Suggestions for small mill/jig borer?

[river1024]

Hi! I'm 23, and work as a watchmaker (watch repair) professionally in Texas. Though my main two interests have been making a watch movement, and more recently, model engines.
I've got a good watchmakers lathe that should be perfectly capable of small parts (got the milling attachment), and I have a sensitive drill press with an optical table for sequentially positioning small location holes.

Thing is, while I feel like I can do quite a bit with those + my hand tools (sawing, filing, lapping, etc.), I'm really feeling I need a mill. or jig borer w/ light milling capabilities.


I've been looking for awhile at many vintage machines. Hauser M1, Hauser W10, BCA MK3, Boley, Dixi, or even the much older style designs like the Wolf Jahn millers.
The main issue is, when I do find these machines, they are not here in the US. I managed to find two Hauser M1, two BCA MK3, and a Hauser W10. One of the M1's being in Switzerland, and all the rest being decently priced, but in London.
And then occasionally I'll see Aciera F1 and such come up, or like, the Marcel Aubert on nielsmachines, but those are just asking way above my price range (they want $20k usd). I'm kind of not surprised how long I've seen it sitting there.
Anyways I digress, the sellers don't seem to be open to freight overseas (understandably), and in addition, it's quite costly for something of that weight. versus if I was able to just drive somewhere, even a few states over.

Insight and suggestions appreciated;

- River

 

[pete]

I bought my 3/4 sized BP clone from Penn tools in New Jersey and shipped it over 3,000 miles to western Canada simply because at the time, Penn Tools were the only ones importing what I needed for size and overall weight from Taiwan. I also spent over 10 years looking for a reasonably priced South Bend 7" shaper within a few hundred miles. That never happened. I finally made up my mind that if I was ever going to get one I was going to have to change my requirements. I probably paid a couple hundred too much at the time, and it took a 15 hr round trip to get mine, but in hind sight I'm happy I finally understood what it was going to take and acted on that or I'd still be looking.

I'd say you already have about all the known and better machines on your list and I doubt I can think of any you might have missed. And as you already know, all of them would be quite rare to find in the U.S. If it were me, find a complete and excellent condition machine including collets (especially so for those BCA's) anywhere you can which is likely to be in Europe, then send multiple emails to lesser known freight companies using a Google search around the general location of that machine for both crating and shipping. DON'T even talk to the big names in the fast freight and shipping business like DHL, UPS, FedEx ect. All of them will always cost the most by a very large percentage. Who do you think pays for all there advertising for them to be well known? And get at least 1/2 a dozen freight quotes from different companies. I've seen as much as 300% more from the highest cost companies verses the lower cost. A small heavy piece of freight like this would almost for sure be put out for bid by the big freight companies and picked up by one of the more local freight companies anyway. Then those big companies take most of the profit simply for shuffling some paper work around. A bit of Google searching and some emails can easily save you some big bucks. If you want fast, easy and convenient it's going to cost a lot. Do a bit of the work yourself and you'll get a much more reasonable price.

 

[rklopp]

I suggest you reach out to user "Spud" on PracticalMachinist.com in the "Deckel, Maho, Aciera, Abene Mills" sub-forum. He knows about Hausers and similar small machines. Aside from Spud, a post on that sub-forum should get you some insights.

 

[The Ignoble Troll]

Out of curiosity, why not check out a Taig mill?

 

[Mike Henry]

You might keep an eye out for a Linley Jig Borer. They used to be popular amongst hobby metal workers but are not mentioned much anymore and are pretty rare. If you go looking, try to get one with the power downfeed and all the collets, which might have been custom-made for the machine. Prices used to be $1500-$3000 depending on location, condition, and accesories.

http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=9381&tab=3

If a vintage (small) mill is a better fit for you, Clausing sold the 8520 and 8530 vertical knee mills that are fairly easy to find and Rockwell made a slightly larger knee mill that some prefer. Both are 700-1,000 lbs and documents for either can be found on the above site. I owned an 8520 and used it happily for a number of years until it was sold to make room for a new tool. It brought a little over $3k, but was in excellent condition with a 3-in Kurt vise, DRO, power feed and full set of MT-2 collets.

https://lathes.co.uk/#gsc.tab=0 also has a lot of info on all sorts of machine tools in a format that some find easier to explore.

 

[Richard Hed]

Don't forget, Grizzly has a warehouse/shop in Missouri, not too far from Texas. Their wares are reputable and so far, not overpriced.

 

[pete]

Going by what River1024 posted, he's wanting a small and meant for the task light duty jig bore class of machine. Some of the brands he mentioned were built with a special and very high accuracy fixed rotary table as part of the table. These light jig borers get built with very rigid or fixed heads, extreme accuracy spindles, bearings and spindle tapers. Lead screws and nuts are at least an order of magnitude better than my BP clone without my dro. The machines exact alignments were hand scraped to that jig borer designation for accuracy. Some were even made with built in compensation for the machines dials and the known but very slight feed nut and screw pitch inaccuracies the factory tested for and knew by exactly how much each machine varied from true position over the full X,Y travels. There simply isn't any mill being produced today that comes even close to what one of these machines were capable of as long as one can be found that's still in decent condition. There small size does not mean less accuracy, and they were just as capable as any of the full sized jig bores.

 

[river1024]

Going by what River1024 posted, he's wanting a small and meant for the task light duty jig bore class of machine. Some of the brands he mentioned were built with a special and very high accuracy fixed rotary table as part of the table. These light jig borers get built with very rigid or fixed heads, extreme accuracy spindles, bearings and spindle tapers. Lead screws and nuts are at least an order of magnitude better than my BP clone without my dro. The machines exact alignments were hand scraped to that jig borer designation for accuracy. Some were even made with built in compensation for the machines dials and the known but very slight feed nut and screw pitch inaccuracies the factory tested for and knew by exactly how much each machine varied from true position over the full X,Y travels. There simply isn't any mill being produced today that comes even close to what one of these machines were capable of as long as one can be found that's still in decent condition. There small size does not mean less accuracy, and they were just as capable as any of the full sized jig bores.

Spot on. I’m not completely against just picking up a Taig as The Ignoble Troll suggested while I wait for something better to come up, but it’s definitely going to take a lot more care/setup/modification to do what I’m wanting. I suspect anyways.

You might keep an eye out for a Linley Jig Borer. They used to be popular amongst hobby metal workers but are not mentioned much anymore and are pretty rare. If you go looking, try to get one with the power downfeed and all the collets, which might have been custom-made for the machine. Prices used to be $1500-$3000 depending on location, condition, and accesories.

http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=9381&tab=3

If a vintage (small) mill is a better fit for you, Clausing sold the 8520 and 8530 vertical knee mills that are fairly easy to find and Rockwell made a slightly larger knee mill that some prefer. Both are 700-1,000 lbs and documents for either can be found on the above site. I owned an 8520 and used it happily for a number of years until it was sold to make room for a new tool. It brought a little over $3k, but was in excellent condition with a 3-in Kurt vise, DRO, power feed and full set of MT-2 collets.

https://lathes.co.uk/#gsc.tab=0 also has a lot of info on all sorts of machine tools in a format that some find easier to explore.

I do thank you for the suggestions, I had not looked at Clausing. It may be something to look into for the future for larger stuff. Though, while it’s still small compared to standard mills, I should add I am on the third floor of an apartment. And no garage. Anything above 500lbs is just going to be impossible. And even 500 is pushing it.

I know I’m kind of digging myself into the ground, as the options for a machine of these capabilities at the size I want is already few and far between. I guess compromises will need to be made. Whether that’s waiting a few years until I move, waiting a bit and just eating the $15k~ to get something complete and freighted, or settle for something in the realm of Taig and just make it work.

I did consider at a point it may be easier to spend a few thousand and make something myself. Possibly throwing a Hauser compound onto a granite surface plate and having a sturdy column on it with a gepy spindle. Or something from Nakanishi. But I quickly ditched it without thinking too hard for the fact I’d still probably need a mill to begin with.

 

[pete]

If it were me, I'd try widening your search area. Texas and any machine like you've listed would be just about unknown. Try California, New York and the Eastern US. Also try searching around the Toronto area. I know the odd BCA does show up around there. Yes your again dealing with long distance shipping, but my previous points about that still apply.

 

[ajoeiam]

I bought my 3/4 sized BP clone from Penn tools in New Jersey and shipped it over 3,000 miles to western Canada simply because at the time, Penn Tools were the only ones importing what I needed for size and overall weight from Taiwan. I also spent over 10 years looking for a reasonably priced South Bend 7" shaper within a few hundred miles. That never happened. I finally made up my mind that if I was ever going to get one I was going to have to change my requirements. I probably paid a couple hundred too much at the time, and it took a 15 hr round trip to get mine, but in hind sight I'm happy I finally understood what it was going to take and acted on that or I'd still be looking.

I'd say you already have about all the known and better machines on your list and I doubt I can think of any you might have missed. And as you already know, all of them would be quite rare to find in the U.S. If it were me, find a complete and excellent condition machine including collets (especially so for those BCA's) anywhere you can which is likely to be in Europe, then send multiple emails to lesser known freight companies using a Google search around the general location of that machine for both crating and shipping. DON'T even talk to the big names in the fast freight and shipping business like DHL, UPS, FedEx ect. All of them will always cost the most by a very large percentage. Who do you think pays for all there advertising for them to be well known? And get at least 1/2 a dozen freight quotes from different companies. I've seen as much as 300% more from the highest cost companies verses the lower cost. A small heavy piece of freight like this would almost for sure be put out for bid by the big freight companies and picked up by one of the more local freight companies anyway. Then those big companies take most of the profit simply for shuffling some paper work around. A bit of Google searching and some emails can easily save you some big bucks. If you want fast, easy and convenient it's going to cost a lot. Do a bit of the work yourself and you'll get a much more reasonable price.

Suggest Kuehne & Nagel
They specialize in container and ship load stuff but they are willing to talk pallet load size.
Might not be too easy but they have been willing to talk to me here (with some time to go and get item from central yard).

 

[Richard Hed]

https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-4-x-16-mini-milling-machine/g8689z

 

[The Ignoble Troll]

Sounds like you could do with two machines. Something like a Taig for milling and a boring jig for the really fiddley holes?

 

[Mike Henry]

I do thank you for the suggestions, I had not looked at Clausing. It may be something to look into for the future for larger stuff. Though, while it’s still small compared to standard mills, I should add I am on the third floor of an apartment. And no garage. Anything above 500lbs is just going to be impossible. And even 500 is pushing it.

It looks like you need something much better than a small Clausing knee mill, but should end up with one while waiting for the best tool to show up, the Clausing 8520 is pretty easy to break down unto several hundred-pound assemblies and is easy to move with a refrigerator dolly. That's probably also true for most other domestic or import mills in that size range.

The user Milacron on practicalmachinist.com seems to come across (and sell) exotic machines, like your dream jig borer, and sells at least some of them on Ebay as seller procyon and from the web site below:

https://procyonmachine.com/index.php

His machines almost always look gorgeous and have prices to match, so he might be a source only if you win the lottery. It might pay to email him and see if he knows of anything or will contact you if he finds something you want.

 

[clockworkcheval]

What you can get in practice depends very much on what is available around you. But please remember the dual lineage of mills. Probably the oldest machinetool mankind knows is the bowdriven drill. At some point in time somebody flipped this vertical contraption to the horizontal and got himself a bowdriven lathe. At some instrumentmakers colleges you still have to start with a bowdriven lathe to get a good feel of the turning process. From the lathe in the early 19th century developed the (of course) horizontal mill. Later on the horizontal mill became equipped with a knee-table, a vertical head and other nice versatilities of which the Bridgeport is probably the ultimate medium sized versatile general purpose machine. The decendants of this line of milling machines are sturdy and precise. The pillar drill on the other hand developed into a poor man's alternative as a drill/mill. Purely based on the physics of this type for milling it is a sloppy unstable not really precise contraption compared with the kneetype mill. Of course very able craftsman can work wonders with the poorest equipment. So my advice is: whatever you see, look at the lineage.

 

[pete]

Yes clocks and watches were made by hand on some pretty crude and rudimentary equipment by some highly experienced craftsmen 100's of years ago. I'd stress that word experienced since it fills in for a lot of the deficiencies and lack of precision in the equipment that was available at the time. What worked then can be just as true today. You still need that knowledge and the experience though. In general, I'd say there's a real lack of understanding about the basics of machine tool alignments by most at the more hobby level. Buying something like a small but proper jig borer level machine, then all that's already taken care of as long as it's not too highly worn. It's part of the high cost and what these machines originally sold for when they were new. I have a fairly extensive collection of older model engineer magazines, in the early 1960's one of those bare BCA's without any tooling were selling for approximately 3 times what a then new Myford Super 7 was priced at.

But even with something like a machine built to those jig borer specifications, a good craftsman would still check what they bought to find where the accuracy limits of any machine tool might be. All the experience and knowledge in the world still can't allow for compensation on any machine tool if you don't know where any inaccuracies are or how much or if any compensation might be needed once those part accuracy levels go high enough. Using that exact same method is in fact how we got to the very best and most accurate machine tools we have available today. At some point highly experienced machinists were making manual corrections to then build more accurate machines than what they were being machined and / or ground on. After that, then more knowledge and experienced were used to hand scrape them to even far higher levels of accuracy.

For almost all of us, what were buying for the smaller bench top sized machines will usually be good enough at our more hobby level, until it isn't. High accuracy work is obviously a bit different. There's hundreds if not thousands of posts on various forums mentioning lathe leveling or tramming a mill vise and head in. While obviously important, what about the rest of the machine? For example how many have ever checked just how true there mill tables Y axis is to it's X axis. Most seem to assume there perfect, they most definitely aren't unless it's by a lucky accident. Moore Tools in there book Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy very aptly illustrate that for any single machine tool slide, there's up to 6 possible directions of inaccuracy's that can be present, or even various combinations of some or all of them. A massive learning step for myself about those machine tool alignments and how to check them was finding this PDF. https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archi...s/Schlesinger_Georg/Testing_Machine_Tools.pdf I suspect a large amount in that PDF was used as the methods contained in the Connelly book Machine Tool Reconditioning. And without question it's methods have been used by every machine tool manufacturer world wide since it was first written in the 1930's and still are today. My last lathes certificate of accuracy was certainly based on those exact same Schlesinger's test methods.

I'd say the actual differences between something like an off shore mini mill and one of those Houser's, BCA's, Bolley's etc might be roughly comparable to the difference between a $200 off shore drill press and my Bridgeport clone. But with that test information, maybe some adjustments, shimming etc, plus already knowing where the limits of accuracy are. Then that extra knowledge and experience can wring a lot more out of these machines than they were ever really designed to do. I'm not suggesting that any of those light duty off shore machines will ever come close to what the OP is looking for, only that they can be much better than what comes out of the shipping crate. It's then up to the user to say if that's good enough or not.

 

[river1024]

Yes clocks and watches were made by hand on some pretty crude and rudimentary equipment by some highly experienced craftsmen 100's of years ago. I'd stress that word experienced since it fills in for a lot of the deficiencies and lack of precision in the equipment that was available at the time. What worked then can be just as true today. You still need that knowledge and the experience though. In general, I'd say there's a real lack of understanding about the basics of machine tool alignments by most at the more hobby level. Buying something like a small but proper jig borer level machine, then all that's already taken care of as long as it's not too highly worn. It's part of the high cost and what these machines originally sold for when they were new. I have a fairly extensive collection of older model engineer magazines, in the early 1960's one of those bare BCA's without any tooling were selling for approximately 3 times what a then new Myford Super 7 was priced at.

But even with something like a machine built to those jig borer specifications, a good craftsman would still check what they bought to find where the accuracy limits of any machine tool might be. All the experience and knowledge in the world still can't allow for compensation on any machine tool if you don't know where any inaccuracies are or how much or if any compensation might be needed once those part accuracy levels go high enough. Using that exact same method is in fact how we got to the very best and most accurate machine tools we have available today. At some point highly experienced machinists were making manual corrections to then build more accurate machines than what they were being machined and / or ground on. After that, then more knowledge and experienced were used to hand scrape them to even far higher levels of accuracy.

For almost all of us, what were buying for the smaller bench top sized machines will usually be good enough at our more hobby level, until it isn't. High accuracy work is obviously a bit different. There's hundreds if not thousands of posts on various forums mentioning lathe leveling or tramming a mill vise and head in. While obviously important, what about the rest of the machine? For example how many have ever checked just how true there mill tables Y axis is to it's X axis. Most seem to assume there perfect, they most definitely aren't unless it's by a lucky accident. Moore Tools in there book Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy very aptly illustrate that for any single machine tool slide, there's up to 6 possible directions of inaccuracy's that can be present, or even various combinations of some or all of them. A massive learning step for myself about those machine tool alignments and how to check them was finding this PDF. https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archi...s/Schlesinger_Georg/Testing_Machine_Tools.pdf I suspect a large amount in that PDF was used as the methods contained in the Connelly book Machine Tool Reconditioning. And without question it's methods have been used by every machine tool manufacturer world wide since it was first written in the 1930's and still are today. My last lathes certificate of accuracy was certainly based on those exact same Schlesinger's test methods.

I'd say the actual differences between something like an off shore mini mill and one of those Houser's, BCA's, Bolley's etc might be roughly comparable to the difference between a $200 off shore drill press and my Bridgeport clone. But with that test information, maybe some adjustments, shimming etc, plus already knowing where the limits of accuracy are. Then that extra knowledge and experience can wring a lot more out of these machines than they were ever really designed to do. I'm not suggesting that any of those light duty off shore machines will ever come close to what the OP is looking for, only that they can be much better than what comes out of the shipping crate. It's then up to the user to say if that's good enough or not.

Thank you for the information, and the PDF. I had not considered condition. Well, of course, I did! but, probably not as much as I should have. I got my lathe used, but with only an hour or two of runtime. Still, it is probably about as perfect as I can get when it comes to lathes for watchmaking. As far as quality control. (Michael Chung CZ50).

I know the cheap machines *can be* capable. Because I know of people who have made a watch using a Sherline lathe and mill. But, that is where tons of previous experience / knowledge, and modifications and setups come into play. Things that I, as a beginner, just don't know about general machining.
I am absolutely not against learning. I would love to know everything there is to know. However, at the moment, I think getting a good machine will eliminate a lot of the things that could go wrong by having machine issues. I just know how to measure, work with tolerances, read technical documents, etc.

I feel like I can maintain a good machine. But I cannot compensate to make a bad machine better. Without more knowledge than I have now.

I will be using a few older methods that watchmakers used to use though. For example, I have a depthing tool and uprighting tool I will rely on.
If I cannot sequentally and accurately drill all the location holes, I will go step by step for each one, and use the depthing tool, and bore them out on the lathe with centering scope.

Side note, thoughts on precision matthews mills?

 

[pete]

Fwiw, that capable word has many definitions and levels to many people. Read that PDF I linked to enough times until it starts to sink in. The 3 dimensional alignments and how they work together to end up with accurate parts isn't quite as intuitive as some seem to think. That testing and verification of what the machine already has for alignments, or adjustments and shimming to make it much better is I think time well spent.

The PM mills? I assume you mean the various bench top sized dovetail column mills? Ok I think, or can be made to work well enough. For watch making you'd have ample power, there maybe a little low on rpm for the smaller end mills, drills reamers etc. But that ideal high rpm isn't everything. I've used some pretty small cutting tools at well under the rpm the books recommend. It can still work fine, but being able to judge or even sense how the tool is cutting and that it isn't being overloaded is very important. Broken end mills are one of the tuition costs to gaining that experience. I think those bench top sized PM mills are also far better than something like the Seig mini mills. And I can say that after owning one of them. There better than no mill I guess, but not by much.

But the dovetail column mills all have a bit extra effort required to properly use them. That rear column has to be aligned so its true and vertical in both dimensions or axii. In other words not leaning towards or away from the mill table or leaning to either side. Once that's correct, then you tram the head to the table. If that column isn't correct, then the spindle centerline changes its alignment to your part as soon as you move the head up or down the column. Any known coordinents your working from are then just about useless unless you refind the datum surface you first used to start machining that part. Its just much easier to get that column correct and then forget about it. It can also take quite a while to do depending on just how far out it might be. And you can count on that column being out on all of those mills.

 

[ShopShoe]

It seems that there is an issue of Chicken or Egg here regarding purchasing a tool and learning to use it. Perhaps an available and affordable machine is a worthwhile investment while continuing to search for the real machine you want. That way, you can explore the compensations-for-limitations and adjustments required to get the best performance from what you have while you develop projects you might want to undertake. Then, when more higher-end options appear, you will be ready to get exactly what you need with what assets you have.

Examples abound among the YouTube presenters who seem to be acquiring better gear as they undertake more ambitious projects and as they are presented with chances to improve their shops.

--ShopShoe

 

[clockworkcheval]

Something to consider with the less stable hobby-type machines is yes, it is useful to start setting x to y to z right and then tramming the head, but this is something you do under no-load conditions. You may want to simulate the load once in a while by putting serious weight on the machine and then measure x to y to z plus tramming again to get a feel for the effect of load on your machine.

 

[ajoeiam]

Thank you for the information, and the PDF. I had not considered condition. Well, of course, I did! but, probably not as much as I should have. I got my lathe used, but with only an hour or two of runtime. Still, it is probably about as perfect as I can get when it comes to lathes for watchmaking. As far as quality control. (Michael Chung CZ50).

I know the cheap machines *can be* capable. Because I know of people who have made a watch using a Sherline lathe and mill. But, that is where tons of previous experience / knowledge, and modifications and setups come into play. Things that I, as a beginner, just don't know about general machining.
I am absolutely not against learning. I would love to know everything there is to know. However, at the moment, I think getting a good machine will eliminate a lot of the things that could go wrong by having machine issues. I just know how to measure, work with tolerances, read technical documents, etc.

I feel like I can maintain a good machine. But I cannot compensate to make a bad machine better. Without more knowledge than I have now.

I will be using a few older methods that watchmakers used to use though. For example, I have a depthing tool and uprighting tool I will rely on.
If I cannot sequentally and accurately drill all the location holes, I will go step by step for each one, and use the depthing tool, and bore them out on the lathe with centering scope.

Side note, thoughts on precision matthews mills?

I'd suggest that you get a machine.
In the using and asking questions (I was fortunate as I not only did an apprenticeship but also worked for some years) and watching others it is possible to learn things.

I was shown how to do bearing fits (+0.0000/-0.0005") on a lathe with some 0.012" in possible error.
Not a simple process and with enough butt pucker involved but it worked.
Where I worked at the time it was considered normal to compensate for worn if not almost worn out machinery.