Brazing alloys for copper boilers

[Dan Rowe]

Kozo recommends BAg-1 for all copper boiler work. He states that the ASME code specifies copper joints can be silver soldered for service 205 Deg. C (400 Deg. F) or lower.

I have also recommended the AMBSC code as have several others. This code lists 6 silver solders that are allowed by the code. The names of the alloys are all AS or Australian Standard. I searched the web and I did not find much information. The piece of the AS code needed is listed AS-1167.1-1993. I googled that and for a few dollars I downloaded the required section. Page 6 of this document gives the alloy specs. Page 10 of the document lists the AS alloy and the equivalent alloy for BS-British Standard, AWS- American Standard, DIN- German Standard, and ISO 3677-1976. Some of the AS alloys do not have an equivalent listed for other standards.

To summarize all this the alloy recommended by Kozo BAg-1 is the same as one of the AS alloys required by the AMBSC.

I downloaded the AS code from Sai Global last year now they have a log in page with a trial period so maybe that would work for folks that need more information. http://www.saiglobal.com/online/

There is a good wiki link found by Stan on brazing alloys but it is missing a lot of country standard information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazing#Brazing_alloys

Dan

 

[Lakc]

Ok, trying to put some numbers behind all the codes here, this site lists the composition of BAg-1 where SRA unfortunately didnt, and the wiki didnt include them in the sort order.

http://www.engineersedge.com/solder_joint_design/brazing_materials.htm

Reading that shows BAg-1 has 16% zinc, so I would guess a certain amount of zinc is allowed in the braze. Which raises the questions of what approved brazes contain the highest amount of zinc, and if there are any approved cadmium free solders? Which approved higher temp solders can be used when operations require subsequent reheating?

What would be extremely helpful , is if we could pool this boards experience, and access to the standards, and make a list of approved alloys to sticky.

 

[Dan Rowe]

Jeff,
The content of As 1167.1-1993 is all copyright material. The information needed for this thread is about 1% or less of the total of that section of the code.

If we can have a moderator ruling about allowing a small sample of the document coped here I would gladly modify the first post to include the information.

The issue is simple in Australia the alloys are all color marked and the AMBSC states which colors to use. You just go down to the welding supply and get the right color silver solder.

This is the one weak point of using the AMBSC in other locations. I have pointed out the location of the needed code so that is a working solution. As has been pointed out the AMBSC is only a legal document for Australia and New Zealand.

I will wait for one of the moderators to address this issue.

Dan

 

[shred]

Ok, trying to put some numbers behind all the codes here, this site lists the composition of BAg-1 where SRA unfortunately didnt, and the wiki didnt include them in the sort order.

FWIW, the SRA-solder.com site ( http://www.sra-solder.com/brazing_wire.htm ) shows the composition and melting ranges but you can't buy them there, while the purchase part of the SRA site doesn't, but you can ( http://store.sra-solder.com/section.php/89/1 ) ???

 

[Stan]

Dan: I would think that every country must have a standard that shows the alloy of any metal, including brazing alloys. If you know what alloy you want to use, it should be possible to work backwards through the published list to find the local brand names or standard name/number, as you have done.

I don't think there is any copyright problem if you post that Kozo recommends xxx ASME silver solder which is the equivalent of yyy in Australia and even zzz in Germany, if you have that information. In other words, it would be great if someone has the resources and time to make a chart of comparable names in different countries.

 

[Maryak]

Jeff,
The content of As 1167.1-1993 is all copyright material. The information needed for this thread is about 1% or less of the total of that section of the code.

If we can have a moderator ruling about allowing a small sample of the document coped here I would gladly modify the first post to include the information.

Dan

Dan,

1st up thanks for trying to help with a solution to the varying nomenclature for the same spec from different parts of the globe.

It's also great that you are aware of copyright issues and this forums very strong stance on not infringing copyright.

If memory serves me correctly our copyright goes along the lines of - "No part of this document may be reproduced copied etc. by any means etc without written permission of the owner."

This being the case even a 0.1% copy to this forum would, I believe, constitute an infringement of this copyright so please do not post it to our forum.

Thank you all for your understanding.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[GWRdriver]

Re Zinc . . . it has always been my understanding that like the cadmium content, the zinc content in silver solder evaporates during soldering leaving only silver and copper. However in checking alloy specs on several popular solders I find zinc contents ranging between 17% and 30% and that's a lot of material to have just disappear.

 

[cidrontmg]

Quote: "without written permission of the owner"
Might it be possible to get such a permission? Very many, if not most, copyright holders gladly give such a permission, if the publication of such work is absolutely non-profit, and for educational purposes. And just excerpts of the work, not all of it.
All these conditions, IMHO, would apply here.

 

[Lakc]

Dan,

I appreciate all your effort's, and understand the desire to maintain copyright privileges.

While I don't believe we need to reproduce any part of the codes to generate our own list of approved alloy contents, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn express last night, so I will defer to whatever the moderator decision may be in this case.

There is just such a vast expanse of products calling themselves "silver solder", that I feel we should ballpark the acceptable alloy's metallurgical content so that despite any localization or brand name issues, we can all build safe boilers with comparable solder's.

 

[SAM in LA]

If the information is online, just provide a description and the link to the web page.

SAM

 

[Stan]

I agree with Lacc. The publisher of the AS1161 didn't invent the alloy or publish the original formula details. They copied it from other published material, probably from Government standards or manufacturers catalogs. I see nothing wrong with using their alloy data along with data from other sources to compile a new chart specifically for our model use.

 

[Dan Rowe]

Bob,
I was reasonably sure that your interpretation of the Australian Copyright Law would be the case, but it does not hurt to ask. Thank you for the clarification.

As for the small sections I paraphrased from Kozo Hiraoka's book "The New Shay", I am also not a lawyer but I believe that US Copyright Law allows that under fair use. If the site administrators or moderators disagree with that please modify the post or let me know and I will modify the post.

If I could find the information on the web I would link it to the forum. I can not find it even with the information, that fact only reinforces Bob's interpretation of the Australian Copyright Law.

Stan,
AS-1167.1 is an Australian Government Standard (AS=Australian Standard) and it is owned by the government. The copyright notice is included with the licence information which is even more restrictive as to use. Also the AMBSC is copyright material and the copyright notice on that document states that I can not lend or sell the publication.

I am thankfull for the fact that the AMBSC information is available for a reasonable amount and the AS code section you need is also available and you do not have to pay for sections not needed.

The ASME code is cost prohibitive for a small business or personal use.

Dan

 

[xo18thfa]

The recommendation to use "BAg-1" appears in the new Shay book. In the other books (I don't have the A4 book) he recommends:

Silver 45%
Copper 15%
Zinc 16%
Cadmium 24%

For those who don't want to use cadmium, he recommends:

Silver 56%
Copper 22%
Zinc 17%
Tin 5%

I use the cadmium flavor. Bottom line -- does that stuff work?

 

[Blogwitch]

I have to agree with Lakc on this topic.

It seems that everyone in the more rural countries needs to get involved with numbers and formulae, whereas in our little country bumpkin nation, we tend to just call it by a tradename and get on with it.

If you draw a circle of one mile around where I live, you could most probably find at least half a dozen 'model engineers', maybe a lot more, from all walks of life.

If you went up to most of them and asked what they used for 'silver soldering' or what most of you call silver braze, they would most probably reply with one of two words, easyflo or silverflo, and if they wanted to repair a silver soldered boiler without too much damage to the parent joints, a hi melt soft solder like Comsol.

So for 99% of the jobs we do in our little shops requiring a silver soldered joint, we only have to remember 3 little words, and when and where they are used, say if you are stage soldering, you just have to ask for the correct temp range, but most times even that is not needed.

Contact any silver solder supplier on our little island, and ask for one of those, you will get either exactly what you asked for, or an equivalent manufacturers product, no ifs, buts or arguments.

The same goes for the fluxes we use as well, three or four covers the whole range.

For a new person entering into this side of our hobby, he would disappear after reading the first few posts in this topic, as he would be totally confused.

If I could make a suggestion, get a few of the better known 'trade names', like we have done, but from your part of the world, and list them in an easy to understand manner.

Forget about using the one upmanship of being able to remember and quote numbers and formulae, rules and government regs, and make it simple for everyone to understand.

Just a suggestion from a little island who seems to have the problem under control.

I do have a question, just who is this Kozo chappie, and where does he fit in the grand scheme of things?

I do hope he isn't being hailed as the new 'messiah of silver soldering', as for sure, no one is perfect or infallable, no matter how good they are, or seem to be.


Bogs

 

[steamer]

Hi John,

Yup....Safetysilv 45, and Silphos among others, is a "brand" name here in the States by Harris and Lennox.....

Here's a link to a bio on Kozo....brilliant man and someone you would like I am sure John. He has a gift for breaking it down and making it all easy to understand. His engineering and drawings are impeccable.


<http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Hiraoka.htm>

Dave



ON EDIT,

It has come to my attention that Silphos is not allowed under the Austrailian Boiler code, Therefor I would like to call attention to that fact and recommend not using Silphos or phosphorous bearing brazing spelter when constructing a boiler under copper boiler work AMBSC P2 2.3.2.2.

 

[Blogwitch]

Dave,

Thanks for that, I remember him now, and followed his work a few years ago, but since he concentrates more on locos, which although I do enjoy, I don't follow religiously, I lapsed from searching him out.

As you say, a man after my own heart, trying to make things simply understood, so that anyone can follow along.


Thanks again.


John

 

[steamer]

Bump,

Please check my last post for an important edit....Don't use Silphos on boilers.

Dave

 

[Dan Rowe]

I have to agree with Lakc on this topic.

What would be extremely helpful , is if we could pool this boards experience, and access to the standards, and make a list of approved alloys to sticky.

There is just such a vast expanse of products calling themselves "silver solder", that I feel we should ballpark the acceptable alloy's metallurgical content so that despite any localization or brand name issues, we can all build safe boilers with comparable solder's.

These points made by Lakc are both very important issues in North America.

It seems that everyone in the more rural countries needs to get involved with numbers and formulae, whereas in our little country bumpkin nation, we tend to just call it by a tradename and get on with it.

That would be nice in an ideal world, but trade names and rules for their use are a complex global legal tangle.

If you draw a circle of one mile around where I live, you could most probably find at least half a dozen 'model engineers', maybe a lot more, from all walks of life.

If I draw a 1 mile circle around my place there might be just over half a dozen humans and one model engineer.

If you went up to most of them and asked what they used for 'silver soldering' or what most of you call silver braze, they would most probably reply with one of two words, easyflo or silverflo, and if they wanted to repair a silver soldered boiler without too much damage to the parent joints, a hi melt soft solder like Comsol.

I would get a random set of answers, as the term silver solder is used here for anything with even 1% silver and possibly any silver colored alloy.

So for 99% of the jobs we do in our little shops requiring a silver soldered joint, we only have to remember 3 little words, and when and where they are used, say if you are stage soldering, you just have to ask for the correct temp range, but most times even that is not needed.

I did a web search for the three words and the first hit was:
http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/applications-pages2.asp?pageid=5&id=96
Easy-flo No2 Ag 42, Cu 17, Zn 16, Cd 25, Melt 608-617 Deg. C,
Silver-flo 55 Ag 55, Cu 21, Zn 22, Sn 2, Melt 630-660 Deg C
Silver-flo 24 Ag 24, Cu 43, Zn 33 Melt 740-800 Deg. C
Comsol Ag 1.5, Sn 5, Pb 93.5 Melt 296 Deg. C

For those not in the UK or OZ the situation is not as simple. In North America the way to get what is required is to use the AWS or American Welding Society classification such as BAg-1. It seems to me that is just as simple as easy-flo.

Contact any silver solder supplier on our little island, and ask for one of those, you will get either exactly what you asked for, or an equivalent manufacturers product, no ifs, buts or arguments.

Point well taken. At the cost of silver solder the postage rate might be a minor factor in the cost.

The same goes for the fluxes we use as well, three or four covers the whole range.

http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/products-pages.asp?pageid=63&sectionid=3

For a new person entering into this side of our hobby, he would disappear after reading the first few posts in this topic, as he would be totally confused.

Sorry for the perceived confusion. All of us are not quite as gifted in the gentlemans' sport of prose. I for one am much more comfortable on steel deckplate with steel toe boots.

If I could make a suggestion, get a few of the better known 'trade names', like we have done, but from your part of the world, and list them in an easy to understand manner.

Good suggestion. I will modified the first post with quotes from your message as to UK trade names and added alloy content information.

Forget about using the one upmanship of being able to remember and quote numbers and formulae, rules and government regs, and make it simple for everyone to understand.

I am in TOTAL disagreement with this statement. To say that the folks who have spent their time trying to clarify the issue are doing it for "one upmanship" is uncalled for and does not impart any useful information to the thread. Only a fool would memorize government regulations as they are way too complex to commit to memory which is why they are written down. I still have a lot of Sulzer standard practice in my head but I would never trust my memory and even when I was a practicing engineer I would look up any required spec. to make certain the job was done in a proper and professional manner.

Just a suggestion from a little island who seems to have the problem under control.

Thank you for your input as your tiny island seems to have it under control perhaps you could answer the guestion I asked on the Model boiler information thread. This question was asked by me and not answered: "So to get to the point, can some UK member verify that the formulas in Harris can be used for current UK model pressure vessel calculations?"
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8881.0

Dan

 

[Dan Rowe]

The recommendation to use "BAg-1" appears in the new Shay book. In the other books (I don't have the A4 book) he recommends:

Silver 45%
Copper 15%
Zinc 16%
Cadmium 24%

Bob BAg-1 is the allloy you listed. I checked both Shay books and not the other geared ones. I do not have the A4 book either.

For those who don't want to use cadmium, he recommends:

Silver 56%
Copper 22%
Zinc 17%
Tin 5%

The AWS classification for that alloy is BAg-7.

I will be tending to the first post soon to include the alloys.

Dan

 

[Blogwitch]

Mr Rowe,

After receiving some information as to how you conduct yourself on other sites, I refuse to be further drawn into any argument or discussion with you, and my posting remains as I wrote it, with definitely no modifications required. Especially this one.

Forget about using the one upmanship of being able to remember and quote numbers and formulae, rules and government regs, and make it simple for everyone to understand.

All I will say, your huff, puff and bluff doesn't cut it with me now, and that you should look to what your intended audience requires, not what YOU want to give it.


Bogs