starting 100% completely from scratch! what would be the best first few moves?

[G Jones]

Hello!

I'm planning on setting up a shop from scratch. I have a spinal cord injury so I'm on full time disability; this means I have nothing but time, money included

I can MAYBE spare 50-100 each month on a small purchase without cutting into my grocery money. Fortunately I have a few things in my favor. I can get scrap metal very cheap or free.
I have years of experience in specialty concrete casting, which is very similar to epoxy granite, and I have access to a local makers space to use larger tools when I get stuck on my projects at home or just cant quite get a part made without a big lathe.

What I want to do is this- Make a fully functional machine shop on the scale of sherline/taig hobby machines, starting with basic hand tools and working my way up to machine tools. I intend to buy a cheap surface plate and a cheap set of NIST gauge blocks.

So, the question is this - What would be the best project to begin with? I was thinking a dial indicator and the hand tools required to make it - namely a jewelers saw, some needles files, punches, a hammer, and some gravers.

If you had to start a shop from scrap one piece at a time, pretending you were starting with ancient tools, how would you work your way up? I figure I'd start with as much measuring tools as I can, and as accurate as I can (hence the surface plate/gauge blocks)

Please, I would love your input.
Cheers!

 

[metalmudler]

Hi G,

What I want to do is this- Make a fully functional machine shop

Wanting to make a fully functional machine shop would indicate that you wish to make something in that shop..
If you let people know what it is you wish to make people will be better able to guide you as to what tools for should be looking at first.

Metalwork like woodwork mainly consists of cutting metal to size, putting holes in it and joining it by various means.
I would say ditch the jewelers saw for a hacksaw, files you will need. Get a vice before jewelers saw! Ditch the gauge blocks to start with in favour of digital Vernier calipers.. Drill bits and some way to spin them would be nice to have handy rather than having to go to the makers space every time you need a hole somewhere (you will be drilling loads of holes). So ditch the surface plate in favour of an affordable secondhand drill press.

So, the question is this - What would be the best project to begin with? I was thinking a dial indicator and the hand tools required to make it

Making a dial indicator is not what I think of as a beginners project. You want a dial indicator to use right? Buy one off ebay for $10 delivered, otherwise making a fully functional machine shop as you intend, with the funds available will take more than many, many years. More like 6.8 lifetimes..

Good luck with your setup,
Paul

 

[G Jones]

Thanks for the input; I'm interested in horology and toolmaking in general. I intend to work mostly in brass and aluminum, and eventually have the requisite tools to make a simple clock, among other things.

I should have also explained myself a bit better - I'm by no means a beginner. I've mostly worked with wood , but I also have a few years experience in silversmithing. I've also been in and out of machine shops casually throughout the years.

I'm interested in approaching horology from a historic perspective. People were building highly accurate clocks 400 years ago with mostly handmade tools, and I want to try to follow that same path as much as possible.

As far as a dial indicator is concerned, I wouldn't expect to be making anything like a Starret or a Mitutoyo, but really all that comprises a simple one is a cylindrical rack, 2 pinions, 2-3 partial gears, and some springs to manage backlash.
Put it together then you can use the surface table/gauge block combo to measure your sensitivity and make a face plate with useful graduations.

I think the first step is to look and decide what tools I can't make, or are simply too tedious to make, and start saving for those.

 

[G Jones]

"Making a dial indicator is not what I think of as a beginners project. You want a dial indicator to use right? Buy one off ebay for $10 delivered, otherwise making a fully functional machine shop as you intend, with the funds available will take more than many, many years. More like 6.8 lifetimes.. "

I want to say, first off I have nothing but respect, and I truly hope that my disagreement doesn't come across as insult, but it really don't think that premise is true! (obviously several lifetimes is hyperbole)

My idea, thesis, whatever, is that if people were doing this 300 years ago - making machines to high tolerance and fitment, and using those machines to make amazing clocks and automatons, then I should be able to do the same in this day and age.


One more thing to mention - I'll be doing this all entirely on a desk in my bachelor suite, so any normal drill press is a no go. I'll be looking at plans for a miniature sensitive drill press, and to start most of my tools will be treddle powered.

 

[ShopShoe]

G.Jones,

For some inspirational ideas, go to Clickspring on YouTube. He has some interesting projects along your lines and also some small tools to make, although with more of a shop to start with. He does very fine detail work and the videos are produced very well.

This is not to downgrade any of the other excellent presenters on YouTube.

FYI, the start of my list would be the caliper (analog or digital), a 6-inch rule ("scale") some small machinists squares, some files, a hacksaw, and a vise. Some have used a piece of plate glass or a scrap of granite countertop for a surface plate, although the 9 x 12 size plates are not too expensive and can be easily shipped. (Buy your files from industrial suppliers, there are many sizes and shapes that the hardware store doesn't carry.)

You will also need a way to drill holes, but I guessing that you may have that already.

There are more things, but I wanted to keep the list short. When I was young and in school, I did not have much money, so I "invented" lots of ways to get things done until I could afford what I wanted.

Good Luck,

--ShopShoe

 

[stevehuckss396]

Do a google search for a guy named Arie kabaalstra. He hangs out at the CamBam site. He makes some super nice time pieces. Maybe locate him on one of the forums he hangs out at and quiz him as to what he uses and that may help you get an idea for what you should look for.

 

[metalmudler]

Hi G,

You are allowed to disagree and it was not taken as an insult. More a misunderstanding on my part really. When I think of a FULLY functional machine shop, I imagine cnc milling machines, plasma cutting tables, tig welders etc.. (Which probably would take 6.8 lifetimes for me to make ) I imagined all the modern tools available here in 2019, not what was used 300yrs ago, before the widespread use of electricity.

Thanks for clearing things up. What you have now explained, is that you want to setup a horologists workshop and use the tools and methods they used back then. Which will cost less and take way less time to setup than a fully functional machine shop of 2019 by making everything yourself.

Actually I saw a vid just the other day of an Indian fellow sitting in the dirt using his foot to operate a small wood lathe. He cut on the forward stroke and moved the tool off the job for the back stroke.. I thought that was pretty cool and I imagined his electricity bill to be really low

I have a 2400 x 700 workbench in my loungeroom and it is pretty tight for space so I hope you have a decent sized desk.

I think the first step is to look and decide what tools I can't make, or are simply too tedious to make, and start saving for those.

Yes i guess that is what i was trying to say regarding the $10 dial indicator. My guess is you would probably spend 10 bucks or more on materials or tools to make it.
I would suggest you write a list of the tools that come to mind, then check how much they cost, then weigh up whether you should/just want to make them or buy them like you said.
Also with your crook back I would be thinking of some organized storage close at hand for all the tools and stuff you will make or acquire.

Horology eh?.. I would never of thought (especially when you mention concrete casting).
Put that jewelers saw back on the list sir!

It sounds like an interesting journey you have ahead of yourself. Try and post some pics of the tools you make and methods used.

Paul

 

[goldstar31]

Hmmmm, well, Mr Jones, I take a different point of view.
I have known lots of watch and clockmakers. I recall my old youth club leader way back in the last war producing to us youngsters a - to us then- a 0-1" micrometer capable of measuring thousands of an inch. He demonstrated how thick a human hair was and also a finger nail. He had a set of turns and hadn't a lathe as such. Getting the facts into context, he was a ~Fellow of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Scotland and he was amongst other things an expert of bagpipe making and had a Bronze Age Skeleton in his 'den' and had a trepanned head which had been part of a post mortem. His collection is the basis of the Bagpipe Museum in Morpeth, Northumberland . He had preciously little gear to which you seem to refer.
At about 14 I made a jet engine and the little metering valve was turned on a very ancient Myford lathe and measured yet again with a 0-1" mike.
Moving on a bit, one of my Queen's Scouts went to Australia with all his possessions and tools of his trade which was a little watchmaker's lathe on top of a government surplus rucsac. That was it, but he was a kid that would wrap himself in his kilt and survive!

I'm a freemason, I am a mentor and can tell aspirants what little in equipment it takes to produce a medieval cathedral or something like the Apprentice's Pillar in Roslyn Chapel. Don't just settle for Dan Brown's version of things because there is quite a story!

Move to a few hours ago. I was as a modest Provincial Officer helping to serve dinner with 4 Grand Lodge officers. Sort of the Masters serving their apprentices. I collected my solid gold Waltham and chain from the former apprentice to the then President of the British Horological Society. He'd gold soldered my gold watch chain that I wear on my waistcoat too. So I asked him what lathe he used and he replied- an old U

I have a Mark 3 clone but his was the old one made with round bars. Well, he is getting my old Myford ML10 for which I being partly blind have no use for.

To conclude( ???) I am studying the new Quorn tool and cutter grinder and the odd thing on my old Mark 1 too, that it measures not with micrometer but with a set of truncated threads cut on my old lathe and the dividing and graduating was done- on a ONE hole division plate.

Well yes, I did economic history and the development of machine tools and all that sort of thing-- to become an accountant and I looked at my late wife's tool kit as a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons and noted her little 6" school ruler and nothing more than a Columbus Gauge.

So my suggestion is that you ought to re-think your present problems.
Regards

Norman

 

[kquiggle]

I had many of the same questions when I was getting started. The answers depend in part on the direction you ultimately decide to go, but there are some basic items which are probably common to most shops. Some time ago I put together a list - "Advice From A Newbie" - to document what I was learning as I went along. While it is certainly a good idea to get advice from experienced people, I thought it was also useful to learn from somebody new to machining (myself!), because the novice is more likely to bring up issues which the professionals consider too obvious to mention. Ther is a link to the article below. After I published it, I got some good criticism from various online forums like this one, and I updated the article accordingly (I continue to welcome any suggested additions or corrections). Hope this helps:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/advice-from-a-newbie

 

[minh-thanh]

Hi G Jones .
Welcome to the forum
There is a lot of valuable information here, and lots of members are here to help!
Back to your story
First, and always: you need a lathe, you can do it, (there are lots of videos on youtube about how to make your lathe yourself).
You can buy it, old or new does not matter
With my experience: what's important is that you know how to use it !!? You can do a lot of things with just a lathe .
With the tool: you just need the caliper
Pretty much my engines (stirling, steam, 2 stroke , 4 stroke ) are made with only lathe ,caliper , hand grinder and hand drill !
When you have 2 things like I said, you start a simple project. You will learn a lot with just the "oscillating engine".
And add: learn and be patient
Step by step !

 

[clockworkcheval]

Hi G,

Great intentions! It reminds me that Harrison was a woodworking craftsman before he designed his famous Seaclock out of the blue.
I'm a member of a local Dutch Horological Group. We have our own workshop with various machinetools. Members have their own personal toolkit. Our advice on handtools to new members is enclosed as 191025 HOROGY TOOL LIST.doc . You are right about the simple tools with which clocks were made. A common problem for our new members who migrate from Steam and Stirling to Horology is that their work is too precise - older clockwork must be a bit loose to work. Maybe you could start with a design of a wooden clock. It would allow you to handle all the typical clock components in a technique you already are familiar with. I think the move to metal would be easier after that.
Godspeed!

 

[metalmudler]

That list got me curious as to what it all would cost.
Had a bit of a look on eBay for the cheapest prices I could find just for an idea.
All prices are in AUD and include free postage.
Pin chuck with small keyless 3 jaw is about $3-4
Stainless steel ruler/scale $1

Looks like you could probably get most of that list in your first month!


· Caliper $15 (for stainless steel digital. metric to imperial conversion at the press of a button and zero/tare feature.)Analogue likely more expensive

· Micrometer $12 (0-25mm)

· Dial gauge with magnetic stand $10 dial indicator $15 magnetic stand

· Pupytaster (had to google that one

· Set of English reamers (conical reamers)

· Set of machine reamers dia 3-4-5-6 and 8 mm $10

· Drill sets 1 (0,1) 6 mm and 1 (0,5) 13 mm, one for Steel and one for Brass $30 upwards for each set

· Jewelers saw $6-7 (blades 12 for $3)

· Fretsaw

· Toolbits to make lathe tools $1 upwards dependent on size/profile (ebay search HSS+lathe. Sort: price and postage lowest first)

· Taps and dies plus holders M2-3-4-5 $15-20(can be bought separate or in sets)

· Set of files for Steel and for Brass $10-20

· Set of key files for Steel and for Brass $2.50 5pc $5 10pc delivered (the ones I have from China are hard and do snap when mistreated, not bend)

· Compass divider $5 (spring type)

· Sandpaper 400-500-600-1000-2000

· Steelwool

· Small vise $6 upward

 

[propclock]

Make friends with an old machinist, there are more old machines than young
operators. Most geezers , me included, like to promote the knowledge/equipment.
So my best advice is , find a mentor. I have always managed to become attached
to those that know more than me, just my 1.414 cents worth.

 

[tornitore45]

I understand the desire to travel through the historical process of building something, it can be a worthwhile and exciting adventure BUT one has to consider that the development of technology did not happen in one guy lifetime but it took thousand of years and the combined talent sweat and tears of thousand of craftsmen.
Starting with a surface plate, gauge blocks and a file or two means that one already was "born" into the 1880 (Johansson blocks were nor available until 1900)
At this point why not move the technology starting baseline another 70 years or so and start with a lathe. The ability of making round fitting parts and cut screws will allow to bypass 10 lifetimes of building basic hand tools before starting a clock.

 

[Wizard69]

"Making a dial indicator is not what I think of as a beginners project. You want a dial indicator to use right? Buy one off ebay for $10 delivered, otherwise making a fully functional machine shop as you intend, with the funds available will take more than many, many years. More like 6.8 lifetimes.. "

A dial indicator isn’t a beginners project a thought that everybody can agree on. My problem with this is that even 300 years ago a clock builder would not of made everything himself. We really need to determine the goals here because making your own dial indicator right off the bat is a waste of time in my opinion if your goal is a machine shop for clock making.

Now that doesn’t mean that you won’t be making tools to support your Horological endeavors, you will in fact make lots of them. Those will be tools specialized for the craft though.

You should only consider DIY generic tools when there is a skills building opportunity or a significant cost savings to be had. In most cases it is hard to beat new or used prices via a DIY approach. So I look at DIY generic tools as skills builders only. A tap wrench is a perfect example, a good place to learn but these are dime a dozen.

I want to say, first off I have nothing but respect, and I truly hope that my disagreement doesn't come across as insult, but it really don't think that premise is true! (obviously several lifetimes is hyperbole)

Everybody has their own understanding of what a shop is so I doubt think people take misunderstandings as insults.

I’m not sure if you have heard of the series but an author named Dave Gingery wrote an entire series of little books about building an entire machine shop from scrape aluminum. I’ve read most of the series and frankly there is stuff to learn in the series. The big problem is this, are such endeavors cost effective these days?? These days Chinese iron is cheap and old used machinery even cheaper. Does it really make sense to build a lathe DIY these days. The real value comes from the learning process in my opinion.

Someone already mentioned Clickspring which is more aligned with your interests. His videos are excellent even if slow in coming. Even here he uses a good commercial lathe to allow him to focus on clock work and the tools required there.

My idea, thesis, whatever, is that if people were doing this 300 years ago - making machines to high tolerance and fitment, and using those machines to make amazing clocks and automatons, then I should be able to do the same in this day and age.

Absolutely but these people did not build everything themselves. Metals where purchased for example. A blacksmith might be engaged for tools. The only thing I want to point out is that there are plenty of tools to build already to setup your shop. It is just a bit foolish to make what you can buy. This especially when the shop isn’t even off the ground.

One more thing to mention - I'll be doing this all entirely on a desk in my bachelor suite, so any normal drill press is a no go. I'll be looking at plans for a miniature sensitive drill press, and to start most of my tools will be treddle powered.

treadled powered tools create an interesting problem in that how do you mount them on the desk. That is connect to drive system. Treadle powered tools of old usually had the treadle system integrated into the machine. It will be interesting to see what you come up with!!

watch makers at least, commonly did all machining on their lathes. If you want a treadle powered shop I really think it needs to be built around a lathe. The question then becomes do you build that lathe or retrofit one. I’d go with a retro fit simply to get the benefit of iron. Oh and modern bearings which should allow better treadle performance.

Best of luck on this adventure.

 

[holmes_ca]

G JONES,
put your $100 away for 5 months and you have enough to get yourself going with a new Taig lathe and a milling attachment that is what Taig is all about maki9ng your own tools to increase its versatility,

 

[ShopShoe]

FWIW,

I have often thought about the possibility of mounting a Taig lathe to the stand part of an old treadle-powered sewing machine. Roy Underhill made one of his wood lathes from one. He has also made other human-powered wood lathes and also has a treadle metal lathe. Google him if you are interested.

The Taig lathe can be bought in pieces, without a motor, for not much money. I have considered doing so, but have to watch both my money and time budgets very carefully these days.

www.taigtools.com

Another thing no one has mentioned here that may be interesting to you is the Universal Pillar Tool that comes from Britain. Probably beyond what you need now, but interesting for what it can do as a multipurpose tool. I think you would need help from someone with a shop already or at a maker space to put one together. Another thing in my mind, but not my budget right now.

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Universal_Pillar_Tool.html

Let us know how you progress with your shop adventures and we will be glad to continueto answer what questions you may have.

--ShopShoe

 

[swood1]

If you are going to buy tools and equipment for clock size working I would recommend a Unimat SL if you can get your hands on one with accessories to convert to pillar drill or something similar. I only recommend the SL because it was the machine I was told to get when I set out in watch and clock repairs. It has served me very well during this time.

I now have two, one setup as a lathe, the other setup as a small drill press.

Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[goldstar31]

I've just been in my workshop/garage and my UPT
I doubt that the Taig would swing the bases and the big castings. As regards the Unimat SL, I had one years ago and it certainly wouldn't manage one. Actually I'm giving my watchmaker friend who has a SL my Unimat clone- for services rendered! He told me the value of a Waltham in solid gold which hd not been used since 1938.

WOW!!

Me, I'd go for a little Myford ML10 which despite the age will probably not have had much wear. I'm getting rid of mine but I'm in the UK

Frankly, I'd get a Sieg C4 rather than the 7X14 and second hand. True you don't have the feel of a Myford but they are generally well made and spares are available.

My thoughts- others may differ----- but I've been in this game--- a very long time

Norman

 

[goldstar31]

I had a think- again. As regards the Unimat SL etc there is an old book called 'Making the Most of the Unimat' by Rex Tingey. Tingey was born in the same year as me( 1930) and both of us are ex Royal Air Force 'types' and we both received 'indifferent education' because of the War.

Having said that Tingey takes the through all sorts of accessories including home made rotary tables, steadies,, vertical slides and so forth. For the beginner with little money, it's great read.

I had it on my computer and claim old age etc for forgetting it

Norman