Ford pulling out of Australia

[Spoonman]

People have mentioned that Holden will go the same way.... I believe it is already happening.
The very popular Holden Cruze is a Chevrolet Cruze, and produced in South Korea.
.

Actually the Holden Cruze is assembled in Australia at the Elisabeth plant.


R.I.P Ford Australia Manufacturing.

 

[Iggsy]

Every single one of those who lost their jobs should be writing to their union rep and personally thank them for pricing them out of a job. Overunionised and overpaid.

Labour costs (especially low skilled and unskilled labour) in Australia are unsustainably high. I've seen newly qualified trades and professionals thinkthey are entitled to annual package of well over $100K.

Unfortunately, many other industries will go the same way as Ford - Rising cost bases (labour, power, redtape, greentape, raw materials etc.) make it increasingly difficult for a business to remain profitable here in Aus.

Personally, I think the Aus economy is in for a wild ride.

 

[jwcnc1911]

Iggsy, I agree about the wild ride... but if Australia is anything like the US look at the wage gap of workers and executives. Do you think one executive is worth millions? Corporations are trying to get rid of skilled labor not realizing it's those skilled workers in their corp as well as other corps who buy the majority of their products. We have CEOs here who are famous for killing plant jobs and sending trades to lesser economies and the media praises them. The CEO we just ran off all but put us under. Oh yeah, he took his $18,000,000 severance package and ran. He some how is still a major stockholder. But I digress, it's all workers wages killing companies. Not at all poor upper level management.

 

[jwcnc1911]

Read the part about "million hours"
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/20...5-man-and-8-75-million-ceo-shows-pay-gap.html

CEO = $11,000 Per F'ing hour!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ralph-nader/the-cruel-gap-between-ceo_b_2868557.html

Average $12million, about 380 times who's pay?
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/04/19/467516/ceo-pay-gap-2011/?mobile=wt

 

[///]

Actually the Holden Cruze is assembled in Australia at the Elisabeth plant.


R.I.P Ford Australia Manufacturing.

You are correct, thought I had read that all Cruze were Korean, but apparently it is only the wagon that is built in Korea.

 

[dj_pnevans]

Every single one of those who lost their jobs should be writing to their union rep and personally thank them for pricing them out of a job. Overunionised and overpaid.

Labour costs (especially low skilled and unskilled labour) in Australia are unsustainably high. I've seen newly qualified trades and professionals thinkthey are entitled to annual package of well over $100K.

Unfortunately, many other industries will go the same way as Ford - Rising cost bases (labour, power, redtape, greentape, raw materials etc.) make it increasingly difficult for a business to remain profitable here in Aus.

Personally, I think the Aus economy is in for a wild ride.

You hit the nail right on the head. We have only are self toblame as we want more money, the money has to come from somewhere. So things goup to pay for the extra money that we wanted.
David

 

[jack620]

Every single one of those who lost their jobs should be writing to their union rep and personally thank them for pricing them out of a job. Overunionised and overpaid.

"Overpaid"? Do you know how much a Ford factory worker earns in Australia?

"Overunionised"? Everyone on an award gets to vote on an EBA. If you think the pay rises offered in your EBA are too generous, vote NO. Don't blame the union, they just do the workers' bidding.

"Pricing them out of a job"? The Ford workers live in a First World country but should settle for less than First World wages? Tell me- how much do you think an auto-manufacturing worker in Australia should earn?

 

[jwcnc1911]

Seriously, read the articles I linked.

 

[Hopper]

Actually the Holden Cruze is assembled in Australia at the Elisabeth plant.
.

Assembled or manufactured? Huge difference.
Common practice in the car industry in Australia and other countries has often been to assemble vehicles from "CKD Kits" ie completly knocked down, or packing crates of foreign made parts, panels, engines, trans etc simply put together and painted on site in Australia in order to avoid vehicle import taxes, higher shipping charges etc.

 

[Iggsy]

I read the articles and I agree, it’s obscene what some CEO's get paid.

"Overpaid"? Do you know how much a Ford factory workerearns in Australia?

"Pricing them out of a job"? The Ford workers live in a First World country but should settle for less than First World wages? Tell me-how much do you think an auto-manufacturing worker in Australia shouldearn?

Well if we are talking wages, define first world. To me, the exact amount they get paid is not relevant - it depends on the persons skill sets, the demand for those skill sets, and the ability for the company to generate money using them. If costs outstrip revenues, there is a serious problem.

I think wages should reflect what the company can afford to pay to recruit good workers, while still remaining profitable, preferably without billions of dollars of taxpayer assistance.

And if you think you underpaid and under appreciated - work hard and get a promotion or find another job. That is how the free market works.

"Over unionised"? Everyone on an award gets to vote on an EBA. If you think the pay rises offered in your EBA are too generous, vote NO.Don't blame the union, they just do the workers' bidding.

Yes they are over unionised and consequently have poor productivity. Don't even get me started with EBA's. They usually go something like:

1. Company usually offers a pay rise, usually inline with inflation (i.e fair). Incentives may be made to employees in an effort to increase productivity.

2. Unions get involved. Encourage employees to believe they are getting ripped. Those who want to accept are bullied/intimidated by union heavies. EBA voted down and strikes ensure.

3. Company eventually caves to pressure.

4. Costs increase, profitable decreases. People get laid off, or company moves offshore.

Every industry has its exceptions, but it should be no surprise that the car industry is union heavy and unproductive.

 

[jwcnc1911]

Sounds like your envious of a job or your some sort of exec. Add up all exec salaries, pay them an acceptable wage, divide the left over money to employees. Boom good wages for all and profitable. Our board of directors earned more last year than every factory worker in the states combined including hourly and salary. That's some 20 something people earning more than 25,000 something people. I completely agree with your war on wages your just attacking the wrong wages.

 

[Hopper]

Read the part about "million hours"
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/20...5-man-and-8-75-million-ceo-shows-pay-gap.html

CEO = $11,000 Per F'ing hour!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ralph-nader/the-cruel-gap-between-ceo_b_2868557.html

Average $12million, about 380 times who's pay?
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/04/19/467516/ceo-pay-gap-2011/?mobile=wt

The whole debate on CEO salary vs worker salary is bogus.
So what if the CEO of Walmart makes $23 million a year?
That is not where the low-paid workers' missing wages goes. Walmart last year made $15.7 BILLION profit. Which went to the shareholders.

CEO Duke's $23 million is peanuts by comparison, not even two-tenths of one per cent of total profit that he is responsible for.
Even if Duke decided to cut his annual salary to $3 million a year and share the remaining $20 million a year with his workers, that would give each of Walmart's 2 million employees a whopping $10 a YEAR extra. That is about 19 cents a week. Not even enough to buy a cup of coffee at Maccas.

But if the SHAREHOLDERS were prepared to give up a similar percentage of their $15.7 billion annual dividends, that would give each employee an extra $7,000 a year.

But who are these profit hogging shareholders taking all the gold? Well, a majority are institutional investors, largely retirement funds and mutual funds that are working people's life savings. So in order to give Wally World workers higher wages are you prepared to see your retirement fund bring a return of close to zero during the best of boom times and less the rest of the time?

The stockmarket and retirement fund investing there-in is the greatest con ever foisted on the workers of the world. The corporations get us to take most of the financial risk through stocks instead of risking their own money, then tell us they have to keep our salaries down in order to pay us back the return on our own money, if they make a profit. If they don't make a profit, then we lose our retirement investment return, and our jobs.

So Ford has two choices: pay Australian workers Australian wages and give the shareholders no return, or a "negative return" on their retirement investments, or pay low Chinese wages and pay Australian and US shareholders a good return on their retirement nest-egg.

So for the 1200 Geelong Ford workers it is a cr@p deal. But for the thousands, probably millions of workers worldwide whose retirement fund has invested in Ford shares, it is the only way they will continue to have a financially secure old age.

Cutting CEO salaries will make jack difference to that.

 

[jack620]

Iggsy,
Sounds like you have a fairly large chip on your shoulder about unionised workforces.

You opened with the claim that Ford workers are overpaid. I asked you if you actually know how much they are paid and your response is that the "the exact amount they get paid is not relevant"!

Your comments about EBAs do not accord with my experiance. In my industry the company ALWAYS opens with a pay rise well below CPI and still wants productivity offsets. On a few occasions they have offered a pay freeze due to "difficult economic conditions". Strangely they always seem to find a bit of money to reward themselves large bonuses. This happens even when the company makes a loss and/or the share price falls.

 

[jack620]

But if the SHAREHOLDERS were prepared to give up a similar percentage of their $15.7 billion annual dividends, that would give each employee an extra $7,000 a year

The shareholders don't get to decide the dividend, management does. How about fair remuneration for the employees and a decent dividend?

 

[Iggsy]

Nope, just a blue collar worker (boilermaker) turned white collar (engineer) who worked hard to get a good job and doesn't suffer from class envy. I hate wealth redistribution - taking someones hard earned just so someone else who doesn't have the responsibility/skills/education/work ethic sucks. No incentive to better yourself.

People get paid on their ability to earn a company money - there is no other reason. Pay a CEO 10 Million to make the company 10 Billion? Purely in terms of numbers, it sounds like a good deal to me. In Fords case, it sounds like their CEO hasn't done his job and should be shown the door along with the workers.

In any case, I said I agreed with you - I think CEO salarys are excessive. But we were talking about Ford and they posted a second quarter loss of $424 Million. I don't think cutting the board of directors salaries alone is going to keep them in the black.

 

[jwcnc1911]

That's a very valuable point Hopper and I most definitely agree. That is yet another nail in the proverbial economic coffin. But I'm not on that soap box right now.

In fact I'm about to bow out here as I see this going no where. I'd like to leave it where we can sociably amicably talk about model engines.

 

[Hopper]

The shareholders don't get to decide the dividend, management does. How about fair remuneration for the employees and a decent dividend?

Management has to give shareholders the dividend they want, or the shareholders will pull their money out and invest it elsewhere. Again it comes down to shareholders wanting their pound of flesh.

Also, in Australia, corporate governance laws require that boards of directors and "management" run listed companies in the best interest of the shareholders. All decisions made must be able to stand the test of being in the shareholders' best interest. No mention of running companies in the interest of workers, the environment or the community.
Sadly, the usual way of measuring shareholders' "best interest" is the dividend.

 

[Iggsy]

Iggsy,
Sounds like you have a fairly large chip on your shoulder about unionised workforces.

In my experience, unionised workforces are the laziest bludgers I have ever come across and want control over the direction of the company they are not entitled to. Believe it not, your employer is paying you to do a job, not out the goodness of their hearts.I have seen too many strikes over non-issues to believe otherwise.

I asked you if you actually know how much they are paid and your response is that the "the exact amount they get paid is not relevant"!

It isn't relevent. The company was paying them to much for too little productivity because it is not profitable - hence they have moved offshore. Whatever they were getting paid would have been a lot better than the dole where a lot will end up (for the short term anyway). If Ford doesn't pay well enough for them, they are always able to change jobs.

On a few occasions they have offered a pay freeze due to "difficult economic conditions".

Think about that next time you union encourages you to strike for a better pay deal. You might end up like the workers at Ford.

And I think I have had enough too. I do feel for the workers and their families - it is a tough economic climate at the moment and I suspect it will be difficult to find another job.

 

[Hopper]

Here are the workers Ford dreams of having.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMMMnNtBOHM"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMMMnNtBOHM[/ame]

Horrifying to watch for a former toolmaker who served his time on heavy press tooling in a car factory.
That is at least a 500-ton press and nobody should be within four feet of it when that top table comes down.
I think this is about the scariest thing I have ever seen outside a combat zone.

 

[aarggh]

I have no issues with paying obscene wages for *good* talent in management, but it must also largely be made up of incentives and performance bonuses. Simply paying obscene amounts while suffering losses is plain wrong. And then paying out "Golden Handshakes" to get rid of these parasites is further insult to injury. In my job, we have incentives, if the company doesn't make profits of certain amounts, no bonus, plain and simple! High salaries must be as a result of high performance IMHO.

cheers, Ian