trial of it.

Autodesk had a similar deal for Inventor and when I was at TAFE I was told it would cost the same, $150 per year, but after being given all the relevant data I found I was able to download any Autodesk software for nicks

Onya Autodesk!

Thanks for all the info on CNC, It opened a few doors for me but it is well into the future. The $4k kit is a complete bolt on conversion with ball screws so I guess convenience has a price! I think I need to get to understand how to do stuff manually before diving into CNC even though I have done heaps of programming and low level interfacing of computers. I will know where to go when I am ready if I don't just stop at DRO's which is my current plan.

Yeah I'm going the DRO route with the larger machines myself. I have CNC on both Sherlines and I like it, but by the time I get done with the code, most of the time, I could have cut the darn parts by hand!

It comes in handy when you have parts that are difficult to impossible to cut manually though, which is often the case with some of my designs