Tooling quality

[Gordon]

I notice some folks saying that they will not buy anything but high end tooling and high end machines but for many of us the difference between enjoying the hobby and not being able to afford it. It may be nice to buy $20 taps instead of being careful with the $5 tap but can it be justified? For some things the expensive one is actually made by the same company as the cheaper model. For instance take a look at the 5C spin indexer. They can be found listed for anything from $29 to $89 and they sure look like they are identical and made by the same company. For some things like telescoping gauges I find it hard to believe that the $150 set is that much superior to the $29 set. We are using them on an occasional basis, not 8 hours per day 7 days a week.

For me I could probably afford to get the expensive one if I really thought that it was important but I would have a problem justifying that for something that is just a hobby. Back when I owned a fabricating shop I could justify paying $150 for a drill motor because it was being used for hours on end but now the $39 drill motor is used to drill two holes every other month and if I drilled 20 holes in a row it would overheat but I am not doing that. If I actually had to drill 20 holes I could drill 10 and go get a cup of coffee and come back to drill the other 10.

In many cases it is possible to compensate for less than perfect equipment. If something is .005 oversize it may be possible to make the mating piece .005 oversize. In reading the build descriptions by some of the old timers you find them putting a shim on the lathe chuck jaws to compensate for less than perfect equipment. If you look at some of Rudy K project logs you see him using machines which he salvaged from the scrap heap and rebuilding and making them work for his purpose.

We all make choices and set priorities and I realize that other make different choices and that is perfectly alright. YMMV

 

[Blogwitch]

Gordon,

I started collecting tools when doing my apprenticeship 50 years ago.

I couldn't afford new, so second hand or donated tools were used, they kept me within my 2 thou tolerance band.
In those days, far eastern tooling just wasn't available, just home grown equipment.

Over the years, I saved my pennies and started to buy these UK made tools, and they lasted me well.

Around 20 years ago, I started to buy the cheaper far eastern offerings, and in about 50% of the cases I found them lacking in quality, but plenty good enough for the budding tyro. By this time I was working to finer tolerances and the far eastern companies had got their act together with regards to quality

Now to cut a long story short, about 95% of everything in my shop, is far eastern, and if needed I could work to very small tolerances.

I can, if I wanted to, buy all the big brand names, but why should I when the quality is now there at half the price or less.

A good example are digital calipers, no matter how much you pay for them, they are still just a precision monkey wrench. So the choice is £150+ or a £10 cheapo. To my way of thinking, OK the expensive one will last a lot longer but it too will eventually wear out, whereas the cheapo can be replaced each year, and if still working, can be converted into something else about the shop.

Now, if I am just after machine tooling, cutters etc, I use AliExpress or Bang Good to get them from. Perfectly good CCMT060204 tips for less than £4 for 10, or over £20 to buy exactly the same thing from suppliers in this country. These are the sorts of bits you can get at very good prices.

John

 

[Dr Jo]

So 30 years ago I brought a second hand milling machine that came out of a school. It is still going strong I have never had any problems and about 5 years ago I treated it to a DRO and it is now even better. I expect it to out last me.

My friend is a " regular" investor in Chinese machine tools. His latest milling machine is being replaced as it is worn after 8 year use in a home workshop (I don't recall seeing him making much). He is a believer that the Chinese stuff is better made now. Time will tell.

I also know of people who buy expensive German made hobby machines who have had no end of problems, especially with the equally expensive electrics.

It really comes down to: Hobby machine/tooling is made to a price, industrial stuff has to cut the mustard. Thanks to the cheap Chinese stuff the second hand industrial machines are now very reasonably priced - you just have to find a good one :thumbup:

Jo

P.S. I paid less for my mill than he is paying for each of his repeated purchases

 

[Gordon]

One advantage that the hobby shop has that the industrial user does not have is time which is free for the hobby shop. For instance I bought my 13" South Bend lathe used for $600 and it had come out of a school where the instructor apparently had someone repaint the lathe every time he ran out of things for them to do. I spent a lot of time chipping paint and cleaning it up but did not spend much more than the original price. I bought a used Excello mill for $600 because the table would not go up and down. It took a lot of work to get down to the $25 bearing which let the table go up and down. If my shop time had still been worth what I was charging when I owned a business it would have been cheaper to buy new. For some folks who are still working the situation may be different because they cannot spend many hours repairing used machines. They just want to get on with their hobby.

 

[Blogwitch]

Regarding machine tools. It is OK saying go with old industrial machines, BUT !!!

By going with far eastern, I got exactly what I wanted rather than having to take what I could get, which, for the same price would most probably a knackered out home grown machine that requires a lot of work and wouldn't fit into my workshop, plus if things do go wrong, and they definitely do, try getting spares at a reasonable price.
I have seen five year old Bridgeports and J&S grinders being up ended into skips when they were removed from a workshop because they were too costly to refurbish.

Mind you, I did have a massive breakdown on my mill after about a year, a £2+ bearing replaced in about 10 minutes. I personally can stand the costs of those types of repairs.

I posted about this a couple of years ago,

http://chestermachinetools.forumchi...ent-bearing-on-my-mill-7284360?pid=1286084533


John

 

[Jasonb]

Well I'm quite happy with my far easter tooling and machines.

Infact my mill is also 9 years old now and still going strong, has done a lot of work quite often on large engines that push it to its limits and all I have had to replace is a couple of worn toothed belts at about £5 a time.

The lathe is 7-8 years old, needed one speed control pot and a set of brushes, I also changed the spindle bearings probably less than £50 total outlay. Yet some of the industry machines of a similar size will cost 2-3 times that for a replacement set of bed wipers!

Most of the sub 12" lathes will also plug straight into a standard wall socket, ex industry will more than likely need 3-phase. I know someone who probably spent close on £1000 for their rotary inverter, switch gear, sockets, wiring etc. You could by a whole far eastern machine for that.

I also feel that equipment for model engineering is much like any other hobby, there are those who feel they must have the name brand, best model, top spec items yet in most cases this will not make them any better at their chosen hobby. There is also a percieved need for accurate machines that is often far beyond what is really needed. Why have a machine that can bore a hole to 0.0001" accuracy when you will likely have a job measuring the hole to better than 0.001". And even then it is better for us to make a part that fits the next rather than a pile of components to drawing that when assembled are tight or bind.

As they say it is not what you have got it is what you do with it that matters. I can make models that will run OK and use that as a bench mark to judge if they have been build well and accurately. Some with far better spec machines and equipment seem to have difficulty in doing the same.

The far eastern machines and equipment have also opened up the hobby to far more people particularly the small bench top mills, without these a lot of us would still be muddling along with vertical slides and if the results were not as desired may move onto another hobby.

J

 

[Cogsy]

I'll stay out of the machine debate as I only have experience with my Chinese stuff so I have nothing to compare it with.

As for smaller tools, my main tap and die kit is one I purchased from an auto store about 5 years ago. I believe it's for chasing and cleaning threads rather than cutting them, but it's all I had for a while so it had to do the job. I now have a couple of brand name taps (only 2 or 3)and while I admit they do cut easier, the cheapies are still (mostly) performing and I have never broken a single tap (eek, where's some wood to knock on!). I also have a small 'watchmakers' tap and die set, with the largest size being 4-40 and the smallest 00-90. This set was again a very cheap set (under $50) and has worked perfectly. I have tapped and externally threaded drill rod down to 0-80 with no problems at all. If it wasn't for the Chinese stuff there is no way I could continue in this hobby and I'm dreading the day their prices begin to match the value they are giving us as I likely won't be able to afford it.

 

[BaronJ]

Talking about tap & die kit, I bought an American Bluepoint one about 20 years ago, so far I've yet to wear any of out or break a tap. Though I must admit that it gets less use now metric threads have become much more popular.

 

[Dr Jo]

Well I'm quite happy with my far easter tooling and machines.

......

The lathe is 7-8 years old, needed one speed control pot and a set of brushes, I also changed the spindle bearings probably less than £50 total outlay. Yet some of the industry machines of a similar size will cost 2-3 times that for a replacement set of bed wipers!
.........

Would you like to mention about the original lathe chucks as well?

Yes a set of original bed wipers from Hardinge for my Hardinge HLV-H will cost twice the cost of those bearings, my Colchester ones are expensive at £5 a set. To put the quality of those bearings into perspective a set of front angular contact bearing race replacement for my 3MT Lunzer live centre are just over £350, the Gamet Micron Precision Taper Roller Bearings for the Colchester headstock are some what more expensive again.

Jo