Has anyone built the Black Widow engine from castings?
Black Widow
- Thread starter Cessnadriver
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The castings are amazing the drawings, well they need help.
Has anyone built the Challenger engine??
From what I have been digging up so far the Black Widow is almost a clone of the Challenger.
Looking for distributer details, pushrod details, lifter details.
Has anyone built the Challenger engine??
From what I have been digging up so far the Black Widow is almost a clone of the Challenger.
Looking for distributer details, pushrod details, lifter details.
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The Challenger V8 engine is a flat head design similar to a Cadillac V8 of the early 50's. The castings were originally sold by Coles Power Models. I don’t know the specs of the Black Widow but it's an overhead valve V8. The basic dimensions might have been derived from the Challenger but I don't know.
Dwight Giles, one of the two designers of the Black Widow has built quite a few of them. You could call him if you have questions. 707 648-1431. He lives in Northern California.
I have one of the first sets of casting I got from Ken eons ago..... also some of the drawings. Aquired more from another source..... going thru them now with Gary Martin who now offers the castings.....
It is a soon to be done project after a few others get finished..... time to be done with all of them. Just finished a red wing air cooled... runs really good.
Pamela
It is a soon to be done project after a few others get finished..... time to be done with all of them. Just finished a red wing air cooled... runs really good.
Pamela
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Pamela
I would love to know if you actually have the complete drawings?
I spoke with both Mr Remus and Mr Giles and they are still searching to see if they can find the original drawings.
The gentleman they hired to do the CAD did them with a lot of errors. I can tell you before you machine the heads using the drawings, the combustion chambers do not line up with the bores. That is about as far I have gotten with redrawing everything as I have just been touching them here and there. Missing information on the lifters and distributor drive, pushrods etc.
Maybe you have those drawings?
Mark
Was told that it was basically copied from the challenger..... currently looking for a casting set and/or prints. Everything will be gone thru with a fine toothed comb... will probably contact Dwight at some point... haven't heard from him in way to long.
Ive figured out the cam/distributor gears and ordered a pair... 45 degree helical... to run perpendicular of each other... pitch diameter fits perefectly in the space provided... i keep poking at it as other stuff progresses... id like to get in touch with Dwight Giles tho...pick his brain directly.
You are making more progress than myself as I haven’t touched the drawings for a while now. Typical on how some of these projects go.
Not sure if you read any of the previous threads but I did draw up the block and heads and just doing assemblies in Fusion I noticed the combustion chambers are not in line with the bores. Since the bores are already started on the casting I am going to change the chambers to match on the heads.
I did talk with Dwight but at 90 years old he was having some difficulty remembering details. I also spoke with Mike Remus who is currently looking for the original drawings. So far no luck on those.
Just glad to know that someone else is working through a build. I would love to get a running engine at some point.
Any information you can share would be greatly appreciated.
Mark
Not sure if you read any of the previous threads but I did draw up the block and heads and just doing assemblies in Fusion I noticed the combustion chambers are not in line with the bores. Since the bores are already started on the casting I am going to change the chambers to match on the heads.
I did talk with Dwight but at 90 years old he was having some difficulty remembering details. I also spoke with Mike Remus who is currently looking for the original drawings. So far no luck on those.
Just glad to know that someone else is working through a build. I would love to get a running engine at some point.
Any information you can share would be greatly appreciated.
Mark
I got the castings and a bunch of drawings from Ken eons ago.... and then a bunch of other ones from Paul knapp.... geting other projects finished... but still poke at this as i think about stuff.
This is a Peewee V4 situation right here. When I tried to build it I had the same problems with missing information. If you ever want to finish this engine you need to sit down and design what's missing. Make the changes so the errors are fixed. Then move forward and build it. If you are waiting on others to do those things you may never get a solution. Someone needs to take the bull by the horns and model this thing, fill in the blanks, and produce a working set of drawings. I've done it 3 times for the Peewee, Pacifier, and Little Demon. If you want something cool you have to work for it. I don't have the drawings so I can't help but if I did, I would.
Steve
What is your email? I will scan them when I get home and send them to you. They are useless right now so I doubt Martin who sells the castings will have any objection to someone fixing all the errors and actually producing a set of working drawings.
Im working on it...just other project are in front of it. So not really a priority right now.
Unfortunately that's not enough. Someone with the castings in hand will need to do the work. While the models are being created they need to be checked against the casting to be sure that part can come from that casting.
So even if I did do the models I would have no idea if it would work with the castings provided. Has to be someone who has everything in front of them.
Steve
How long would you need everything?
My only hesitation is if something happens to you I’m out $2k worth of castings.
I can work through the issues at hand but it’s something that’s on the back burner as life, work, and family are always throwing road blocks.
How long would you need everything?
My only hesitation is if something happens to you I’m out $2k worth of castings.
I can work through the issues at hand but it’s something that’s on the back burner as life, work, and family are always throwing road blocks.
Same here. I took my peewee apart months ago and have not had the chance to get back to it. I have things stacking up and have no idea if or when I could do it. Better to have someone who has one to finish work on it. Need someone highly motivated to see it done.
Well in all honesty I truly believe the responsibility relies on the entity who sells the castings. You can’t truly back something that costs a fair amount of money and not have it complete to where it can be finished.
Agreed! But I'm sure the new owner thought the drawings were good. Remember he's in the same boat as you.
Here is how the Black Widow came about (or as much as I think I know about it):
Many years ago, a Bay Area Engine Modelers Club member took a Challenger and built a set of overhead valve heads and supercharger patterns. Knowing him, I seriously doubt he had a set of decent drawings. He owned a sort of defunct foundry and cast a few sets of parts. He was not much of a machinist so Ken Hurst and Dwight Giles took sets of castings and built the first two Black Widows. One of these you may have seen in Model Engine Builder magazine or here on this site.
The owner of the foundry died leaving Ken and Dwight with some drawings and a set of patterns. In a fit of some sort, they decided to have the engine castings done by a pro shop. So 10 good casting sets came out of that. These sold fairly rapidly and another 10 were cast.
Somewhere in this timeframe, one person bought 10 sets to have built and given to friends. Unfortunately, he chose a poorly performing machine shop to do the work. Poorly. He decided to hire a teacher of Solidworks to do a professional set of drawings. They were (and are) terrible with many files of the same component but with no way to tell what each version represented. After the teacher died, the owner of the ten casting sets sent me the mass of drawings. Although I have Solidworks I only use it to convert files for the CAD program I use.) I could not figure them out and have misplaced the drawing file package. I am still looking for it amongst the old disk drives I've used over the years.
Ken and Dwight, being professional machinists and long-term model builders, had no trouble figuring out how to build the undocumented bits of the engines. Ken, who died years ago, did not do drawings and Dwight sometimes made pencil and paper sketches before he built parts (sometimes).
I hope to still find the drawing files but since I am in the middle of a house move, it will take some time to search probably 30-40 disk drives or I may be able to find the USB drive that was sent to me.
Many years ago, a Bay Area Engine Modelers Club member took a Challenger and built a set of overhead valve heads and supercharger patterns. Knowing him, I seriously doubt he had a set of decent drawings. He owned a sort of defunct foundry and cast a few sets of parts. He was not much of a machinist so Ken Hurst and Dwight Giles took sets of castings and built the first two Black Widows. One of these you may have seen in Model Engine Builder magazine or here on this site.
The owner of the foundry died leaving Ken and Dwight with some drawings and a set of patterns. In a fit of some sort, they decided to have the engine castings done by a pro shop. So 10 good casting sets came out of that. These sold fairly rapidly and another 10 were cast.
Somewhere in this timeframe, one person bought 10 sets to have built and given to friends. Unfortunately, he chose a poorly performing machine shop to do the work. Poorly. He decided to hire a teacher of Solidworks to do a professional set of drawings. They were (and are) terrible with many files of the same component but with no way to tell what each version represented. After the teacher died, the owner of the ten casting sets sent me the mass of drawings. Although I have Solidworks I only use it to convert files for the CAD program I use.) I could not figure them out and have misplaced the drawing file package. I am still looking for it amongst the old disk drives I've used over the years.
Ken and Dwight, being professional machinists and long-term model builders, had no trouble figuring out how to build the undocumented bits of the engines. Ken, who died years ago, did not do drawings and Dwight sometimes made pencil and paper sketches before he built parts (sometimes).
I hope to still find the drawing files but since I am in the middle of a house move, it will take some time to search probably 30-40 disk drives or I may be able to find the USB drive that was sent to me.
