Entry level machine

[CreativeName]

First day on the forum, first post, looking for some direction on starting out.

I was hoping to get into this reasonably cheap, which I understand is a bit contradictory. So I have a few questions about an initial set up. If I decide to stick with the hobby I’m sure I can upgrade machines or replace them. I’m more interested in jumping right into the making than converting a machine from hand crank to cnc or anything like that. So an off the shelf solution would be ideal if possible, but I’m open to whatever

So with that in mind, if I’m looking at a no-name machine how can I tell what it’s capable of? Can I get a less capable machine but still make it work by reducing feed rate?

My understanding is that the limiting factor is structural robustness in the framework, if I were to buy a machine and find it has trouble making the cuts I’d like, is it possible to reenforce the frame or add some sort of vibration dampening to cure whatever problems I run into?

As far as my prereqs, I’ve some fairly extensive experience with fdm. For cnc I had one class in college where I engraved a piece of plastic with some lettering. But at least we wrote out the g code long hand to do it, so that’s something haha

I did look for a sticky thread or something and didn’t see it, if I’m posting in the wrong place, sorry I’ll fix it

 

[Zeb]

Before going directly to a machine you may not need...

• What will be the biggest/smallest engine project you might be building?
• How much shop space if any?

 

[CreativeName]

Before going directly to a machine you may not need...

• What will be the biggest/smallest engine project you might be building?
• How much shop space if any?

Hey thanks for replying

I don’t have a good answer to engine size. Or a whole lot of things since I’m just getting into this. Of course we all would like to say we want to make a mini dohc v12 with a tiny super charger, but to start out I’m thinking piston engines that are about the size needed for rc cars or similar. Maybe a little bigger.

For shop space I’m not too restricted. I didn’t think I’d be getting very large machines because I’m trying to start out cheap, but if I need to go to something the size of a couple dressers I can make it work. I was picturing bench top machines that are maybe 2’ square footprint at first?

On that topic, do I need a mill and a lathe or if I’m making kind of beginner level stuff can I get away with just the mill?

 

[dnalot]

When buying a lathe you generally get most everything you need with the machine. A milling machine on the other hand requires a lot of stuff that does not come with the machine. Figure the mills base price is about half of what you will need to spend to make it functional.

Mark T

 

[ShopShoe]

CreativeName,

Something to consider:

Traditional advice points to getting a lathe first. As dnalot points out, it is usually less expensive and less elaborate to start making things with a lathe than it is with a mill. It is possible to do milling operations with a lathe equipped with a milling attachment.

With your 2 x 2 footprint size, the 2-foot long dimension means a pretty small lathe, but if you are making RC car engines, the smaller machines will fit on 2 x 2 and 2 x 3 surfaces.

Some additional points:

You may see some discussion about lathe and mill combination machines, but general feeling is that two separate machines may work much better for most users.

Another way you could go is with the TAIG or Sherline machines, which share components such that you could configure either a lathe or a mill from parts of the system, but with more hassle than the combination machine discussed above. My thought is you could buy a lathe or mill from one of those sources and then get parts to create the complementary machine, or you could add the other as you go.

The lathe-first recommendation generally applies to manual machines, but with a CNC mill, it might work to start with the mill. Disadvantage of that approach is that you'll spend a lot of time working with the computer to start and you'll need the money to invest in computer-related pieces.

More:

You'll need to invest and use precision-measuring tools as well as metal-cutting machines, so those purchases also need to exist from the beginning. So figure a third work area for assembling and measuring.

What was my path?

After wanting a large lathe for many years and not starting any machining, I got a 7 x 12 Mini-Lathe with a milling attachment and started there.

I already had a drill press that I used, but a drill press can't do milling operations.

I purchased one of the 4 x 6 metal-cutting bandsaws very quickly because I found I was spending a lot of time sawing metal by hand when I could have been machining. I had room for it in my garage shop.

I ordered a mill within the year. I got a mill-drill machine capable of a larger work envelope than the lathe because setting up pieces on the mill needs table room for clamping and vise and cutter setups need more height above the table. As has been said, there is much more to be spent on tooling up a mill than a lathe.

Good Luck and let us know how you proceed.

--ShopShoe

 

[costerjr]

You might want to look at the PM 25MV. It is bigger then the Sherline, but as stated above you need room to clamp down the material. It is also big enough to last a long time in a hobby shop. Watch Blondihack's videos to see how large of stuff she can work with. With that said, I have the next size up. The PM 30MV. You will quickly run out of Z before you hit X or Y limits. When you watch Quinn Improvise to mill something, I have an extra 3" to make it easy. There are other brands of good machines that are the same size. If possible, try to get Taiwan made equipment, They are better then Chinese at this time.
What was said about buying tooling is correct. You will easily double the price of the mill with tooling. You can do slowly by really studying the options. Like R8 collets vs endmill holders vs ER32 collets. The measuring tools, mics, calipers etc will be used for lathe and mill.

She uses a PM 1022 Lathe which is also big enough to handle a good size project.

 

[CreativeName]

Thanks for the advice guys!

I’m not locked in to the 2x2 footprint, so I’m open to suggestions.

I love the idea of a machine that can do both. But for making an ic engine don’t I have to have a mill or router? Is it possible to make an entire engine with only a lathe?

For just getting into this, what about a machine like this? I don’t see it’s build volume (or whatever you call it in machining) listed, the title says wood working but the description says it can do aluminum and other soft metals. It’s suspiciously low priced, just asking if I’m on the right track. But hey if a $150 machine will get me started gaining experience it’s worth it even if I end up trashing it in a year and getting something better imho. That means I had enough fun to justify the expense.

When you say I’d be spending a lot of time on the computer, are you saying I will be writing firmware and whatnot, or are you saying I will be spending a lot of time modeling and making tool paths?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3936454962...8NdSuLkTXO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

[Vietti]

I'd get a lathe if I could have only one machine tool. The lathe is said to be the only tool that can replicate itself, thus the moniker as the "Queen of the machine tools".

 

[costerjr]

You get what you pay for!!!! There is not enough machine there for any kind of rigidity. So when you have all sorts of trouble and chatter and you can't figure out what to do, then you will be disgusted and give up metal working. A decent mill vise (NOT the best) will cost more then this machine. On your question about the lathe. The lathe is often quoted as the only machine that can repair it self. Yes, you can build an entire engine with only a lathe. It takes a milling adapter or else a very inventive way to hold and adjust parts for drilling or machining.
Lots of people have built engines with only a lathe and some kits advertise this. But you really do need a larger size lathe, say 9-10" minimum

 

[Richard Hed]

The lathe is the no. 1 tool in any machine shop. You can make about 90% of everything with a lathe (some times with specialized tools). Another question is how much $$ have you got to spend? that matters, as if you have lots, you should get a larger machine. Also, there are used machines you can get that are good. I see you are in USA but USA is a big country. If you live near manufacturing centers you can often buy from used dealers or auctions (just watch out for the auctions as you need to spend about half what you normally would). Those manufacturing centers are around Los Angeles, Texas, Illinois, Michigan, NY and East Coast in general.

Knowing the nomenclature of size helps.

 

[timo_gross]

It is all very eypensive, at least for me. (constantly overspending on equipment, that I pretend I need)
A lot can be done with less equipment. (I am totally guilty of getting nothing done, with far too much equipment... )

What you really need: ( my advise I never followed myself )

• Energy (more mental than electrical, but 60A three phase power is fine too), patience and time. Look at this example.

• small drill press that is not too horrible (a 60USD cheap machine is better than none, but it will be very unsatisfying on the long run)
• Belt sander (much more useful than I thought and got mine far too late)
• files, hack saw, bench vise, measuring tools
• lathe, the most expensive and biggest ( up to a certain size ) you can (want to) buy.
  • read in the older British Model Engineering books, there you can see what can be done with less

This thread covers a lot of the basic discussions about what you need and what you do not need.

https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/cnc-options.33680/
Greetings TImo

p.s. with more equipment the time spent does not get less, only the workflow becomes more complicated, if you are efficient maybe the projects become more complicated. (at least that is what I keep telling to myself ) There is a risk that the overhead becomes selfserving.

 

[ajoeiam]

Before going directly to a machine you may not need...

• What will be the biggest/smallest engine project you might be building?
• How much shop space if any?

Forgot a crucial point - - - - - How much money do you want to spend?

(I'd suggest dividing that number in 1/2 as one also needs to buy tooling and some fixtures or accessories . . . )

 

[ajoeiam]

Hey thanks for replying

I don’t have a good answer to engine size. Or a whole lot of things since I’m just getting into this. Of course we all would like to say we want to make a mini dohc v12 with a tiny super charger, but to start out I’m thinking piston engines that are about the size needed for rc cars or similar. Maybe a little bigger.

For shop space I’m not too restricted. I didn’t think I’d be getting very large machines because I’m trying to start out cheap, but if I need to go to something the size of a couple dressers I can make it work. I was picturing bench top machines that are maybe 2’ square footprint at first?

On that topic, do I need a mill and a lathe or if I’m making kind of beginner level stuff can I get away with just the mill?

An important point to remember - - - the capabilities of the machine are not necessarily reflected in the price.

A very high accuracy quality machine that's small can be very very pricey.
A simple but larger machine that is accurate will also not be cheap.
This is NOT a hobby where cheap really seems to be much in evidence.
(Not trying to scare you off just making sure your expectations are realistic!)

In fact - - - if you have space it is often far cheaper to buy larger equipment - - - you can find old used equipment for far less than the smaller equipment that hobbyists use but then you need space - - - a 2 car garage comes to mind for a minimum in this case (and that might not be enough!!!! - - -grin!)

You can make things cheaper with a mountain of time and ingenuity but you would also need to be starting with skills - - - vis a vis making your own lathe and mill - - - - its doable and very high quality machines can result but if you don't have skills beforehand - - - - and even if you do - - - this kind of project (making your base machines) are very large time sinks.

(Research (I think its ) Alan Gingery and he goes through casting your own parts and making a shaper, mill, lathe AND a lot more. Making machines can become its own rabbit hole - - - seriously this hobby can become incredibly complex - - - this does NOT mean cheap!)

 

[CreativeName]

You get what you pay for!!!! There is not enough machine there for any kind of rigidity. So when you have all sorts of trouble and chatter and you can't figure out what to do, then you will be disgusted and give up metal working. A decent mill vise (NOT the best) will cost more then this machine. On your question about the lathe. The lathe is often quoted as the only machine that can repair it self. Yes, you can build an entire engine with only a lathe. It takes a milling adapter or else a very inventive way to hold and adjust parts for drilling or machining.
Lots of people have built engines with only a lathe and some kits advertise this. But you really do need a larger size lathe, say 9-10" minimum

Hey thanks for the info. I kind of assumed this machine was on the bottom end, just wanted to see if I was on track conceptually. I had never heard of a milling lathe before. Sounds like you’re saying I am, but this particular machine will be buying a frustration machine instead of a production machine.

 

[CreativeName]

The lathe is the no. 1 tool in any machine shop. You can make about 90% of everything with a lathe (some times with specialized tools). Another question is how much $$ have you got to spend? that matters, as if you have lots, you should get a larger machine. Also, there are used machines you can get that are good. I see you are in USA but USA is a big country. If you live near manufacturing centers you can often buy from used dealers or auctions (just watch out for the auctions as you need to spend about half what you normally would). Those manufacturing centers are around Los Angeles, Texas, Illinois, Michigan, NY and East Coast in general.

Knowing the nomenclature of size helps.

Well I’m in luck. I live in the general area of Norfolk and all it’s ship yards, but I’m temporarily in Indy starting a business. I’ll def keep an eye out. Can you give me some hints to boost my Google fu in learning some of the size nomenclature as you suggested? And any other terminology a new guy should know?

 

[CreativeName]

An important point to remember - - - the capabilities of the machine are not necessarily reflected in the price.

A very high accuracy quality machine that's small can be very very pricey.
A simple but larger machine that is accurate will also not be cheap.
This is NOT a hobby where cheap really seems to be much in evidence.
(Not trying to scare you off just making sure your expectations are realistic!)

In fact - - - if you have space it is often far cheaper to buy larger equipment - - - you can find old used equipment for far less than the smaller equipment that hobbyists use but then you need space - - - a 2 car garage comes to mind for a minimum in this case (and that might not be enough!!!! - - -grin!)

You can make things cheaper with a mountain of time and ingenuity but you would also need to be starting with skills - - - vis a vis making your own lathe and mill - - - - its doable and very high quality machines can result but if you don't have skills beforehand - - - - and even if you do - - - this kind of project (making your base machines) are very large time sinks.

(Research (I think its ) Alan Gingery and he goes through casting your own parts and making a shaper, mill, lathe AND a lot more. Making machines can become its own rabbit hole - - - seriously this hobby can become incredibly complex - - - this does NOT mean cheap!)

Hey thanks man. Whenever I get into a new hobby that has a lot of r equipment requirements I usually end up cheaping out at first. My philosophy on it is that if I use it long enough to either break it or exceed it’s capabilities then I am committed enough to the hobby to justify the upgrade to better kit. Obviously the above captioned eBay machine might be too cheap, but it was more for an example about machines themselves. Some times you get lucky too, sometimes the harbor freight tools are just as good as the craftsman ones. Probably unlikely with a lathe haha

Anyway I’ll be keeping an eye on the used market as well

 

[Zeb]

Google mini lathe. This old tony does a funny review of them. There's plenty of passionate discussion on this forum as well!

 

[Shopgeezer]

Watch Blondi Hacks’ video on buying a lathe. She goes over her machine and points out the features you want and need. I highly recommend getting the right machine in the first place. I didn’t and have paid the price in time wasted and lack of capability. If you want an example of a good lathe to start with this is one:

https://www.busybeetools.com/products/lathe-10in-x22in-metal-with-digital-readout.html
I talked a friend out of buying a 7x22 mini lathe and ordering this one instead. Wish I had done the same.

 

[Richard Hed]

Well I’m in luck. I live in the general area of Norfolk and all it’s ship yards, but I’m temporarily in Indy starting a business. I’ll def keep an eye out. Can you give me some hints to boost my Google fu in learning some of the size nomenclature as you suggested? And any other terminology a new guy should know?

Well th e shipyards may have mills and lathes that wouldn't even fit in your house from end to end, but they might also have smaller ones. Indy has lots of used and auctions too. But be ware of auctions--cost a LOT more than the surface bid.

As for a lathe, the basic measurement is X by Y. For instance a small lathe might be called a 9 x 20. This means that the largest piece of material you could get into this lathe is 9" round which is known as the "swing". The 20 refers to the longest piece you could get into the lathe. So often you will see people refer to a lathe as "9 by 20" or 15 X 60. Mine is 12 X 36. It is the same designation for mini-lathes but I really don'r recommend something that small unless you are making clocks or somethign with tiny parts.

When buying a lathe watch VERY CAREFULLY what the lathe is capable of doing. I mean, I had been working in industry for 20 years when I bought my second lathe which was an Enco 9 X 20. I had workt in industry so long that it never occurred to me that any lathe would not do Left Hand threads. So when I got the Enco home, imagine my disappointment (anger) in finding the piece of crap would not do LH threads! So my recommendations is to make a list of ALL the characteristics of any expensive tool you will be buying and then check each characteristic when examining y90ur potential buy.

Another thing in buying a lathe is the way speeds and feeds are changed. A cheaper lathe will have fewer feeds and fewer speeds. Also, the smaller the lathe you will have a lowest speed (RPMs) that is higher than a larger lathe. For instance my Enco's slowest speed is 120 RPM which makes threading very difficult. But the Grizz G4003G will go at the slowest 70RPMs which is quite amenable to cutting threads. However, I wish that I had even slower speeds for certain things.

There are "change gears" that almost always come with a lathe. This is used mostly in threading where you need a threading speed that is different from the factory setup, so you change the gears to the one you need. This particvularly is needed when changing from Imperial (inch) to Metric and vice versa. If you buy a China direct sale, watch carefully because they often will NOT include the STANDARD equipment of: 3-jaw Chuck, 4-jaw chuck, steady rest, travelling rest, various centers. Also, always watch for the tool holder, you DEFINITELY will be wanting a "quick change" tool post but most smaller lathes come with a square tool post which one needs to shimmy the tool to the right height--not amenable if one is short of time. Also, if you buy from an auction, the usual trick (dishonest in MY view) is to break up the set and sell them all separately. That is, they take the 4-jaw and other parts and sell them elsewhere.

There is a lot more about buying a lathe, but this isd a start. Good luck

 

[Gordon]

You may want to watch Craigslist and FB Marketplace and post it here and get a reaction from the folks here as to price and usability. You will frequently find basically the same machine listed for $500 in one place and $2000 in another. Frequently things can be listed for close to new price or even more than new.