KNIFE BLADES....Hand-Filing of Bevels

[BronxFigs]

Want to make a large, knife-blade, and will attempt to hand file the bevels. I've viewed some videos showing "draw-filing" techniques. The process doesn't look too easy. I see, maybe some blood, a lot of sweat, and a few tears, in my future.

The blade will be a representation of the WW-l l "SMATCHET". There will be four bevels to file by hand (double-sided knife blade), and they all have to be perfect, flat, and meet at common points. Both sides of the blade must look the same, or, the blade will go into the garbage. Filing lousy-looking bevels is not an option. You knife collectors know what I'm talking about.

I wonder if there are fixtures, or jigs, that one can use to control, and locate the bevel angles, etc. when using hand-files. I haven't seen any. After heat-treating, and annealing the blade to 56-58 Rockwell-C, bevels will be sharpened with a small belt sander. The whole project is just a whim....but, I want to try it. The final knife will be a "wall-hanger".

Blade steel: 1084 (spring-steel). Why this steel?...That's what I was given. "Free", is always the best price.

Questions:
What kind of hand-files should I use? Mill-bastard? rasps?... Nicholson? or, cheap, but new, junk-files?

Any videos, web-sites, suggestions?

Thanks for the help.


Frank

 

[Tin Falcon]

Want to make a large, knife-blade, and will attempt to hand file the bevels.

Ok certainly can be done.

I see, maybe some blood, a lot of sweat, and a few tears, in my future.

Blood !! please no work safe wear kvlar gloves but not near machinery.
sweat to be expected.
Tears ? plan it out take your time.

The blade will be a representation of the WW-l l "SMATCHET"

The first thing you need to do get a good set of pictures from the web then draw on paper full size what you want. If you can not draw it with a pencil and make it it look right forget trying to form it in steel with a file you need to be able to see the symmetry.

I wonder if there are fixtures, or jigs, that one can use to control, and locate the bevel angles, etc.

I expect the tool for choice here would be a knife makers vise.

After heat-treating, and annealing the blade to 56-58 Rockwell-C, bevels will be sharpened

Ok this is a confusing statement. First anneal the metal so you can shape it with a file . get the shape close then harden.Polish to see color. then temper to desired Rockwell then finish with various grits of sanding. then sharpen the edge.

Blade steel: 1084 (spring-steel). Why this steel?...That's what I was given. "Free", is always the best price.

Should work as long as it is the right size to work from.

Questions:
What kind of hand-files should I use? Mill-bastard? rasps?... Nicholson? or, cheap, but new, junk-files?

Always use the best quality best condition sharp tools you can afford.
read here this may help.

http://www.evenfallstudios.com/woodworks_library/nicholson_guide_to_filing_2006.pdf

That said a double cut bastard half round and a single smooth cut half round should do it. I say half round to shape the blade near the hilt area. Get a file card to keep them clean.

first rough cut the blank to desired shape
then file to shape profile
file one bevel at a time do not cross the center line of the blade looking at the flat and calculate thickness of the edge for each step. layout lins and a sharpie will help you see where you are.
Tin

 

[cidrontmg]

You might be interesting to see https://www.brisa.fi/portal/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
Most everything you could imagine to want/need for making knifes. I've done quite a many
Of course there's really many more knife makers, American, English, German are also good.

 

[tornitore45]

Blood is a possibility if you plan to draw file.
Draw filing will require motions parallel to the developping edge placing you just one slip away from a nesty cut.

I have never seen the advantage of draw filing other than on thin edges to prevent chatter.

Suggest you make 2 sheet metal templates one for the first surface angle and the second for the opposite bevel after the first is cut.

 

[BronxFigs]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

I now realize that some of the information that was originally posted by me, was a bit confusing. Sorry, it was clear in my head, but when posting, words have to convey everything that I'm envisioning to the readers. I failed.

Blade profile is already drawn out on graph paper, to full-scale. Symmetry was assured by folding graph paper down centerline of knife-blade, then drawing half the blade profile, and then, book-matching using carbon paper. Both sides of the drawing, along the center line, will be then same. Voila....a symmetrical representation of the blade.

Sorry, I should have also mentioned that the 1084 spring-steel is in the fully annealed, softened, stage. The blade profile will be cut to approx. shape on a milling machine...a friend offered to cut away all the extra metal around the blade blank. In the past, I used to drill holes around the perifery of the blade shape after scribing it on the steel, and play "connect-the-dots" with a hacksaw. Then file my brains out until the blade blank was shaped. I was in my 'salad days' back then. Now, too much work, and too damn slow! I'd rather give a electric motor a workout. Modern technology is a wonderful thing. I became very good at throwing on-off switches.

I did a little searching around various web-sites and 'You-Tube' has a few videos that show some good methods and techniques for cutting/filing bevels that I will try out. I've seen a couple of file-holding jigs that will help me keep the bevels at the correct angles.

Also, thanks for the suggestions about the file selection, and the style of file cuts. I will use the good, high quality files, instead of the cheapo-grade files found at the Big-Box, stores. I have some old Kevlar gloves that I used, when I decided that I would become a wood-carver. I'll dig them out of hibernation, and re-purpose them for some knife-making. I hate cut fingers, and I carved exactly one, oak leaf. The chisels are laying next to the Kevlar gloves.

Handle material:
Micarta/Phenolic, paper-composite called "Richlite". This stuff is used for kitchen counter-tops, and comes in different colors. Makes great knife handles, and I got some big slabs/offcuts....free. Then again, I might just use some stabilized wood. Knife fittings, probably Nickel-Silver.

I don't plan on making more than one, or possibly two, knife blades, so buying the correct belt-sanders, and other tooling ain't going to happen. I will send the almost-finished blade out for a professional heat-treat, and then do the final sharpening either on a small belt sander, or, just use sandpaper strips. I will hand-rub the blade to a satin finish. If so inclined, I might even do a little file-work along the back of the knife spine for some added schmaltz, some, bling-value. It all depends on how lazy I feel.

Thanks, everyone, for the helpful comments.


Frank

 

[BronxFigs]

So....my plans to make some hand-made knives was put aside while I re-educated myself regarding the whole process. Watched plenty of You-Tube videos, and instead of investing in a lot of expensive equipment, I decided -for the few knives that I will make by hand- that I will hand-file the bevels, using a jig set up to control the filing angles.

Many new opportunities have come my way that I could not have foreseen when I started this thread. I now will have access to a metal shop that complete with lathes, milling machine welding and heating equipment, CNC capabilities, and plasma cutters to profile my blade-blanks,, and, a free source for plenty of old leaf springs, probably 5160?....for blade material. A forge and power hammer may be available too.

So, the knife patterns are drawn, and are just about ready to be scribed onto some high-carbon steel, flat stock. For my first knife, I think I will try making a camp/survival blade, along the lines of the Becker BK2...but, with some minor modifications, and tweaking, e.g. convex ground blade, and a better blade/handle angle.

I will let you know how my adventures into knife-making turns out. If the blades turn out well, I'll probably use a professional heat-treatment service to harden and temper the blades. Then again, I may try hardening the blades myself.

Frank

 

[goldstar31]

As a sort of aside, the French Channel 2 TV did run a article on knife making. It was one of those country craft things but the bloke was using broken leaf springs as raw material. Again, the French Opinel firm is an old and excellent market leader in everyday knives. Every Frenchman that has his piece of baguette and a bit of Camembert cuts his sausage with an Opinel! Bien sur, mon brave!

My father always made his knife blades out of broken machine hacksaw blades. He tempered them wby charing a stick. I should have watched more carefully but I moved to more rewarding things!
The Atkinson boys( dead now) were pretty good at such things but the older history was actual swordmaking in a tiny village called Shotley Bridge- and was the forerunner of Consett Iron Company.
They were actually German emigres and one family was Fuchs( a fox was their trade mark)
The swords were of such quality that they could be coiled in a gentlemans top hat.

There's a write up- if you are interested.

Norman


As a sort of post script, there is a book published on this Shotley Bridge thing.

My contacts are probably still in the Consett area. I get invitations but domestic needs take precedence

 

[BronxFigs]

Thanks for the interesting comments, and the short history regarding some knife makers.

The whole idea of making a few knives has me intrigued...but only to a point. It's a lot of work, but a good change of pace from my usual shop antics. Besides, using old leaf-springs and hand files is the cheapo way to go, and if the whole process gets old fast, I'll just toss the whole thing, and move on. But, I will give it a try just to see how it all goes.

In the end, if the process all goes as planned, at least I will have made an object of utility, a working tool, and not some ridiculous, estrogenical, wall-hanger that far too many "knives" have become. There's a very big difference between an working knife and the collector's knife. If I scratch my blades, I won't cry and faint. Knives are supposed to cut, skin, chop, and get some blood on them.

I will know within the next few months, if making a few knives was fun.


Frank

 

[tornitore45]

When I was in middle and high school I did a lot of filing, from several cubic inches of removed steel to precision scraping. That required muscles, stamina and a lot of time. Fast forward 50 years and I use a mill whenever possible. Even with a mill, knives shaping requires some creative set up's.

 

[BronxFigs]

So...back in March-2013, when I first started this thread, much has changed. Oh, I still want to make some knives, and, hand-file the bevels. "You-Tube" is a wonderful thing. I found all the tutorials that I need regarding the hand-filing of knife bevels, and I will use a simple jig that involves an eye-bolt/Heim joint to control the filing angles in reference to the knife blade edge. Filing jigs will fit my needs, as I will only make just a few knives. I don't need, or, want to buy more sophisticated equipment, and hand-files, and some old fashioned perspiration, area lot cheaper than belt grinder$$$.

I hooked into an free supply of used leaf-springs...various widths, lengths, and thicknesses. Most are approximately 0.250" thick, and between 2.00" - 3.00" wide. However, I have no idea what alloy steel is used for making leaf-springs. Most references say 5160/1095, but I all I really know is that the steel can be hardened, and tempered, and it's free for the asking. I will probably use it to fabricate some heavy "camp" knives.

So far I have been able to cut the leaf-springs to the proper overall length - (power hacksaw), heat the steel to a yellow-red - (propane torch), beat it flat, scribe and profile the blade blanks -(on a industrial belt grinder). I have about ten knife-blanks of various sizes and designs, all made from leaf-spring steel, and two "camp" knives, made from New Jersey Steel Baron-1084 steel. At this stage, I am ready to make the filing jig, and hand-file some bevels. Then comes the heat treating/tempering of the blades, and then, final finishing, mounting bolsters, finger guards, handle material, sharpening/stropping, etc.

The heat treating gets me nervous. Why? I don't know what various alloy steel is used in making leaf springs, but that's going to be the price I pay for using some unknown, steel alloy. All that I have read, and most of the videos that I've seen, points to heating the steel to a temperature where the blades will no longer be attracted to a magnet. The heated blades are then quickly plunged the into oil...vegetable oil, engine oil, etc. Tempering, follows. Sounds simple.... but the devil is always in the details.

I have no longer have any shop, no tooling, and must rely on some good friends to help me with my projects. Just got back from a 3-month stay in Florida. Visited a friend who has, completely-tooled-with-everything-you-could-want-or-need, wood and metal shops. Lathes, milling machines, plasma cutter/welding equipment, wood saws, metal saws, belt grinders, sanders....the tooling goes on and on. Felt like a kid in a candy store....I was in my glory! That's where I cut and profiled my knife blades. Now, I'm back in NYC, and it's where I will do the hand-filing of the bevels, and subsequent finishing of the knives.

Thanks for following and for all the useful suggestions.


Frank

 

[Herbiev]

Keep us posted Frank. Look forward to the finished product.

 

[Wizard69]

Love to see how you make out.

I'm no expert and have only hardened a few tools knowing full well the steel was oil hardening. That being said two years ago I was at CabinFever watching a blacksmith make knives out of ball bearing races. There are only so many commonly used bearing steels and his hardening process wasn't much different. Hardening though is just part of the process, it is the tempering that makes or breaks a blade.

You might want to try the knife making forums.

 

[BronxFigs]

Thanks for the interest, comments, and encouragement. Many years ago I had a friend who was a professional knife maker, and I spent many hours helping him produce high-quality knives. Spent too many long hours sitting behind display tables, at knife and gun shows, keeping him company while he tried to sell his knives. It is not easy.

My interest in knife making will probably run its course very quickly. Without having easy access to work shop kind of puts a lot of my "creative inspirations" on hold. But, I do think I should like to try making some blades, since the blade material that I will be using is available, easy to heat treat, and, free.

I have spent a great deal of time reading through many of the knife-forums, and the information I have gathered has been very helpful. Sadly, most of the advice gleaned from these knife-makers forums warn against using unknown alloy steels, and to not use old, leaf-springs, as blade material. Why? Because the leaf-springs might have developed undetectable, micro fatigue cracks. These micro cracks can cause a knife blade to fail if the blade is stressed.

Undaunted, I will still go ahead and grind/file the crap out of some of the leaf-spring blade blanks that I have already produced. I am sure my knives will not be some fancy, things of beauty, but if I can get them to cut well, and hold a good edge, that's all I want. Oh, and to have some fun while doing it, would be nice too.

If I'm successful, then I will buy some good steel, and make some better knives. I will have learned the process by then, and I will be making some better knives because of it.

Let the games begin..... Triumphs and failures, will be shared.

Thanks,
Frank

 

[44-henry]

Your enthusiasm is good, but the advice you received regarding the leaf springs is worth heeding. Old springs often do contain micro fractures which can go undetected until after the knife is finished and well I understand the frugality factor, 5160 steel is dirt cheap, easy to work and heat treat with simple methods and really is the better course to take since you know exactly what you are starting with.

Though I understand the fascination with large knives, you might consider working on a smaller scale and trying a folding knife instead. They offer plenty of challenges and you can do most of your heat treatment with a small bean can forge and a toaster oven (assuming you are working with simple to heat treat steels like 1075/80).

 

[BronxFigs]

So...here's an update:

Since my last postings, I have met a professional knife-maker who lives only 20 minutes away from me. Never knew anything about him until last week. We met, and became instant friends. I have been invited to use his shop equipment, and he will guide me along on my knife-making endeavors. I will have access to belt-grinders, disc-sanders, a surface grinder, lathe, forge, anvil, heat-treatment oven, high carbon knife steels, quenching oil, power hammer, hydraulic press....and the equipment/tool list goes on and on. I will at some point, revisit his shop, when I run into problems. I will NOT overstay my welcome, and will replace what I use.

Since I have only profiled about six blade-blanks from the old leaf springs, I will use these as practice blades. I'm heeding all the warnings regarding against using old leaf-springs. I will use a known alloy steel when it's time to make the real thing. Even though I will be able to use a belt-grinder, I probably will still make a simple jig for hand-filing the primary bevels, and for the alignment of the plunge lines. It's easier to control the symmetry. A high-powered, belt grinder can eat steel at an alarming rate, and instantly ruin a blade. So can unequally ground plunge lines. Removing metal in this critical area of the knife blade is just easier to control by using a hand-file - which will remove just a few, controllable, thousandths of an inch. I love removing unwanted metal by using power tools, but sometimes a low-tech solution can bring equally good results. More sweat, less tears, less cursing.....fewer do-overs.

So the knives have been drawn and designed on paper, templates have been cut, steel has been scribed, and blade-blanks are profiled. Next step is to generate the correct, primary bevels/plunge lines. Then prepping the blades for heat treatment/tempering.

I'll let you know when I make progress, either good or bad. Thanks for following along, and for all the good advice.

***********************************************************************************************************

QUESTION....

Because old, used, leaf-springs can often have undetected, micro, fatigue cracks/fractures....is there a good way to repurpose this free steel by maybe forging, fluxing, surface-welding, hammering, away these micro cracks? It's a lot of work, but can it be done? Not being able to reuse free, spring-steel, really bothers me...but having a knife-blade fail when stressed would bother me more. But still.....just asking.


Frank

 

[railfancwb]

Modern railroad rail may be the toughest steel in wide use. Over time it also develops micro cracks in the head (top surface where the wheels roll). Left alone those cracks can grow and lead to rail breakage and train wrecks.

So the railroads routinely have the tops of the rails ground to remove the micro cracks.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t37W3EaoIPg&sns=em[/ame]

Possibly the same approach, using a belt sander, would work with old leaf springs. Would need to deal with all four surfaces.

 

[BronxFigs]

Rail-

Thanks for the video and the added information.

Generally, in the process of cleaning up, removing surface imperfections, rust, hammer marks, and the profiling of a blade blank on a belt sander, the flat surfaces of the blade are usually ground down to level the steel. The original side edges are also ground away when the shape of the blades are generated, and ground to the scribed profile. So hopefully grinding away a few thou will take care of micro cracks. Thanks for the tip and suggestion. I'll try it.

Frank.