Electric car plant

[stevehuckss396]

I was plugging along at work trying to get the factory zero GM plant finished and I realized I am working less than a mile from where the anderson company made the Detroit electric automobile starting back in 1907. 115 years later here we are less than a mile away trying it again. The picture was takin out of the loading dock door. The old building on the right is the old anderson complex.

 

[GreenTwin]

Plant start-ups can be a white knuckle experience.

You get to find out all the design and installation issues.

I recall many days of very heated meetings, and enough finger pointing to last a lifetime.

Good luck.

Pat J
.

 

[rklopp]

Tesla just announced the 2-millionth car out of the Fremont plant. Pretty mind-boggling what they've done, and they've got huge plants in Texas, Berlin, and Shanghai.

 

[lohring]

I've owned a Tesla Model 3 performance version for 4 years and 67,000 miles. It's been the best car I've owned in 60 years of car ownership.

 

[Shopgeezer]

I have a dozen or so small gas engines around the farm and I am very keen to replace them all with battery electric tools. I want one battery system though so have to wait a bit longer for yard and garden manufacturers to bring out a complete line of electric outdoor equipment. A friend bought an electric chain saw and I was interested in how well it would work. Lots of power but even the extended duty (expensive) batteries did not last long enough to do any useful work. He ended up trading it back for a gas saw. As with all our electric ambitions, it is all about the battery.

 

[bluejets]

He ended up trading it back for a gas saw. As with all our electric ambitions, it is all about the battery.

Yes, it's not all glory glory when it comes to battery power.
One rarely hears the downside or in fact, the dust to dust effect of all the lithium waste that will appear in time to come.
We do get a good run out of 4 and 5Ah Dewalt originals in out power tools except for the vacuum cleaner.
It sucks the guts out of each of the above in no time flat.

Your friends chain saw may well be a cheapo and most battery powered gear uses a combination of 18650 cells in varying capacities.
There are stories all over about junk 18650 cells both in their internal makeup and in their highly overrated capacities.
As for a chainsaw, I'll have a good old 2 stroke smoke spewing engine anyday.

Just saw images of exploding stars in our galaxy where the smoke and dust is thousands of light years across.
A little old 2 stroke outputs contribution is well down on any above effect.

 

[swarf]

Not sure if true or not, but I've heard EV batteries last 8-10 yrs and are in the neighborhood of 10 to 20 grand to replace.

 

[Steamchick]

Just been looking at "hybrid" replacement batteries... A guy from a company that refurbishes these, and larger traction batteries for Battery only cars, says that it is all down to duty cycle. A Taxi, (24 hour town use) will probably need a hybrid battery replacing after 5 years, for £2~300. A Nissan Leaf, £3000-ish, A Tesla (Huge money!).
But a domestic user, commuting, etc. so the car is parked for 23 or 24 hours a day, will get between 8 and 12 years use, before the warning lights say "Use-by-date exceeded". But the battery may be "re-furbished" for less than that. And the industry is getting more recycled batteries for second use anyway, so prices are coming down year on year.
Suppose you do 10,000miles per year, saving 10p per mile on "liquid fuel" by using electricity from the grid.
You have saved £1000 per year, = £10,000 in 10 years, so £3000 for a replacement battery after 10 years won't worry many customers who do not keep cars for more than 5 years from new. But some are replacing after 3~5 years for "latest technology and more range"... so I read somewhere.
All the cells are recycled into "Domestic storage batteries" (to link to your solar panels), and other applications. Any shorted cells are re-cycled so the minerals (Lithium can be Highly Flammable - so do not open up a cell!) are recycled anyway. I think Lithium comes from sea water? So can be returned? But cheaper to recycle - apparently?
But I don't know how accurate my "education" has been on the subject. I just "plugged the batteries into the Nissan Leaf!" as a part of the test work.
The biggest risk to mechanics is Electric Shock. 380V DC will lock you solid and kill you in a minute or so. You can't scream with locked muscles. So don't risk it. It probably hurts like hell as well.
K2

 

[ajoeiam]

Just been looking at "hybrid" replacement batteries... A guy from a company that refurbishes these, and larger traction batteries for Battery only cars, says that it is all down to duty cycle. A Taxi, (24 hour town use) will probably need a hybrid battery replacing after 5 years, for £2~300. A Nissan Leaf, £3000-ish, A Tesla (Huge money!).
But a domestic user, commuting, etc. so the car is parked for 23 or 24 hours a day, will get between 8 and 12 years use, before the warning lights say "Use-by-date exceeded". But the battery may be "re-furbished" for less than that. And the industry is getting more recycled batteries for second use anyway, so prices are coming down year on year.
Suppose you do 10,000miles per year, saving 10p per mile on "liquid fuel" by using electricity from the grid.
You have saved £1000 per year, = £10,000 in 10 years, so £3000 for a replacement battery after 10 years won't worry many customers who do not keep cars for more than 5 years from new. But some are replacing after 3~5 years for "latest technology and more range"... so I read somewhere.
All the cells are recycled into "Domestic storage batteries" (to link to your solar panels), and other applications. Any shorted cells are re-cycled so the minerals (Lithium can be Highly Flammable - so do not open up a cell!) are recycled anyway. I think Lithium comes from sea water? So can be returned? But cheaper to recycle - apparently?
But I don't know how accurate my "education" has been on the subject. I just "plugged the batteries into the Nissan Leaf!" as a part of the test work.
The biggest risk to mechanics is Electric Shock. 380V DC will lock you solid and kill you in a minute or so. You can't scream with locked muscles. So don't risk it. It probably hurts like hell as well.
K2

This post has me wondering about how to find a connection in my part of the world.

I am working on modifying my current power service.
Am on 240V 200 A single phase.
Looking at adding a 240 to 480 V (single phase) transformer.
Also adding a 480 single phase (better 2 phase) to three phase electronic converter.

I want to be able to run 240 single phase, 230 and 460 V (at least 460 V) three phase motors and systems.
Looking at a complex (tri-gen) power system and this is where a large storage battery (at reasonable cost) is a crucial component.
I am wondering about filter any power I produce not from solar, ie from wind - - maybe, or biomass combustion - - quite likely, so that I have clean power.

Please - - - - does your connection have knowledge of similar entities on this side of the water (hopefully mid continent too)?

TIA

 

[Shopgeezer]

The friend’s chainsaw was a major brand and quite expensive. Supposedly intended for serious users. As disappointed as I was with its performance I can’t help think that we are in a major technology change and all the solutions are ahead of us. I can imagine all the complaining about smokey noisy gasoline powered buggies in their day. It took a lot of years to develop that technology.

I can’t imagine being without my battery operated tools. Same for the pneumatic nailers although I am converting over to battery power there too. Far easier than hoisting an air compressor up a ladder. In small to moderate current draw applications lithium batteries are great. But we need a better battery technology for high draw applications like vehicles and that is on the way. Huge research and investment in battery technology right now. I suspect most of us will see it in our lifetimes, old and crotchety as we are.

I can’t help but wonder where we would be now if the old Anderson company had continued making electric vehicles.

 

[user 48634]

Several years ago, Lowe's came out with their own brand "Kobalt" lithium powered garden tools. I bought a blower, hedge trimmer and string trimmer. They all used the same battery. I got two batteries so that I always had one charged up. I'm still using these tools and they have worked flawlessly for at least six years. They met every expectation I had. I do not like storing gasoline and oil in my garage or dragging a power cord all over my yard.

 

[user 48634]

Several years ago, Lowe's came out with their own brand "Kobalt" lithium powered garden tools. I bought a blower, hedge trimmer and string trimmer. They all used the same battery. I got two batteries so that I always had one charged up. I'm still using these tools and they have worked flawlessly for at least six years. They met every expectation I had. I do not like storing gasoline and oil in my garage or dragging a power cord all over my yard.

 

[swarf]

Plant start-ups can be a white knuckle experience.

You get to find out all the design and installation issues.

I recall many days of very heated meetings, and enough finger pointing to last a lifetime.

Good luck.

Pat J
.

Just came off a quasi cogen project and you are 100% spot on, finger pointing, head games, will the turbine spin lol etc

 

[swarf]

My 40yr old Homelite 50cc two stroker chain saw still going strong. My 25 yr old 4hp tecumseh mower never misses a beat. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
All this electrical conversion because of "climate change"
I find (in my opinion) the idea of "man made" climate change a little more than misleading, especially when the earth has done more harm to itself over time than we ever have.

 

[Shopgeezer]

Yeah but no excuse for us doing the harm. We know better. I mostly want to get rid of 10 oil changes and hauling gas all summer. I’ll take a solar cell and charging station any day. Way more efficient and I don’t get yelled at for gas stains in the car carpets.

 

[swarf]

"Yeah but no excuse for us doing the harm" in your opinion.

 

[Bentwings]

I think you connected both ends correctly. Just look ATTHE 535 AD ERUPTIONS they were the last really big deals excep for mt St. Helens . Man has don very little to the earth for climate change nor can it undo much. The dems just don’t believe science because it doesn’t fit their agenda. Hopefully many of us will vote them out and we can get on with real world things. I hope I live long enough to see this start to happen .

I better step off my portable podium so I don’t upset the moderators



My 40yr old Homelite 50cc two stroker chain saw still going strong. My 25 yr old 4hp tecumseh mower never misses a beat. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
All this electrical conversion because of "climate change"
I find (in my opinion) the idea of "man made" climate change a little more than misleading, especially when the earth has done more harm to itself over time than we ever have.

 

[Apprentice707]

I am very split on this matter, I have had a hybrid car (Lexus RX450h) for the past 8 years, it is now 11 years old and still performs well. The last service indicated that the batteries are still achieving 98% charge retention.
Last week I went shopping for a new car for my wife to replace her 16-year-old Mercedes SLK 200, an excellent car that returns over 40 miles to the gallon. A small hybrid SUV at a reasonable trim standard costs over £40,000 and this brings into play the government's latest revenue earner the increased car tax for 5 years after purchase. Although the road tax may be £0 because of the additional tax it then becomes £330, this really doesn't encourage electric/hybrid ownership. On the matter of all-electric cars, I am concerned about the range of these vehicles and what happens when a 5-hour jam occurs on the M25 on a boiling hot day and the users have their a/c on (or heater in cold weather)? How do they recover scores of vehicles with flat batteries or even worse people with medical conditions?

On the subject of Lithium, I thought I would have a punt on some Lithium mine shares, these were for a Canadian company mining in Arizona so I bought some, they did well for a while until Obama took the reins in the USA and condemned the mining of Lithium, the shares fell overnight so once again the public end up with the bill.

Incidentally, the solar panels on my UK home work well and are as advertised, but they are only economical because I get the larger FIT that was prevalent 10 years ago. I don't think they are as good now unless the system has a rechargeable battery bank (Costs £5000 +)

What are other members' thoughts on this subject?

 

[terryd]

Just been looking at "hybrid" replacement batteries... A guy from a company that refurbishes these, and larger traction batteries for Battery only cars, says that it is all down to duty cycle. A Taxi, (24 hour town use) will probably need a hybrid battery replacing after 5 years, for £2~300. A Nissan Leaf, £3000-ish, A Tesla (Huge money!).
But a domestic user, commuting, etc. so the car is parked for 23 or 24 hours a day, will get between 8 and 12 years use, before the warning lights say "Use-by-date exceeded". But the battery may be "re-furbished" for less than that. And the industry is getting more recycled batteries for second use anyway, so prices are coming down year on year.
Suppose you do 10,000miles per year, saving 10p per mile on "liquid fuel" by using electricity from the grid.
You have saved £1000 per year, = £10,000 in 10 years, so £3000 for a replacement battery after 10 years won't worry many customers who do not keep cars for more than 5 years from new. But some are replacing after 3~5 years for "latest technology and more range"... so I read somewhere.
All the cells are recycled into "Domestic storage batteries" (to link to your solar panels), and other applications. Any shorted cells are re-cycled so the minerals (Lithium can be Highly Flammable - so do not open up a cell!) are recycled anyway. I think Lithium comes from sea water? So can be returned? But cheaper to recycle - apparently?
But I don't know how accurate my "education" has been on the subject. I just "plugged the batteries into the Nissan Leaf!" as a part of the test work.
The biggest risk to mechanics is Electric Shock. 380V DC will lock you solid and kill you in a minute or so. You can't scream with locked muscles. So don't risk it. It probably hurts like hell as well.
K2

Hi,
Regarding use of batteries to link to solar panels for power storage for when the sun don't shine. I have solar panels and considerd the advantage when a friend explained that he had a 5kW battery installed in his system. last time I looked 7kW was about the maximum available - things may be different now - then I looked at the costs involved v rewards. My friends 5kW battery cost around £5000 to install and will last around 8 years.

My electricity per kW hr cost me around 31pence (A high cost as there is no service charge with my supplier on top of energy price, but it was less than 20p before the latest price hike!) so to fill my supposed battery costs £1.55p per day i.e. £565 or so per year ('cost' = amount of electricity saved per day when paels not charging assuming I use the full capacity per day) and at that rate it would take me 8.8 years to cover costs of battery and insulation not such a good investment as the battery fails in 8 years and we know that battery function detriorates as the y get older so it would probably take much longer to recover costs - not such a good bargain then. Another problem is that during the winter months in the English Midlands when I need more storage due to cold and dark days/nights, I find that I only charge at around 1 - 4 kWhr for several weeks so my battery will never get fully charged thus theoretically taking much longer to pay back the original investment perhaps a 1/3rd again so possible 11 -12 years to recoup my costs.

There is of course another downside. As an incentive to install panel our goverment invented the Feed in Tariff (FIT) which an energy company pays direct to me for every kW I feed into the electricity grid and I have a special meter for that. I had the system installed when the tariff was at it's height just before it started reducing and was paid 44.1p for every unit (kW hr) I fed into the grid. however they assume that every unit generated goes ito the grid even when we use it as the separation of the two i.e domestic use and grid supply is expensive and difficult. with inflation at perhaps 11% this year my FIT will increase to around 68p per unit so I'm quids in but in future but they may seperate domestic and grid feed and I will lose some income on my investment, but also I lose the 5kW I store at a cost of £1.55p but lose the approx £4.00 FIT of those units. Not a good bargain.

So you can see why I opted not to invest in battery technology at the moment. By the way, my panels paid for themselves within 8 years and I have the increasing income from them for the next 18 years (25 year contract)

TerryD

 

[Robsmith]

Yes, it's not all glory glory when it comes to battery power.
One rarely hears the downside or in fact, the dust to dust effect of all the lithium waste that will appear in time to come.
We do get a good run out of 4 and 5Ah Dewalt originals in out power tools except for the vacuum cleaner.
It sucks the guts out of each of the above in no time flat.

Your friends chain saw may well be a cheapo and most battery powered gear uses a combination of 18650 cells in varying capacities.
There are stories all over about junk 18650 cells both in their internal makeup and in their highly overrated capacities.
As for a chainsaw, I'll have a good old 2 stroke smoke spewing engine anyday.

Just saw images of exploding stars in our galaxy where the smoke and dust is thousands of light years across.
A little old 2 stroke outputs contribution is well down on any above effect.

The good ol lithium battery hates the cold. My vacuum goes flat in minutes unless I sit it in the sun for 20 minutes then recharge it (from supposedly full) After15 minutes of more charging, the vacuum will run for 30 minutes.