Let's talk milling machines

[willray]

. I certainly would not want the type of herky machines you are talking about in my small shop

I'm pretty sure the Deckel FP1 and FP2 make the typical bridgeport look positively huge, while easily eating the bridgeport's lunch on rigidity and ultimate flexibility. I would love to have an FP2 in the shop.

 

[roncohudd]

I'm pretty sure the Deckel FP1 and FP2 make the typical bridgeport look positively huge, while easily eating the bridgeport's lunch on rigidity and ultimate flexibility. I would love to have an FP2 in the shop.

I have a Grizzly 13 x 42 lathe and it's been very good
I ran production on it for 10 years. Now it's for my play time.

 

[Henry K]

One thing I would like to suggest is to NOT get one with an electronic speed control. If the control goes out after about 5 years, maybe less, you could have a big problem - no repair parts. Milling machine purchases for hobbyists should last a long time. I have mine, a Rong Fu 25, for about 30 years now and it still works great with belt changes for speed control. My nearly 80 year old Logan lathe has the same story. I want to pass these machines down to my grandchildren and that should be no problem. What electronic devices last that long?

 

[roncohudd]

One thing I would like to suggest is to NOT get one with an electronic speed control. If the control goes out after about 5 years, maybe less, you could have a big problem - no repair parts. Milling machine purchases for hobbyists should last a long time. I have mine, a Rong Fu 25, for about 30 years now and it still works great with belt changes for speed control. My nearly 80 year old Logan lathe has the same story. I want to pass these machines down to my grandchildren and that should be no problem. What electronic devices last that long?

I fully agree with you Henry. My Bridgeport and the Japanese built Honeoye (which was much better than the Bridgeport) are both open belt driven. I worked in a shop with the variable speeds and it cost a small fortune to repair those.

 

[Vietti]

I find my Bridgeport very adequate for model engineering and don't find it "whippy or whimpy", but maybe only because I've not experienced anything better.

I see two or three advantages to the Bridgeport. Lots of accessories are available, they are common and easily found on the used market. One big advantage over the smaller machines is the distance between the quill and the table. When I use the mill to bore a tall cylinder casting bolted to a large angle plate the boring bar is only a few inches above the lowest table position.

I added an aftermarket power unit to my Z axis table and wouldn't be without it. I put the third axis of the DRO on the Z axis table and a small, inexpensive DRO unit on the quill, together they make life much easier. Considered an impact tool changer but decided it wasn't high enough on my priority list even though they can be had very reasonably.

 

[roncohudd]

I find my Bridgeport very adequate for model engineering and don't find it "whippy or whimpy", but maybe only because I've not experienced anything better.

I see two or three advantages to the Bridgeport. Lots of accessories are available, they are common and easily found on the used market. One big advantage over the smaller machines is the distance between the quill and the table. When I use the mill to bore a tall cylinder casting bolted to a large angle plate the boring bar is only a few inches above the lowest table position.

I added an aftermarket power unit to my Z axis table and wouldn't be without it. I put the third axis of the DRO on the Z axis table and a small, inexpensive DRO unit on the quill, together they make life much easier. Considered an impact tool changer but decided it wasn't high enough on my priority list even though they can be had very reasonably.

I've been machining with Bridgeports and lookalikes for about 40 years. Seldom ever used a DRO. Always used the numbers. Not saying anything against DRO, but seldom had it available.

 

[mikelkie]

Hi Hennie, in RSA there are many Bridgeport mills to be had at very reasonable prices.
I recently sold one with 2 axis feed and Newall dro. I like heavy machines for myself for sturdiness and could not work on a flimsy machine from the east, except Japanese. I advise everyone to save a little more an buy a good used British, US or European machine

 

[willray]

I find my Bridgeport very adequate for model engineering and don't find it "whippy or whimpy", but maybe only because I've not experienced anything better.

"Better" is in the eye of the beholder. My Proto & Wright maintenance tool set is almost infinitely "better" than my Leatherman if one just compares features, but which one is in my pocket when the car-park gate won't open at 2:00AM, and security isn't answering the phone?

Bridgeports/clones are multitools, and they're "better" on that axis than most other designs (Arguably, a Deckel FP2 puts more multitool capability in a smaller envelope than a bridgeport, as it doesn't waste the base casting as nothing more than a container for air), but I wouldn't say that other mill designs are ultimately "better" - different, definitely, but "better" needs to be thought about feature by feature and use by use.

That being said, yes, the reason you don't find the Bridgeport whippy or whimpy, is because you haven't used something more rigid with more power. I didn't think my Ex-Cell-O was whippy or whimpy before I ran the Van Norman either (and my Van Norman is a baby compared to bigger mills). There really is no meaningful comparison. It's a lot like if all you've ever used is a good adjustable ("crescent") wrench, and have never met a 6-point box-end. With the Ex-Cell-O, I have never felt "underpowered", or "flexible", but like with a crescent wrench there's always a "if I overdo this, something's going to give" feeling of needing to be sensitive to the machine's limitations. To be sure, the Van Norman has limitations, but they're so far removed from the Ex-Cell-O's that it feels invincible - like with the box end, if I overdo it, there's no question - I'm going to rip the head off the nut, or break the work, and the tool isn't even going to notice.

 

[SmithDoor]

How is hunt going finding the right mill for your line of work

Dave

Hi Everyone,

Following up on the most informative discussion "Let's talk drilling", I would really appreciate your comments and input regarding milling machines.

I've been using a little Optimum BF20 mill/drill for the past few years, and have become more and more frustrated with it's lack of capabilities, especially in machining tool steels and such - case in point I recently tried to mill a 12mm slot in a piece of annealed cobalt high-speed steel (HSS-Co), and I could not make cuts deeper than 0.25mm with a four flute end-mill, or with a 12mm ball-nose end-mill, using HSS-Co6 cutters from a reputable supplier. Because the lack of cutting capacity, I ended up with this tool steel work-hardening on me, and I blunted two end mills... So, long story short, I am seriously looking to buy a new milling machine - and that's where I would appreciate some advice from members with more engineering experience than me.

OK, so after a lot of research and price shopping, I must make some serious decisions, amongst others:

• what would be the most versatile, smallish footprint machine with a professional size chuck, enough power to do some actual milling, and still small enough to fit into my single garage sized workshop that already has a 1m lathe and a large work table.
• In my opinion a dual vertical and horizontal type machine would be much more versatile than just a vertical type mill - do you concur?
• I would like to have a machine with an ISO-40 size head - would this be the most versatile, or what would you recommend (nothing larger...)
• And the most difficult/controversial question, would a machine with a Bridgeport type vertical head with an additional horizontal receptacle be "better" than a universal type head that can take both horizontal and vertical cutters in the one head?

I am looking for something like the following (both Chinese made, but sourced through a well known and reputable supplier)

The Bridgeport type with horizontal receptical...
View attachment 126132

Or the Universal Head type...
View attachment 126133

Both machines would have power feeds in the "X", "Y" and "Z" axes. The Bridgeport type has the advantage of a quill type head that can be used for drilling as well, whilst the universal head type machine does not have a quill, and can only be fed vertically through it's knee, but is more sturdy. Does anyone have first-hand experience with the latter type of machines, and can you please explain how one would accurately adjust the milling depth on it?

Thanks in advance for your comments, advice, and constructive criticism (also on any other type of mill that you might consider to be more appropriate) - and of course realizing that here in South Africa my choice of brands and types are limited to either "made in China" or "made in India"...

Hennie

 

[timo_gross]

One thing I would like to suggest is to NOT get one with an electronic speed control. If the control goes out after about 5 years, maybe less, you could have a big problem - no repair parts. Milling machine purchases for hobbyists should last a long time. I have mine, a Rong Fu 25, for about 30 years now and it still works great with belt changes for speed control. My nearly 80 year old Logan lathe has the same story. I want to pass these machines down to my grandchildren and that should be no problem. What electronic devices last that long?

I agree and disagree, I think electronic can be very helpful I have it on "all" milling machines. Documentation of the system is what makes it vulnerable. If you know how to fix the system, without fixing the damaged electronic it will be fine.

But..... I damaged one BLDC driver a while ago, (my own fault) the motor is bricked. Because the machine maker does not exist anymore and I could not find any replacement drive to power that particular motor, the search became frustrating and a huge time waste. Mainly because there was no proper information on the motor. (I gave up)
It is not generally electronic speed control that is evil, evil are customized and undocumented parts that cannot be replaced.
I replaced the complete motor with a 3-phase motor and mitsubishi inverter (both 2nd hand). The milling machine has no change gears and relies on electronic control for different speeds.
If an ordinary 3-phase inverter quits service you can usually just replace it with lots of other brands. I like the 2nd hand mitsubishi, because it has a proper instruction and it can be replaced. Something wrong - get another 2nd hand, quick fix.
If you go for exotic electronic, be prepared to throw it away if some problem is there, just replace it. I think essential is documentation.

Do I break less drills, if I run them with good speeds, because it is easy to adjust? I do not know, but it is possible. It requires to save 120 USD damaged tools, before I can buy another 2nd hand inverter.

Greetings Timo

 

[SmithDoor]

I agree and disagree, I think electronic can be very helpful I have it on "all" milling machines. Documentation of the system is what makes it vulnerable. If you know how to fix the system, without fixing the damaged electronic it will be fine.

But..... I damaged one BLDC driver a while ago, (my own fault) the motor is bricked. Because the machine maker does not exist anymore and I could not find any replacement drive to power that particular motor, the search became frustrating and a huge time waste. Mainly because there was no proper information on the motor. (I gave up)
It is not generally electronic speed control that is evil, evil are customized and undocumented parts that cannot be replaced.
I replaced the complete motor with a 3-phase motor and mitsubishi inverter (both 2nd hand). The milling machine has no change gears and relies on electronic control for different speeds.
If an ordinary 3-phase inverter quits service you can usually just replace it with lots of other brands. I like the 2nd hand mitsubishi, because it has a proper instruction and it can be replaced. Something wrong - get another 2nd hand, quick fix.
If you go for exotic electronic, be prepared to throw it away if some problem is there, just replace it. I think essential is documentation.

Do I break less drills, if I run them with good speeds, because it is easy to adjust? I do not know, but it is possible. It requires to save 120 USD damaged tools, before I can buy another 2nd hand inverter.

Greetings Timo

Electronics is great till stops work.

Dave

 

[Baltic]

Hello Hennie, First time post on this is forum, I have recently purchased a similar mill to your OP, The Australian version, used it a bit now, and I am happy with my purchase, Var speed drive 2.2kw motor, 20-2000rpm, X,Y,Z increments, are .01mm and the Quill I think is .02mm? One thing that annoys me a bit is the VFD, it is noisey, quite a high pitch.

 

[goldstar31]

I would agree that the BT30, same taper as ISO30 or NT30 is more rigid than R8.
BT40 is quite a bit larger.............................................


Greetings Timo

So back to the King of Tools, I'm curious to learn what lathe is possessed to you inevitably have get around the inevtiable boring and turning and screwcutting.
Returning to milling, I have 2 conventioal vertical slides which interchange on my 2 lathes and a sprcialist one with an integral divising and graduating facility and like BaronJ have a rise and fall motor/grinding spindle on one of my grinders


Thanks

Norman

 

[timo_gross]

Off Topic,

Hi Norman,

In am not sure if I was asked a question personally. If so I would feel rude to ignore it. If I answer a question no one really asked, just ignore it

So back to the King of Tools, I'm curious to learn what lathe is possessed to you inevitably have get around the inevtiable boring and turning and screwcutting.
Returning to milling, I have 2 conventioal vertical slides which interchange on my 2 lathes and a sprcialist one with an integral divising and graduating facility and like BaronJ have a rise and fall motor/grinding spindle on one of my grinders


Thanks

Norman

The lathe I am possessing is actually not mine , but it lives in the workshop and I am allowed to use it. It was built 1989, and still works reasonable.

It was bougth 2nd hand, to find a smaller one is difficult here. Good thing is; the same make and model is still in production, so accessories and spares are easy to get.

If someone cares for the details it is this one CH - 400 Machine tools, Lathe, conventional lathe, CNC lathe, slant bed CNC lathe, flat bed CNC lathe, lathe manufacturer
This is the first lathe I ever operated, and I am a total hobby beginner, no idea how it compares to other types.

Back to milling:

If you use a vertical attachment for milling, do you just clamp the endmill into the 3 jaw juck? Or would that be "forbidden".

Greetings Timo

 

[jack620]

One thing that annoys me a bit is the VFD, it is noisey, quite a high pitch.

Hello Baltic and welcome to the forum. The VFD I fitted to my pedestal drill has an adjustable PWM frequency so you can select a frequency that doesn't annoy you. Perhaps yours allows this too?

 

[Baltic]

Hello Baltic and welcome to the forum. The VFD I fitted to my pedestal drill has an adjustable PWM frequency so you can select a frequency that doesn't annoy you. Perhaps yours allows this too?

Thanks Jack, A heap of reading material came with the mill, I will drag it out and have a read, I am thinking of putting a VFD on my old Chinese drill, I have the standard Baker, around 25 years old now, been a good drill, The drill on the mill is like 10 steps up !
Gary.

 

[jack620]

I am thinking of putting a VFD on my old Chinese drill

I recommend these guys: conon motor
A bit more expensive than eBay, but they offer good support and the manual that comes with the VFD is reasonably easy to understand.

My PD is mid-80s Taiwanese. I was able to dispense with the intermediate pulley. I replaced it with a belt tensioner.

Sorry for the thread drift!

 

[goldstar31]

Off Topic,

Hi Norman



Back to milling:

If you use a vertical attachment for milling, do you just clamp the endmill into the 3 jaw juck? Or would that be "forbidden".

Greetings Timo

Thank you for curung my curiousity
I would concentrate on getting the lathe working before any other 'distractions'
Then get it to make the accessories - which are usually missing. Then I would add a vwetical slide and vise and fit them into the tee slots if your lathe has then or if if hasn't-- why not drill and tap the saddle/boring table. as for holding milling cutters in a 3 or 4 jaw? The jury is divided but there is no reason whatsoever not to put one or two cutting tools into a bar of steel and sweep face it using either the faceplate or the 4 jaw independent chuck.
As for collets, only the ones to take the diameters of the 'hadfull?' of cutters are useful.
Rambling on-as old men in the 90;s do, I would serioysly look into these ER Collets
As Old men tend to ramble on, I stanfardised my lathes, mills, grinders and accessories to utilse ONE taper i.e Morse. Arguably. there are better tapers but standardisation is the least expensive system

So thank you for your information and I look forward to youur future accounts of your progree

Norman

 

[Richard Hed]

If you use a vertical attachment for milling, do you just clamp the endmill into the 3 jaw juck? Or would that be "forbidden".

That's exactly correct. Just take care, as usual.

 

[goldstar31]

That's exactly correct. Just take care, as usual.

No this is a common concept and is fraught not onlt with problem but also danger.
Tge concept comes from those who are unwilling (or unable) to aquire the proper btool holding- though not neccesarily collets. Sadly, most do not have the training to know what might be wromg when a milling citter is litersally [[ulled out of the 3 jsw chuck.
I'm not an engineer or a scientist. I'm a classisist and a awfully long retired accountant but- I'll try.

If one picks up a three jaw cuck, the area of the gripping is ( at best) a frightening tiny srea. A milling cutter normally is ground from a round piece of steel whereas the jaws are- when they are in go condition FLAT.

On the other side of the argument, a collet might sucessfully grip a threaded milling cutter or have almot 360 degrees of lips which provided amodt 360m degrees of grip on the citter. So, even a drill chuck which is essentially for drills( after all they are ver simlar to milling cutters- have a relatvely huge are n the jaws.
THey may not be as accurate but the AREA of holding is there.
i

So the one, two three or whatever snstches and spral forces 'sntch and bring a screw--- screw out.

Don't blame me- blame A rchmedes