Bolton No 7 casting kit... Good value..?

[Ca-g]

I am thinking of buying a Bolton No 7 kit from EJ Winter. Although it seems to have been around for a long time I can find very few references to people making them. It is quite expensive ($400) so I am wondering if anyone here has assembled one? Are they good? How hard is it? Does it need any particularly special equipment? I have a Taig mill, small Sieg lathe, and a Hercus C ( locally made South Bend 9" copy).

Part of the attraction is it is a local kit, made only about 100kms away from Sydney where I live. Also, it is not tiny, sometimes I wonder if I should just make a full size one! Just kidding...

 

[Tin Falcon]

http://www.ejwinter.com.au/catalogue/E%20J%20Winter%20ME%20Supplies%20Catalogue%20July%202011.pdf

I think the main reason that kit is so expensive is the size. a 1.5 " bore is a good sized model.
A PM research No 1 is only $114 1" bore 1.5 stroke

1.5^3 = 3.375 3.375 x $114 = 384.75 so the laws of scaling.
the PMR1 is 7.3 lbs so i expect the E.J . Winter no 7 to weigh in around 25 lbs.

so your shop your dime.

Is this crazy money for that model in today's market probably not. Is it a good value that is for you to decide.
Hope this perspective helps.

And please when you get a chance post an introduction in the welcome section . tell us a bit about yourself your shop and your interest and or experience in model engine building.
I know you covered some of that info here but an introduction just helps us all .
Tin

 

[oliomio]

Hi, I made a Bolton No 7. Photos posted on this site. I cant comment about the value because it is the first model engine I have made. But I can say that the plans, the instruction book, and the castings were all excellent. I think that your 9" lathe and the smallish mill should be quite adequate. The flywheel is the biggest part and it is 7"diameter. Kelly Mayberry at EJ Winter was always happy to answer questions on the phone. I suspect that the rather larger size means it is a bit easier to machine than the smaller models. It does require a decent size boiler. I made the EJWinter 4"x7" horizontal boiler which was recommended by Kelly. By the time you have bought a few extra bits and pieces (taps, valves, oilers, nuts and bolts and taps and dies) you will end up spending significantly more than the cost of the castings. I am happy to recommend it, but I have nothing to compare it with. It is nice to get any extra bits and pieces locally, especially when you stuff up and need replacements.

 

[Ca-g]

Hi Olio,

I had seen your pictures and they are partly the inspiration, buying local was another however. I have rung Kelly a few times to enquire how to interpret the price list, I get his answerphone with an old message. This doesn't put me off, it sounds just like me, I'll keep trying.

The size is an attraction, I think I would really like a full size engine. The idea that a larger engine might be easier to machine had not occurred to me, but its not a bad thing. It will be a year or so before I can get to working the castings but I want to get them now while I have a little money.

 

[Ca-g]

PS. Is there any video of your 7 running on steam anywhere..?

 

[oliomio]

No video, yet. I am heavily into my next engine, a Bolton No 12, which is substantially bigger (2" bore, 4" stroke, beam engine), also from EJ Winter. It should be finished in a couple of months. Looks magnificent, but is BIG. 14" flywheel. Not sure that it will permitted by SWMBO to live at home.
Your question has me thinking about a video. I will probably do one, but might not be until I have finished the No 12,
Keep trying Kelly Mayberry. He is pretty good about returning calls if you leave a message. He is a one man business, and is often out at shows and dealing with his casting suppliers etc.
About the value.. I was at a swap meet in Ballarat Vic yesterday, and I spotted a few older model steam engines, all needing repairs. The cheapest one was just under $a1000 and it was very ordinary. They ranged up to $a2500 for one with a boiler, which needed extensive repairs. Sounds good value to make your own, until you factor in your time. The Bolton No 7 probably involves 200 hours of machining. The no 12 is more like 400 hrs. Still you would not make your own if you did not not enjoy the machining.
Keep me posted.

 

[Ca-g]

Thanks, I will contact Kelly.

I found a video of a Bolton 12 running, a substantial machine. What sort of horse power would a 2" bore develop..?

 

[oliomio]

Not much HP I suspect. There is an original Boulton and Watt beam engine in the Powerhouse Museum. from memory it has a 2 foot bore and 4 or 6 foot stroke. It really is huge, and is the oldest rotative working steam engine in the world (1785). If you have not seen it, it is absolutely worth a visit. I go and look every time I am in Sydney. It develops only 35hp.

 

[Ca-g]

Olio,

I live close to it and go there regularly; last time I had the fortune to fall in with one of the toolmakers who run and maintain the steam exhibits. He described it as a dream job. The wonderful Boulton and Watt always amazes me, but the truly amazing thing about it is when the museum purchased it. It powered a Whitbread Brewery in the UK for 105 years, and just as it was being taken out of service a Museum employee happened to be there and pegged it for the museum. This in 1890. Such foresight.

The lack of horsepower is down to its point in the steam age. Watt apparently (this from the powerhouse guy) believed in low pressure steam, it was yet to be realised high pressure steam was the only way to produce large horsepower and boilers were more inclined to explode under high pressure. The B&W is technically a vacuum engine, I don't quite understand this but I think the space under the piston is connected to a condenser and the steam condensing sucks the piston down.

The museum guy said he thought doing the engineering on a modellers scale was more difficult than the real thing.

 

[oliomio]

I might bump into you there, while we are paying our respects to B & W.!!
I am sure it is not an atmospheric engine though. It operates on positive steam pressure. I gather that it has been modified in the 100 or so years of its industrial use, and it was changed from single acting to double acting (piston is pushed in both directions). The condensor is so the used steam is converted back to water for re-use.
jv[email protected] John Viggers

 

[Maxjon]

I am thinking of buying a Bolton No 7 kit from EJ Winter. Although it seems to have been around for a long time I can find very few references to people making them. It is quite expensive ($400) so I am wondering if anyone here has assembled one? Are they good? How hard is it? Does it need any particularly special equipment? I have a Taig mill, small Sieg lathe, and a Hercus C ( locally made South Bend 9" copy).

Part of the attraction is it is a local kit, made only about 100kms away from Sydney where I live. Also, it is not tiny, sometimes I wonder if I should just make a full size one! Just kidding...

Yeah I ordered the Stuart S50 from the UK, It was over 400 AUD, posted, then I discovered EJ Winter/Bolton....!!!

 

[jcreasey]

The No.2 Mill engine is also very nice. It looks quite ugly on their website but mine turned out very nice.

 

[Maxjon]

The No.2 Mill engine is also very nice. It looks quite ugly on their website but mine turned out very nice.
View attachment 158752

Damn! Missed another good Australian engine! I hope the Stuart S50 was worth the $400 AUD!

 

[Jasonb]

Or just scratch build them and don't bother with castings. This one is close to the Bolton No16 high speed vertical.

 

[GreenTwin]

Or make your own castings......
Many options available......

.

 

[Richard Hed]

I got Stuarts a few years ago when the price was reasonable and the SHIPPING was reasonable, However, now, (and I wonders how much 'Brexit' had to do with it), the shipping is prohibitive. I'm looking to more 'local' now, but the USA doesn't have many suppliers. Even tho' there are a great many hobbiests in the US, there aren't enought to make it feasible for them to make enought to stay in business.

If only I were independently wealthy, or if I could win the lotto, I could make up thousands of wanted kits--even if I had to store them for many years. That's one of the probs with hobby--We each need the kits at such a slow pace that a foundary just isn't justified in making the kits. It's really too bad that hobbyists can't demand enough (economics term there) that a foundary could reach that point of 'economy of scale'--another economics term. Hmmm.

 

[GreenTwin]

I am told that there are Amish foundries that will do low quantity runs of castings.
That is probably who I would use if I ever go into the casting kit business.

.

 

[Richard Hed]

I am told that there are Amish foundries that will do low quantity runs of castings.
That is probably who I would use if I ever go into the casting kit business.

.

No Amish here, but Hutterites and another like them. If I come across one, I'll try to remember toask if they do such things.

 

[Jasonb]

In the case of kits it is not usually the foundries that supply them. Kit manufacturers have them cast by foundries who do other commerical work so they are not just producing small batches of model kits. Often the problem is finding a foundry who want to deal with the smaller batches or if they will then the small supplier usually gets theirt stuff cast when there is space/time so no regular schedule.

Though some of us do make at a faster rate than others, I find casting kits can almost go too quickly and if you work it out at cost against number of workshop hours it can become expensive. Making from scratch or making patterns adds to the hours so you get a better return on time per model.

Cost has always been high to get kits from the US back to the UK. I've paid as much as the kit in the past as flat rate boxes only apply to within the US. Stuart prices are high anyway if you compare similar sized engines from other UK suppliers and it is not simply the cost of barstock and fixings wich the Stuart kits contain that accounts for the costs.

 

[Maxjon]

In the case of kits it is not usually the foundries that supply them. Kit manufacturers have them cast by foundries who do other commerical work so they are not just producing small batches of model kits. Often the problem is finding a foundry who want to deal with the smaller batches or if they will then the small supplier usually gets theirt stuff cast when there is space/time so no regular schedule.

Though some of us do make at a faster rate than others, I find casting kits can almost go too quickly and if you work it out at cost against number of workshop hours it can become expensive. Making from scratch or making patterns adds to the hours so you get a better return on time per model.

Cost has always been high to get kits from the US back to the UK. I've paid as much as the kit in the past as flat rate boxes only apply to within the US. Stuart prices are high anyway if you compare similar sized engines from other UK suppliers and it is not simply the cost of barstock and fixings wich the Stuart kits contain that accounts for the costs.

Yes for the price, I'm expecting premium quality from Stuart